Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Air Wales To Drop CWL-BRU  
User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19233 posts, RR: 52
Posted (10 years 5 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 2666 times:

Just heard on the Wales new channel that Air Wales is to stop its CWL-BRU service from 14th April due to it being a "poor taker" (I understand that to mean it can't fill the seats at the required price). It will relocate resources to domestic routes. Any idea if it will add frequencies on current routes from the Welsh airport or start new ones?


"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
27 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDiesel1 From UK - Wales, joined Mar 2001, 1638 posts, RR: 11
Reply 1, posted (10 years 5 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 2605 times:

Disappointing news, but perhaps not unexpected given Air Wales' history on route launches...

BBC says that Air Wales looking at 3 new domestic routes, more news to follow in Summer.

As far as redeploying resources to domestic routes, since there were only 4 flights a week (not quite the same as the twice daily SWS / CWL service first announced...), not really much to redeploy.



I don't like signatures...
User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19233 posts, RR: 52
Reply 2, posted (10 years 5 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 2596 times:

"BBC says that Air Wales looking at 3 new domestic routes, more news to follow in Summer."

Do you think these "3 new domestic routes" will be from CWL? If so, to where? If not, where and to where?



"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlineCambrian From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 619 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (10 years 5 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 2584 times:

That is bad news for CWL- as the capital city of Wales, an air link to the heart of the EU is surely needed?

But the timings that Air Wales gave this route doomed it to failure from the start.

From Brussels TO CARDIFF


MWF 18:35 19:20
Su 18:35 19:20



To Brussels FROM CARDIFF

MWF 15:10 17:55

Su 15:10 17:55



Air Wales should have allowed for early morning and late afternoon daily services to allow for day trips on this route. With these timings it is not surprising that the route is being pulled.







User currently offlineDiesel1 From UK - Wales, joined Mar 2001, 1638 posts, RR: 11
Reply 4, posted (10 years 5 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 2542 times:

Good question Pe@rson...

The quote attributed to Roy Thomas, Air Wales MD on the Cardiff airport website is:
"On a more positive note, our association with BMI baby has already proved extraordinarily successful, and our other domestic routes are also proving extremely popular with passenger numbers growing by the day. As a result, this is where the Airline's focus will lie in the short term, and we're currently looking at three prospective new routes within the UK; if all goes well we should have some exciting news later on this summer."

Certainly doesn't read like it's a dead cert that CWL will get all of the routes...

If they (CWL) get anything, then the ABZ route has to be an option - is it too soon for the North>South Wales airlink? Other than these two I can't think what is left for Air Wales to try that has real potential from CWL.
Outside of Cardiff, expanded ops from SWS are a possibility.
Further afield, there are no Plymouth to Scotland or Northern Ireland links so some scope here?

Overall, I hope 'looking at three prospective new routes' means they are doing some proper investigation into potential loads and getting a decent marketing plan in place?




I don't like signatures...
User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19233 posts, RR: 52
Reply 5, posted (10 years 5 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 2525 times:

Well, BRS needs an ABZ route, so perhaps 6G could provide the service from CWL.

There was talk of a CWL-RAF Valley service (heard it on the news), which would surely be subsidised. It would certainly be welcomed by me.

Surely a CWL-BHD or CWL-Swansea-BHD service is necessary?

BE serves both EDI and GLA non-stop from EXT (my 'home' airport) using DH4s. Accordingly, I am unsure about whether there would be sufficient demand to warrant a daily service (which would be necessary to be useful and competitive) to both cities from PLH. BE is also looking at EXT-NCL, AMS and CDG services. If it doesn't commence any of these, perhaps 6G could operate them from PLH. Who knows?

[Edited 2004-04-06 13:37:17]


"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlineDiesel1 From UK - Wales, joined Mar 2001, 1638 posts, RR: 11
Reply 6, posted (10 years 5 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 2491 times:

I'd discounted BHD from CWL as Air Wales had already tried and failed - also it would be in direct competition with bmibaby's CWL-BFS route, and I don't think they'd want this as they're in bed together...

