THY747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 23 posts, RR: 0 Posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 6243 times:
Hello all,
Forgive me for my ignorance but I would like to know what some specific MD-11 performance problems were. I know that airlines were generally unhappy with the aircraft and I remember reading about fuel consumption being more than projected. Is this true? What other problems existed?
Gigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16215 posts, RR: 88 Reply 2, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 6099 times:
The problems were extensive and many.
The main one was that the aircraft never even remotely reached its promised range, or a usable range.
Even carefully maintained MD-11s with extra tankage had a hard time travelling LAX-HKG for ATL-NRT.
CitationJet From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 2249 posts, RR: 3 Reply 3, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 5983 times:
Range problems were true. I know a aero engineer who was hired by MD as an aeronatical engineer to work the aero fixes to the MD-11.
AA expierienced electrical problems with the MD-11. They were not happy with it.
Horus From Egypt, joined Feb 2004, 5230 posts, RR: 62 Reply 6, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 5766 times:
Besides the valid point that Concordeboy gave, SQ cancelled their order for MD-11s for the A340s back in the 90s due to the airliners fuel inefficieny.
It's a shame though as I think the aircraft is great. Besides Varig and Finnair who else operates the passenger version of the aircraft ? (Korean Air?)
Modesto2 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2636 posts, RR: 6 Reply 7, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 5733 times:
Horus, some other airlines include: World, Thai, Alitalia and Swiss.
Triple Seven From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 526 posts, RR: 1 Reply 8, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 5622 times:
Problems with the MD-11s were almost, if not fully corrected by mid 90s.
The corrected version was introduced as the MD-11ER (retrofit package available to earlier models too). Performance of the MD-11ER were actually better than the original performance parameters set for the MD-11 program.
However, bad image and publicity killed the MD-11 program...and McDD itself.
Areopagus From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 1357 posts, RR: 1 Reply 9, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 5509 times:
Google "MD-11 range shortfall" and hit I'm Feeling Lucky. This produces Langley Research Center's computational fluid dynamics page that overviews their contribution to the MD-11 performance recovery effort. That was in the unexpectedly adverse airflow and pressure distribution around the engine pylons, which hadn't shown up in subscale model wind tunnel testing. The pylons were redesigned. In summary, they note:
Initial flight tests of the MD-11 indicated an unacceptable range shortfall of over 400 nmi. McDonnell Douglas initiated a modification program for the MD-11 known as the Performance Improvement Program (PIP), which included focused efforts to improve the aircraft’s weight, fuel capacity, engine performance, and aerodynamics. Cumulative improvements from modifications identified by the PIP from 1990 to 1995 recovered and subsequently extended the range for the aircraft.
Gigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16215 posts, RR: 88 Reply 10, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 5450 times:
Performance of the MD-11ER were actually better than the original performance parameters set for the MD-11 program.
Even with the PIP, the planes had poor range. It was better than it was, but not as good as it needed to be.
N685FE From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 450 posts, RR: 12 Reply 11, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 5335 times:
ConcordeBoy
"Too small a rudder, instability and a tendency to want to rollover during approach.">
MD put a four piece rudder on the a/c that more then makes up for it's physical length. What data do you have that shows the a/c wants to roll during aproach? If you are refurring to FDX N611FE and China Airlines B-150, the a/c rolled after the gear and wing seperated the a/c and lost lift on the effected side causing it to roll. Both cases were pilot error, "improper landing technique". ConcordeBoy, are you prejudgeice? You tend to judge an entire a/c type on these two cases whose only flaw was the pilots flying them at the time. If you can judge an a/c type by a few cases then:
The 737 has a tendency to lawn dart during approach/departure/cruise;UA, N9031U; Indian Airlines VT-EAM; Pacific Western Airlines, CF-PWC; Air Florida, N62AF; Transportes Aereos Militares Ecuatorianos, HC-BIG;TAAG, D2-TBN; Thai, HS-TBB; British Airtours, G-BGJL; VASP, PP-SME; China Airlines, B-1870; LAN Chile, CC-CHJ; Thai Airways, HS-TBC; Condor, D-ABHD; Ethiopian Airlines, ET-AJA; Brithish Midland Airways, G-OBME; VARIG, PP-VMK; China Airlines, B-180; Xiamen Airlines, B-2510; ect ect....
The 737 has a tendency to brake up, Far Eastern Air Transport, B-2603; VASP, PP-SMY;Gulf Air, A40-BK; EgyptAir, SU-AYH; Iraqi Airways, YI-AGJ; Aloha Airlines, N73711; USAir, N416US; Philippine Airlines, EI-BZG; ect ect....
