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Lufthansa 737  
User currently offlineGround From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 32 posts, RR: 0
Posted (10 years 3 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2691 times:


hi,

as some of you know Lufthansa operates about 50 boeing 737-300/500.as far as i know these aircrafts are at minumum 10 years old. how long do you think these planes will be activ for LH?and do think that they will order some new 737 or replace them in some years with more Airbus?

Cheers....

ground

19 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineThrust From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 2688 posts, RR: 10
Reply 1, posted (10 years 3 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2652 times:

They probably will replace the 737s with Airbuses...with the A319/A320/A321, LH really doesn't have any need for Boeing 737NGs, and have expressed little interest. This is sad, especially since LH was the 737's launch customer. Will miss the LH Boeing 737s.  Sad


Fly one thing; Fly it well
User currently offlineUK_Dispatcher From United Arab Emirates, joined Dec 2001, 2588 posts, RR: 30
Reply 2, posted (10 years 3 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2566 times:

Lufthansa were, of course, the launch customer for the Boeing 737-100 back in the late 1960's:

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User currently offlineKevin752 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 725 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (10 years 3 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2538 times:

I doubt that LH will buy any more 737's in the future. I flew one 737-300 with LH and it was a bit runned down inside but it was a great flight. More airbus planes will be used by LH. I think that Lufthansa would like to become and all airbus airlines. they have more airbus planes than Boeing and many airbus variants.


"Keep Climbing"
User currently offlineAirsicknessbag From Germany, joined Aug 2000, 4723 posts, RR: 34
Reply 4, posted (10 years 3 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2487 times:


LH have often said they don´t want to rely on just one manufacturer. Also, don´t forget that their holiday subsidiary Condor is a major operator of 757-300 and 767-300.

A few more reasons why the 737 will be at LH for a long time to come:

- They´re just now beginning to earn serious money for LH since they´re completely written down financially.

- The oldest ones are just 17 years old.

- They cover a different market than the 319-320-321: 100-120 seats as opposed to 120-140-170 seats.

- Dropping used 2d generation 737s on the market right now would be pure suicide.

Daniel Smile


User currently offlineHorus From Egypt, joined Feb 2004, 5230 posts, RR: 60
Reply 5, posted (10 years 3 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2446 times:

Airsicknessbag

I was reading that Condor will be getting rid of their 752 by the end of the year and the 753 by 2006 (if they can sell them). Apparently they will replace with further A320s and A321s. Is this true?



EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
User currently offlineThrust From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 2688 posts, RR: 10
Reply 6, posted (10 years 3 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2379 times:

LH has ordered the A380, correct? Well, then they very well might wind up replacing the 744s with the A380.


Fly one thing; Fly it well
User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 7, posted (10 years 3 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2308 times:

Horus, I've heard that as well, but I guess that the most important factor in that is the fact that Condor already operates 320s (not sure if they are still with the separate "Condor Berlin" entity - or even if Condor Berlin still exists) and that the 757s are simply too large: the 752s have already been placed with a Russian (leasing) company, but as far as I know, the 753s will stay for a while longer (because they couldn't get them sold at a decent rate).

Thrust, yes, LH has ordered the A380, but when you look at all the routes that LH uses the 744 on, I doubt that we'll ever see the A380 (even in combination with more A346s) replace the 744.

LH has stated that they don't want to be a "one manufacturer shop", and I really don't see them steering in that direction intentionally: the problem might be that, in the last few years, Boeing hasn't really produced anything new that would really fit into LH's fleet (at least not in the sense that it would have a unique new use).

Concerning the 737s, Airsicknessbag, are the oldest ones really around 17 years old now? From the age-perspective, I'd say that - at least in normal conditions - LH really would be preparing to replace them now, simply because of their age, but in the current conditions... even if LH aircraft usually go away for a higher than average price... no way will they be replacing them before the market gets back up.

Happy contrails,
Frank



Smile - it confuses people!
User currently offlineGodBless From Sweden, joined Apr 2000, 2752 posts, RR: 16
Reply 8, posted (10 years 3 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2259 times:

Thrust,
It basically doesn't make any sense to operate the A340-600 and A380 without having the 744 in your fleet. The gap is just too big.
And from what I heard LH even wanted Boeing to strech the 744 a bit cause they could use it very well...

Max


User currently offlineAirsicknessbag From Germany, joined Aug 2000, 4723 posts, RR: 34
Reply 9, posted (10 years 3 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2189 times:


RE Horus and Leskova:

>>>I was reading that Condor will be getting rid of their 752 by the end of the year and the 753 by 2006 (if they can sell them).