No ABZ-BRS service makes this seem like an even better idea

Who knows what airfield will be used for the trans Wales link - I think RAF Valley is in the wrong place.
Hawarden would be a better bet as it's closer to the main areas of population - not 100% it's in Wales though...hmmm.
If it's not in Wales it won't be used, even if it's the 'right' airfield...

Caernarfon is another option, but unsure how large an aircraft the 'field there can take - probably not an ATR-42?

That flyBE operate to Scotland from EXT probably knocks a PLH > Scotland service on the head (but with Air Wales' route planning, who knows...), how about from PLH to LCY instead ?







I don't like signatures...
User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19233 posts, RR: 52
Reply 7, posted (10 years 5 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 2457 times:

Yeah, I've wondered why no PLH-LCY service exists, as it might be worthwhile for the businessperson, so long as it's timed properly to enable a full day of business in both cities. Therefore, a twice-weekday service would be essential, and perhaps once on a Sunday (in the evening).


"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlineTrident2e From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (10 years 5 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 2416 times:

I think Air Wales are a very unprofessional outfit. They withdrew their much-hyped LPL services after a matter of weeks and with very little notice and now they are withdrawing the BRU service in a similar manner. I certainly won't be flying with them.

User currently offlineCambrian From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 619 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (10 years 5 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 2404 times:

The BRU route failed because they cannot offer day returns when business travellers want. I am willing to bet that lots of people within the CWL catchment are using SN's BRS-BRU service instead.

I agree that Air Wales seems to have a cavalier approach to setting up new routes.
CWL-BRU is surely a no brainer given the MEP's and AM's concentrated in Cardiff, and they can't even get that right. Their timings are bizarre and their fares are too high to attract leisure travellers.

I hope that the Air Wales bubble isn't about to burst, as CWL needs a decent scheduled carrier.


User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19233 posts, RR: 52
Reply 10, posted (10 years 5 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 2373 times:

I agree that Air Wales needs a kick in the right direction.

About offering day trips from CWL to BRU - this would obviously necessitate two weekday flights. Do you honestly think that there would be sufficient demand for two AT4-operated services per weekday, thus about 100 people in each direction per day and 500 per week?



"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlineHorus From Egypt, joined Feb 2004, 5230 posts, RR: 59
Reply 11, posted (10 years 5 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 2360 times:

How are their flights on the Swansea/CWL-LCY route doing?


EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
User currently offlineCapital146 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2003, 2125 posts, RR: 44
Reply 12, posted (10 years 5 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 2347 times:

Time for my biased hat.
How about a CWL-LBA-ABZ service? Two major UK cities currently unserved from CWL. Much as I hate to suggest a competitor for T3 (my former employers) on the LBA-ABZ sector, 6G would most likely be able to offer cheaper fares and pick up extra passengers at LBA.

Biased hat off.
Maybe a CWL-PLH-GCI service could also be considered as both CWL and PLH have had strong links to JER over the years but have none to neighbouring GCI at present.



Like a fine wine, one gets better with age.
User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19233 posts, RR: 52
Reply 13, posted (10 years 5 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 2313 times:

The Baby does indeed fly CWL-BFS-CWL, but it's timings are poor (to say the least) and not conducive to a day trip:





Cardiff to Belfast (Intl)

Dep Arr Days of Service Flt No From To
M T W T F S S
12:05 13:05 WW 5117 01-Jan-04 26-Mar-04


16:30 17:30 WW 5117 26-Oct-03 21-Mar-04


10:15 11:15 WW 5231 08-Sep-04 09-Sep-04


10:15 11:15 WW 5233 29-Mar-04 07-Sep-04


10:15 11:15 WW 5233 10-Sep-04 29-Oct-04


13:30 14:30 WW 5233 08-Sep-04 09-Sep-04


20:05 21:05 WW 5233 28-Mar-04 24-Oct-04




Belfast (Intl) to Cardiff

Dep Arr Days of Service Flt No From To
M T W T F S S
13:30 14:30 WW 5118 01-Jan-04 26-Mar-04


