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Frontier To Move To Lambert's D  
User currently offlineLambertMan From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2077 posts, RR: 36
Posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3647 times:

Well I called it.....

Frontier Airlines to move to Lambert's D Concourse
Frontier Airlines is continuing to establish itself in St. Louis by moving its service to the D Concourse at Lambert-St. Louis International Airport effective Wednesday.

The Denver-based airline, which currently operates out of Concourse A, expects the move to give its passengers easier access to their gates. The airline has recently announced increases to its service from St. Louis to Denver, Los Angeles and Cancun, Mexico.

"Frontier's growing presence in St. Louis is representative of the renewed interest in this market," said Leonard Griggs, director of Lambert, in a statement. "Frontier's move to Concourse D will help to relieve the lengthy line of passengers which have frequently emerged at our Concourse A security check point," he said.

The D Concourse had been occupied by American Airlines before it downsized its service to St. Louis and moved to the C Concourse.

Looks like they are going to give F9 room to grow at Lambert by allocating them as many gates in D as they'd like. Looks good for future growth by F9 and hopefully we'll see MCO and LGA come online at some point in time as hinted by Mariner.

60 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineQuickmover From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 2494 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3626 times:

" Looks good for future growth by F9 and hopefully we'll see MCO and LGA come online at some point in time as hinted by Mariner."

I think they would make a killing on both of those routes, not to mention the possibility for connections further west to DEN, LAX, or CUN.


User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8385 posts, RR: 10
Reply 2, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3609 times:

On the other hand, does anyone think that the only reason they're expanding in St. Louis is because they can't get more space in DEN? If there were to be a turn around in DEN and F9 got the gates they want, would it make sense to maintain another hub in St.Louis, so close to DEN?

User currently offlineUltrapig From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 585 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3595 times:
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This is like shuffling the Chairs on the Titanic-Colonel "Mustache" Griggs a political appointee has let the terminal go down hill while he was running it-they can't even keep the moving sidewalks going-or the ceiling from leading!

As for the lines a Concourse A-yes they were huge-but why couldn't the airport through Colonel do something before this-and don't give me its not his department nonsense-my complaint to TSA means nothing his should have-

While screeners were sitting with their hands in their pockets on Con. D there were long lines at A

And as you all note STL wasn't mentioned by Airtran WN or Jet Blue-given the vacuum at Lambert this says something about either the airport, its management or the number of O&DE there-



User currently offlineLambertMan From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2077 posts, RR: 36
Reply 4, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3590 times:

Talking about a hub is getting a bit ahead of ourselves, I would be happy to see it be a five city station by this time next year. The future for Frontier here does look good, and hopefully they will creep around the big scAAred wolf (they act is if they are scared of LCC's in STL as they back down). However, we could be overlooking the primary reason for F9 making this move, lack of office space. There basically is none at F9's current position in STL, I may even expect HP to follow them to D. HP occupies STL's b*stard gate.

User currently offlineAtcboy73 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 1100 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3549 times:

I called the Customer Relations number at Frontier and spoke with a nice lady who asked around a wasn't able to come up with any info as to which gates or how many they would be taking.

She said it might still be in the works and that maybe the media just got a hold of it before it was final.

Anyone here have any concrete info on which gates will be used?


User currently offlinePilotpip From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3150 posts, RR: 11
Reply 6, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3532 times:

The gates at the very far West end of D are the only ones that are still there. I think there were still three there. I can't recall though. Regardless, they are adding two more flights to DEN, and starting LAX and CUN service soon. I flew on them once, standby, and was very impressed with how nice everybody was. I don't think that the space in DEN is an issue, the airline is expanding service in a few other markets as well.


DMI
User currently offlineQuickmover From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 2494 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3509 times:

Are you saying two more flights to DEN for a total of 4 dailys or just two as they have now? I hadn't heard about those flights, but I'm not surprised considering that American only uses RJs on the route now. F9s product is much better.
As far as where on D the gates are, I can't understand why they wouldn't take gates that are close to the security checkpoint by the food court. Thats a long long walk down D unless maybe they are thinking about using the east checkpoint.


User currently offlineAlphascan From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 937 posts, RR: 13
Reply 8, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3465 times:

Airbazar:

The gate issue at DEN was settled at the end of last year. F9 got a few of UA's A Concourse gates temporarily while the city expands F9's end of the concourse. Some of those gates will be available this summer via extended jetways.