The 752-part is correct. They wanted to get rid of 13 a/c, which is roughly a quarter of heir fleet. They tried to sell the 13 753 because their capacity is not needed - no takers. Instead, the 13 752 were sold to some Russian leasing firm.

I don´t know whether they still want to shed the 753 as soon as the 752 is gone by October. Oh, one 752 is going to stay, but that´s the one leased out to Apple Vacations in the USA.

>>>Apparently they will replace with further A320s and A321s. Is this true?

I´d say the 320 (only 174 seats) is too small to replace the 752. The 321 would be well-suited in terms of pax capacity but would fly around lots of unneeded cargo space - which the 757 has not.

Plus, Condor and parent company Thomas Cook are nowhere near the financial shape to acquire new a/c. Apart from some shifting between LH, Germanwings and DE, I don´t expect to see anything new in the DE fleet in the at least medium term.

>>>Concerning the 737s, Airsicknessbag, are the oldest ones really around 17 years old now?

Ya, the oldest X-registered ones (XD,E,L,M,N) were built in 1986/1987. The youngest ones (ET,U,W) date from 94 and 95.

>>>From the age-perspective, I'd say that - at least in normal conditions - LH really would be preparing to replace them now, simply because of their age,

I wouldn´t necessarily agree. Throughout their history, LH have never been overly scrupulous in operating 20+ year old a/c.

>>>but in the current conditions... even if LH aircraft usually go away for a higher than average price... no way will they be replacing them before the market gets back up.

You´re abbsolutely right.

Daniel Smile






User currently offlineGround From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 32 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (10 years 3 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2031 times:

thank you for your answers...

what about for LHs' regional carrier Cityline.do you think they will add a new airaft type, for example the new embraer jets?IMO these types would fit very good for their routes in europe.
right now LH Cityline operates CRJs and Avros..





ground


User currently offlineAirsicknessbag From Germany, joined Aug 2000, 4723 posts, RR: 34
Reply 11, posted (10 years 3 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1983 times:


Oh, that never-ending story. Ya, they´re looking for some 70-seater, together with SK and AC. It was all solved with the huge Do728 order, then that programme died and CL had to start all over again. The ERJ170 was at FRA recently for some test drives, I hear CL was not too impressed.
Anyway, now the Do728 might have a comeback, and AC has ordered a mix of CRJ and ERJ - all seems to be open again and very prone to speculation...


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Daniel Smile


User currently offlineSNATH From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3238 posts, RR: 22
Reply 12, posted (10 years 3 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1948 times:

Airsicknessbag,

Do you know why CL was not impressed with the ERJ170? I'm just curious...

Thanks.

Tony



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User currently offlineDelta777jet From Germany, joined Jun 2000, 1229 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (10 years 3 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1904 times:

I know that LH has sold around five of their B 737-300 to a company in the US for a low price. No clue where they will operate next, but I guess for a company in the states.


Fly easyJet
User currently offlineHorus From Egypt, joined Feb 2004, 5230 posts, RR: 60
Reply 14, posted (10 years 3 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1862 times:

Leskova, the Condor Berlin brand was amalgamated back into Condor to reduce costs at the end of last year


EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
User currently offlineSyncmaster From United States of America, joined Jul 2002, 2018 posts, RR: 11
Reply 15, posted (10 years 3 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1826 times:
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Those 5 they sold might be the ones Mesa has on hand, just incase US goes down?

User currently offlineJohnnybgoode From Germany, joined Jan 2001, 2187 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (10 years 3 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1793 times:

I doubt that LH will buy any more 737's in the future. ... I think that Lufthansa would like to become and all airbus airlines.

i wouldn't be so sure about that. not too long ago, LH was reported to be interested in the 737-800/900 (stated by air transport world magazine). of course, such a big airline as LH is constantly (re-)evaluating lots of different aircraft. and on the other side, such information could also be made public in order to put some pressure on Airbus.

and speaking on becoming all-Airbus... i agree that LH invites the impression of it heading for an all-Airbus fleet. however, as Godbless pointed out, LH was/is interested in a stretched derivative of the 744, and i'm sure they will eventually order a considerable number of 7E7. this aircraft, being offered in various versions, could replace the A300s on the european network. and if Boeing sticks to its promises, then the stretched 7E7 will certainly be a major competitior to the A340-300 since it offers much greater economics.

when it comes to DE, i could very well imagine that they might go for the A321 in due course of time. however, Airsicknessbag pointed out a valid argument, since they fly around some unused cargo capacity. however, i do think that DE is rather happy with its fleet of 753s simply for the fact that although they are slightly more expensive to operate than the 752s it used to operate, every single passenger more in this bird is almost pure profit. so from an economical point of view, i'm sure it was sounder to get rid off the 752s than off the 753s. i'm also pretty sure that they will maintain this fleet since in summer, they really need an aircraft of that size.