17:55 18:55 WW 5118 26-Oct-03 21-Mar-04


11:40 12:40 WW 5234 29-Mar-04 07-Sep-04


11:40 12:40 WW 5234 10-Sep-04 29-Oct-04


11:45 12:45 WW 5232 08-Sep-04 09-Sep-04


14:55 15:55 WW 5234 08-Sep-04 09-Sep-04


---

Air Wales could compete quite effectively on the CWL-Belfast route by having an early morning and late afternoon/early evening flight, and also by serving the more convenient City airport. Perhaps this:

CWL-BHD:

1234567 0630 - 0740
1234567 1730 - 1840

BHD-CWL:

1234567 0805 - 0915
1234567 1905 - 2020

I believe the airline is (or was) doing well on its flights from CWL to DUB as it has better-timed flights, unlike FR's.



"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlineCambrian From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 619 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (10 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 2298 times:

Pe@rson,

You are absolutely right- the current FR timings on the CWL-DUB route are a gift to Air Wales. That is why I maintain that the CWL-BRU route could work with 2 daily rotations allowing for business people to make day trips.

I think that CWL could sustain this route- I already mentioned that Cardiff has lots of government agencies.

How come SN Brussels operates successfully from BRS?

Would SN be interested in taking over the CWL service?


User currently offlineSabenapilot From Belgium, joined Feb 2000, 2714 posts, RR: 46
Reply 15, posted (10 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 2264 times:

Cambrian,
The reason SN can successfully operate 3 daily return flights from nearby BRS (thus offering around 250 to 300 seats on a daily basis) is mainly thanks to pax connecting in BRU to one of the many other European/African destinations SN has. I think only roughly 1 out of every 3 pax is an origin to destination pax on this route. SN offers a very convenient flight schedule, an excellent service and on time performance at very competitive fares. Seems SN was simply too much of a competitor for Air Wales.

[Edited 2004-04-06 23:58:19]

User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19233 posts, RR: 52
Reply 16, posted (10 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 2259 times:

Yeah, a twice-weekday CWL-BRU might be OK, if like this:

CWL-BRU:

123456 0610 - 0840
12345 7 1730 - 2000

BRU-CWL:

123456 0905 0935
12345 7 2025 - 2055

Not brilliant times (esp. the 0610 departure), but if you want to have a full day in either city then you will have to make to - a later departure would be less convenient. I am not sure whether a Saturday service would be necessary, but a Sunday evening rotation might be. These timings would obviously mean that the aircraft would be free for most of the day, so new routes or additional frequencies would need to be sought to ensure fleet and staff utilisation.



"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlineSabenapilot From Belgium, joined Feb 2000, 2714 posts, RR: 46
Reply 17, posted (10 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2245 times:

Well done, but that's a pure copy of the SN timetable Pe@rson!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

BRS-BRU
123456. 0635-0845
12345.. 1050-1255
12345.7 1630-1840

BRU-BRS
12345.. 0950-1010
12345.7 1535-1550
12345.7 2040-2050

Besides, you are still stuck with some very big 'problems' then....
-) 2 iso 3 rotations, thus less flexibility.
-) only origin to destination traffic.
-) turboprop vs. jet.
-) remote parking stand at BRU.
-) competitive fares on SN
-) As SN is the only airline linking BRU (HQ of the Commission) with SXB (seat of EU Parliament), virtually ALL pax related to the EU are member of SN's FFP and thus travel under special conditions (more luggage, upgrade, ...). so these people will not easily be persuaded not to fly SN.

In short: there might have possibly been a niche market to support 2 daily return flights between CWL and BRU for origin-to-destination traffic only, but with SN serving BRS, it simply stands no chance.







User currently offlineGKirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24938 posts, RR: 56
Reply 18, posted (10 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2229 times:

A CWL-BRU route surely wouldnt be completly viable without the feed that SN offers, hence while SN operate BRS-BRU, CWL-BRU will most likely fail, even with 50 seat ATR42s.
I hear Plymouth-CWL-NCL-CWL-Plymouth is starting to do very well though



When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
User currently offlineTrintocan From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2000, 3238 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (10 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2222 times:

It's sad to hear that 6G is dropping yet another of their expansion routes. It seems though that SN in BRS manages a similar set-up as KL in CWL - namely providing links to other services from their respective hubs (BRU and AMS respectively). In that regard they can maintain 2 or 3 daily flights and still be competitive unlike stand-alone Air Wales. This is unfortunate but Air Wales is looking a bit wobbly right now. The trouble is that BRS has a much larger catchment population than CWL (and in fact it captures a large slice of South Wales air traffic) despite its short runway.