F9 management is on record saying the agreement reached will allow it to grow as planned. I am assuming that means their growth will NOT be inhibited by the gate issue at DEN.



"To he who only has a hammer in his toolbelt, every problem looks like a nail."
User currently offlineUAL747DEN From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2392 posts, RR: 11
Reply 9, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3449 times:

DEN is giving F9 all the gate space they want. They are even building a new Regional Jet Center for them. Space is not an issue anymore. F9 is expanding is a few markets and this is just another one of them. It is way to close to DEN for them to use it as a hub. F9 just sees potential here and is taking advantage of it. If F9 is to open another hub it will be on the east somewhere.


/// UNITED AIRLINES
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25292 posts, RR: 85
Reply 10, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3416 times:
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Quickmover:

"...we'll see MCO and LGA come on line at some point in time, as hinted by mariner."

Just to set the record straight, I don't recall mentioning STL/MCO - I may have, though, and I think it may be a good idea. I just don't know enough about STL.

The reason I posted STL/LGA was because Sean Menke, head of marketing at F9, said they were looking at it.

It would be a head butt with AA, of course, and I'm not sure what they'd do about slots at LGA - but why would he mention it if it wasn't under consideration?

cheers

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineSegmentKing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3404 times:

Frontier's only hub will remain to be Denver. All the other cities will just be focal points, or cities with lots of flights (meaning, strictly O/D).

Good move Potter!

-n


User currently offlineMSYtristar From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 6570 posts, RR: 51
Reply 12, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3379 times:

Having several "focus cities" around the country is a good way for us to get our name out there. Our home will always be DEN and rightfully so, but there are obvious oppurtunities elsewhere that we are going to exploit. Our product is a good fit for any major business/leisure market.

FYI, we just took delivery of two new a/c....one A318 and one A319, ships 805 and 926, respectively.


Steve/MSY


User currently offlineLambertMan From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2077 posts, RR: 36
Reply 13, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3345 times:

A superior product is what in my mind has won customers on the DEN-STL route. Before when AA was running 757's against F9's Mesa CRJ's, there was no competition and nobody even knew who F9 was in STL. Now that they have triumpthantly returned, offering as most people like to call them "little tv's in the headrests", people know who they are, and in some cases are going out of their way to fly F9. Hence, the success of the DEN route.

STL-LGA would be easy pickings for F9 assuming that they could do it, it's a heavy route w/ around 1400 pax per day and has only 5 AA S80's on it.

BTW, I'm liking the idea of a STL-DEN-LAX (small focus-hub-large focus) idea right now, very well balanced and well thought out. I would assume that this move into D has meanings for future growth right?


User currently offlineQuickmover From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 2494 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3290 times:

Mariner,

I was quoting another poster who was quoting you. Sorry for the mix up.

LGA would be great, but I agree that it will be a problem to get slots. I think that there is a resentment in STL against AA since they cut service and those customers are looking for alternatives besides Southwest. I truly believe there are some people that won't fly SWA regardless of their "media darling" status. The F9 product head to head against SWA is no contest in F9s favor. Frontier is not as well known but that is changing. The media loves JBLU as well, but I can't see anything that they offer that F9 doesn't offer except frequency up and down the east coast.


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25292 posts, RR: 85
Reply 15, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3276 times:
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According to two F9 staff who have posted on the Yahoo board, the gates are D4 and D6 with the first flight in tonight, April 7.

Quickmover:

Yes, after I had posted I re-read the thread and saw you were quoting LambertMan. It was early here and I still hadn't had my first coffee.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

cheers

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineInnocuousFox From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2805 posts, RR: 14
Reply 16, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3230 times:

"would it make sense to maintain another hub in St.Louis, so close to DEN?"

So close? You are kidding me, right? That's about a thousand miles right there.



Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!
User currently offlineJmy007 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 598 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3216 times:

"would it make sense to maintain another hub in St.Louis, so close to DEN?"


Then I would guess DFW and ORD are way to close as well  Big grin




Cookies are the Gateway pastry. They lead to Éclairs and Bear Claws.
User currently offlineInnocuousFox From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2805 posts, RR: 14
Reply 18, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3197 times:

ATL-DFW
ATL-CVG
ORD-IAD

... all current hub pairs that are lots closer than STL-DEN. In fact, ORD-DEN is not much farther than STL-DEN.



Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25292 posts, RR: 85
Reply 19, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3187 times:
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I very much doubt that you will see an Eastern hub for Frontier at any time in the foreseeable future.

This (long) article from the Rocky Mountain News gives the history of the decision to expand at LAX:

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/business/article/0,1299,DRMN_4_2779794,00.html

One of the key points is that Frontier thinks they are a "Western" airline, and they weren't keen on an Eastern hub.

I think they're right. The East Coast is shaping up as a blood bath. The arrival of Independence Air isn't going to make things any easier over there.

My guess, and it's only a guess, is that Frontier will continue on thir present path - some expansion at LAX, but also some expansion of point to point services from cities such as STL.

cheers

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineInnocuousFox From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2805 posts, RR: 14
Reply 20, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3162 times:

Lambert... you and I did call it correctly a few months back, though. All the available capacity at STL won't go unused for long. Other carriers will gradually move in to take advantage of cheap gates and untapped O&D.


Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!
User currently offlineLambertMan From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2077 posts, RR: 36
Reply 21, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3110 times:

Thanks for that article Mariner, it was a good read. I will agree that there will be no "hub" (at least in the near future), but as I said up top, I would like it to be a five city station by this time next year. There are a number of destinations that would be easily done from STL by undercutting AA on their "prize"(not prize, but the best they've got) routes out of STL. I would almost assume that F9 stay off AA's turf here in STL because we could have a big problem if AA gets upset. A focus city would be great in my book (For an airline the size of F9, 5-6 cities would be one), a decent amount of service w/o cutting into AA's new found yield in St Louis.

User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25292 posts, RR: 85
Reply 22, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3090 times:
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LambertMan:

If we assume there is any truth to the rumor about STL/LGA, then that gives you four cities from STL - DEN/LAX/CUN/LGA.

Which makes a very nice, if very small, route map from STL - cross country and one international. And, for New Yorkers, CUN might be quicker through STL than DEN.

I do agree that it would be best if F9 stayed out of AA's turf (excluding LGA and CUN, of course), but where would they go that doesn't cut into AA?

I can think of a couple, and at least one of those isn't in the US, but beyond that I'm a bit stumped.

As I said, I don't know STL all that well.

cheers

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineQuickmover From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 2494 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3082 times:

Lambertman,

I remember back in 2000 when AA decided to come to STL and try out a few of TWA's "prized routes". They started with 3 daily STL-LAX, a few STL-LGA. I can't remember if there were others, but maybe STL-PHL. Within a year TWA was purchased. Isn't it funny how things go full circle and now AA is on the receiving end of "cherry picking"?


User currently offlineAtcboy73 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 1100 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3064 times:

Only two gates. I was hoping for at least 4 so that we could have an indication of more expansion. But two isn't bad and its much better than the situation they have now on A.

I flew out on CO a few months ago and it seemed they were in a very temporary situation on A.

Could we see STL-BOS, PHL, DCA and ATL after more gates are oppened with out upsetting AA? And who knows, maybe AA would add capacity as the market gets bigger due to Frontiers competitive fares.