SNATH,
Lufthansa CityLine was not too impressed by the aircraft since they consider the cabin to be much too narrow. apparently, that doesn't seem to bother them too much in their CRJ 700s. however, CLH has always put emphasis on a bit more "special" business class service: on its ARJ flights with high business pax numbers, they use 3 CA's in order to provide better service although they're not required to do so.
i believe that might be one reason why they are not too fond of the Embraer jets.

but for the time being, it's believed that the decision on new regional jets to replace the ARJs has been postponed. AC already placed an order, OS went for Fokker 100s and SAS has to sort out their financials first, so the combined Star regional jet order does not seem to be imminent.

further indication for postponing this decision stems from the fact that EW, which operates some BAe-146s and would probably end up receiving some of the new regional jets as well, has recently renewed its lease contracts for these aircraft, so they will be operating them for another year or two.

i do believe, however, that the decision on which type of aircraft is going to be ordered to supplement/replace parts of the fleets of CLH and EW is going to have great impact on the future of the 733/735 fleet at Lufthansa mainline.

cheers
daniel



If only pure sweetness was offered, why's this bitter taste left in my mouth.
User currently offlineGround From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 32 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (10 years 3 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1765 times:

thank you daniel..
thats what i really wanted to state with my questions...

Lufthansa will "split" its longhaul and regional service more and more.that means for the future that former 737 routes will be served by Cityline (and Eurowings) with RJs like CRJ ARJ(BAe146) and perhaps ERJ.
One year ago CL flew almost only with its 5xxx flightnrs out of FRA but now they fly very very often with 3xxx flightnrs,which are the main numbers to identify shorthaul Lufthansa Passage 737/A32x flights.

the CL flights increased a lot the last year...

ground



User currently offlineJohnnybgoode From Germany, joined Jan 2001, 2187 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (10 years 3 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1737 times:

absolutely, that's my opinion, too.

it's no secret that LH is unhappy with its high personnel costs, especially those of the pilots, and the rather lower profitablity of its european network.
and one way to reduce costs is either to cut the pilot wages, which the pilots would be unwilling to agree upon, or to outsource its decentral route network (all a/c based not in FRA or MUC) to its subsidiaries.

it's been a trend in recent years that regional carriers opted for larger aircraft, and i'm pretty sure that which type will finally replace Lufthansa's 735/737 and ARJ fleets, will not be operated by Lufthansa mainline. there is, of course, the scope clause which basically limits CLH to a/c offering just 80 seats (which has been partially waived).

so there's two things LH management is likely going to demand from its mainline pilots: outsourcing the decentral route network or agreeing to pay cuts.

sorry for being off topic, but there's topics i could write about for hours  Wink/being sarcastic

speaking of the flight numbers... well, that change actually occured when LH was running out of suitable flight numbers. they could not fully utilize all 9999 flight numbers in order not to have similar flight numbers close to each other while in the air.
this is why LH now has assigned flight numbers on a route based allocation system, f.e. all flights HAM-FRA are 001, 003, 005, and FRA-HAM is 002, 004 (just an example, probably not the right figures), a way in which it is being used by many other airlines.
but in order to prevent similar flight numbers, LH flight designators as handled by ATC have been detached from the LH number. so, while as passenger you still might be travelling on LH3014, ATC would handle the flight as LH3MY4, or something like that. they've included letters to better distinguish different flights.

cheers
daniel



If only pure sweetness was offered, why's this bitter taste left in my mouth.
User currently offlineFlying-Tiger From Germany, joined Aug 1999, 4160 posts, RR: 36
Reply 19, posted (10 years 3 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1707 times:

Re LHCL 70-seater:

The CRJ700 was introduced as simply no other aircraft of that size was available, and LH needed the capacity. Besides, is was the most minimum risk approach at that time.

Now the market looks a bit different with the CRJ700, Embraer 170 and soon Fokker F70NG competing against each other.

It is no secret that LH was very close to put the writing on the dotted line for F70s when BAE Systems came with an extremly good deal for the ARJ85, which finally was accepted by LH.

Word is now, that the European Star carriers have come together and have signed for a large chunk of Fokker F70NGs, including LH, SK and BD (OS apparently already took out options on the F70NG when they ordered the ex-AA F100s). It is still a rumour, however it looks more real than everything else in the past few months, especially as the F70 is LCY-capable, and the Embraer 170 still not.

Regards
Flying-Tiger
http://fly.to/rorders



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