As for Hawarden, it is entirely in Wales, just across the Dee from Wirral. Then again, LPL is not all that far away from there and is another large catchment area, if CWL-LPL failed one wonders what traffic is there from Hawarden. Valley seems an even longer shot.

TrintoCan.



Hop to it, fly for life!
User currently offlineScottishLaddie From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2004, 2384 posts, RR: 8
Reply 20, posted (10 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2206 times:

I think a Swansea-EDI route could work, or somewhere in west Wales, (Valley)?

User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19233 posts, RR: 52
Reply 21, posted (10 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 2192 times:

"Well done, but that's a pure copy of the SN timetable Pe@rson!"

I'll have you know I referred to no such timetable. Pure guesswork - and a pretty good one at that.  Smile



"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlineFlycro From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 376 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (10 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 2179 times:

Air Wales live in dream world, they think up routes, open them with dodgy timetables and wonder why they don't work. Plus the ATR-42 doesn't help matters, small cramped and no rival for other companies jets. Having Bristol down the road also doesn't help matters.

User currently offlineDiesel1 From UK - Wales, joined Mar 2001, 1638 posts, RR: 11
Reply 23, posted (10 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 2180 times:

Scottish Laddie.. get your atlas out - Valley is in North Wales  Smile

Trintocan... thanks for my geography lesson!  Big thumbs up You're right though - why should LPL fail and Hawarden work? Guess it depends on how much cross Wales subsidised Welsh Assembly traffic could be generated?

As far BRU flights go, BA (Manx/British Regional/Citiexpress) flights seemed fairly well patronised - the failure is down to Air Wales I'm afraid

CWL - BHD... just can't see it. bmibaby have already driven Air Wales off the route once. Remember BFS is also owned by tbi (owners of CWL) so you can be sure there's a good deal going on with landing charges etc..



I don't like signatures...
User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19233 posts, RR: 52
Reply 24, posted (10 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 2146 times:

Yeah, Diesel, but I bet Air Wales' former CWL-BHD was poorly time and not conducive to a day trip - just like WW's. If it was timed with businesspeople in mind and was competitively priced, it could work - especially as it would serve the convenient City airport.


"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
25 Diesel1 : Pe@rson From what I remember timings weren't great - neither were BA's when they flew the route and had to operate the route as a stop enroute to ABZ
26 Post contains images ScottishLaddie : Diesel, North-West actually
27 Post contains images Pe@rson : "must be down to the deal..." Doesn't everyone complain when FR obtains deals? I think so.
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Air Wales To Cease Operations posted Thu Mar 23 2006 15:13:54 by Gkirk
Air Wales To Start EXT-ORK! posted Tue Nov 8 2005 14:31:02 by SQNo1
Air Wales To Start NCL-ABZ posted Mon Oct 17 2005 20:21:43 by Gkirk
Air Wales' ABZ-LPL-CWL-PLH Service posted Sun Feb 20 2005 17:53:38 by Pe@rson
Air Wales To Liverpool posted Tue Oct 26 2004 16:40:28 by SamL
Air Wales' LPL/NCL-CWL-PLH Route posted Sat Dec 13 2003 17:42:14 by Pe@rson
Air Wales Drop Routes Before They Start posted Mon Feb 20 2006 22:19:49 by Humberside
Air Jamaica "wrong To Drop Manchester" posted Fri Dec 9 2005 12:18:35 by Oly720man
Freedom Air To Drop Melbourne posted Thu Sep 15 2005 07:57:36 by VHTAE
Estonian Air To Drop MUC, Start MAN, BGY posted Sat Mar 12 2005 00:39:13 by OV735