25 LambertMan : Quick, That's odd, I don't ever remember hearing about AA on those routes, but I really wouldn't doubt it w/ AA's extensive point to point network ove
26 Mariner : LambertMan: I hadn't thought of Florida. I assumed that AA had that pretty well covered from STL. Howsumever, F9 does very well DEN/Florida during the
27 Post contains images LambertMan : Mariner, RSW seems to kind of be a sleeper market that always slips under the radar. I know almost all the ins and outs of the AA sched at STL and I t
28 Quickmover : Lambertman, You're right about the loyalty that AA inherited. Some people value those FF miles more than gold and if they have to connect at ORD or DF
29 Luv2fly : I would imagine AA will defend there turf and routes at STL! Tho IMHO I believe that the hubs of MIA, DFW and ORD are still more important than STL to
30 Ultrapig : Lambertman: St Louis won't see much more traffic until either (a) the economy not only rebounds but business traffic goes beyond the 1990's level and
31 LambertMan : Ultrapig, I'm not saying that we'll see that much more air traffic. I realize that we had no reason to have a 522 flight a day hub. Our O/d traffic is
32 InnocuousFox : "Bottom line this is America and the market rules-" ... until such time as your sustained quarterly net loss takes you under... in which case, profit
33 MAH4546 : Lambertman, I remember back in 2000 when AA decided to come to STL and try out a few of TWA's "prized routes". They started with 3 daily STL-LAX, a fe
34 Ultrapig : Comments on Frequent flier miles are interesting-It is amazing what people will do to earn them-like connecting instead of going non-stop or paying $3
35 Atrude777 : I think its wonderful F9 sees something in STL, and is willing to move to the D-Concourse. I sure hope to fly them sometimes now. what peeves me off
36 Quickmover : "Lambertman, I remember back in 2000 when AA decided to come to STL and try out a few of TWA's "prized routes". They started with 3 daily STL-LAX, a f
37 LambertMan : Quickmover, I certainly don't remember it and I have been following Lambert for a really long time. You may be thinking of when AA took over flying th
38 Atrude777 : I didn't mean to come across as if they were being forced, I realize its on there own freewill. I would love for them to expand, however i certainly
39 Quickmover : STL-LAX on AA started maybe 6 mos. before they announced the merger. If you remember, TWA started a focus city in San Juan with flights to LAX, BOS, M
40 Jmy007 : Quickmover, I remember those flights AA- STL-LAX,STL-LGA I think it was mid 2000 or so. I think it was only one or two flights a day. From www.stltoda
41 MAH4546 : I stand corrected. Very interesting. Did the flight ever actually launch?
42 LambertMan : It couldn't have. I've payed too close attention to St Louis over the years and the only AA changes I remember are the JFK and DCA ones. It was probab
43 Boeing nut : On the other hand, does anyone think that the only reason they're expanding in St. Louis is because they can't get more space in DEN? If there were to
44 Atcboy73 : IF they are taking over two gates as stated by someone above we will surly see at least one or two more routes announced. Two gates with the currant s
45 Post contains links Mariner : Boeing_nut: The issue of the gates at DIA was settled last November. It isn't prized information, it was widely reported in the press: http://www.fron
46 Air1727 : Frontier was going to move to D no matter what; just in due time...there was no mystery to that; it was just a matter of when. They were leasing Ameri
47 F9Fan : I wonder if F9 will add some Florida service out of STL. I would think MCO, FLL, TPA, and possibly RSW would be good candidates for added service. The
48 Atrude777 : F9FAN- It would be awesome if they do that, however I dont see it happening. MCO has about 5-6 N/S flights on that route alone with Southwest and AA.
49 Ultrapig : Today's St. Louis Business Journal this issue has not been posted on the Web yet) has a story entitled "Lambert surpass: American Up, Southwest Down"
50 LambertMan : Because we have 10 million o/d passengers a year, no its not an ATL, MSP, or DEN of the world but it's good, better than SLC, CLE, CVG, MCI, MSY, MEM,
51 Ultrapig : Yes I am negative about the airport management-You may know that although our airport is in the county of St. Louis which surrounds the city proper it
52 NWA Man : but there are a few places where they could go where demand isn't necessarily satisfied by AA such as SAN, SJC, SFO, FLL, TPA, MSP Good call on all of
53 LambertMan : You say that MCI cannot support a hub because it doesn't have enough o/d, well look at CVG and MEM. Both airports have unbelievably low o/d and yet su
54 Luv2fly : Given the choice when my travels include having to change a plane, I will even go to ATL before I go to STL, sorry true fact the terminal offers littl
55 Ultrapig : Good point Lambert-I mean it but in the capitalist system for every action there is a reaction. We have WN. It brought down airfares-but it had someth
56 LambertMan : Ultra, If you could somehow post that article you read this morning, that would be great, because I'm having trouble finding it. You bring up WN not w
57 Air1727 : Lets be clear here; Saint Louis is *not* a hub whatsoever. It hasn't been since November of last year. It is an o&d chemistry lab...nothing more, noth
58 Ultrapig : Points well taken Air-you are probably right on a new terminal (actually you are right) but they could've cleaned up the old one so it didn't have dir
59 Atcboy73 : Ultrapig Is there any way you can post the article? Id love to read it. Did it say that in the future AA would continue to grow and SWA would continue
60 Air1727 : Ultra : your intuition is clear and from an informal sense Lambert is indeed a "mini-hub"; but it is truly a domestic gateway which operates aside fro
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