Do you get my point? And this is just the 737, you could do this to any a/c type.
Thrust From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 2674 posts, RR: 11 Reply 13, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 5279 times:
Were all of the AA and DL MD-11s eventually given the MD-11ER retrofitting package? It's just too bad that these beautiful birds saw so few years of service. Well, at least KLM's will be around until 2012, or should I say 2008 since AF bought them out? BTW, if AF bought out KLM, I would imagine they will try to phase out the MD-11s, right, since they have the much more fuel efficient A343s and Boeing 744s?
Solnabo From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 795 posts, RR: 2 Reply 15, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 5260 times:
Watched NatGeo Channel about Swisscrash in -98 with the MD11; just horrible to see it though actors.....in that case it was the electrics to the 1st class pc´s / phones.
Maybe the performance is crappy but the aircraft is a beauty!!!
**You´ll be missed**
777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 16, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 5237 times:
The MD-11 had a smaller horizontal stabiliser by 40% and its centre of gravity was moved aft. This led to it being less stable than the DC-10. The thing wasn't particularly dynamically stable - and even though it was certified, its lack of stability was atributed to a few crashes.
Thrust From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 2674 posts, RR: 11 Reply 18, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 5175 times:
Phollingsworth From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 825 posts, RR: 6 Reply 21, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 5074 times:
I know that part of the problem for the MD-11 was that even after the original range problems got fixed it still did not have sufficient range for some of the city pairs that the launch customers wanted to use it for. Part of the problem is that certain city pairs became effectively farther apart during the course of the MD-11 program, i.e. the typical winds changed. I know this was the case with HKG-LAX, which for which the effective still air range increased significantly between updates.
777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 22, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 5012 times:
While the initial range problems were fixed within time, by that time the MD-11 had already been severly bashed by AA, and Boeing and Airbus had come up with 777s and A340s with even more range.
FlyingColors From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 73 posts, RR: 6 Reply 23, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 4961 times:
To cut to the chase....
The MD-11 did have performance issues in its late development.
MD has 366 orders. When it was coming up short of its promises just prior to its release, several orders were lost and only 200 were produced.
MD has many management problems causing precious time to laps by, thus loosing sales.
By the time the MD-11 was ready for customers it actually overshot its promise of range by at least an extra 2%! Yes aerodynamic issues were solved, prior to delivery.
Gigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16215 posts, RR: 88 Reply 24, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 4952 times:
By the time the MD-11 was ready for customers it actually overshot its promise of range by at least an extra 2%! Yes aerodynamic issues were solved, prior to delivery.
The MD-11 never, ever exceeded its promise of range. Even PIPed MD-11s occasionally had issues negotiating ATL-NRT.
McD's range for a PIPed M11 was like 8200nm, and I can assure you no MD-11 ever achieved that target.
N
25 ConcordeBoy: By the time the MD-11 was ready for customers it actually overshot its promise of range by at least an extra 2%!
26 OPNLguy: The MD-11 had no performance problems, as long as one ordered the aircraft with the optional performance package... Hell on fuel consumption though...
27 Bobs89irocz: Horus- I have no idea how many MD-11's World has but i think its 9-12 Alitatia- 4 as of 6 months ago im sure their down to 2 or 3 Swiss- their MD-11's
28 Scf158: Swiss now has 3 MD-11's left that they use. These three wont be around for much longer.
29 767Lover: Even PIPed MD-11s occasionally had issues negotiating ATL-NRT Can you explain -- I mean, what makes you say this? Did the crew have to consider divert
30 OV735: Just an interesting side note - as the original MD11 clearly undershot its promised range capabilities, MD had to decrease the weight of the airplane
31 N685FE: My point is, you made an uneducated judgment concerning the characteristics of the MD11 with a limited amount of technical knowledge or facts surround
32 Gigneil: Can you explain -- I mean, what makes you say this? Did the crew have to consider diverting to another airport for a fuel stop or something? The fligh
33 Galeaocumbica: Hi guys! I am Brazilian and living in London since 2001. I usually fly Varig to Brazil, as it is easier for me a non-stop flight from LHR-GRU-LHR. As
34 LVZXV: Galeaocumbica: I'd say so. This 8,200nm rubbish is neither relevant to you or to me if the MD-11 can fly GRU-LHR or EZE-ZRH as it has proven itself so
35 AM772: However, bad image and publicity killed the MD-11 program...and McDD itself. As the MD-11 is a develovepment of the DC-10, it never had a good reputat
36 Triple Seven: The poor performance of the MD-11 could be attributed to the wholesale adaptation of the DC-10. IIRC McDD rushed to developed the MD-11 fast - and tha
37 Gigneil: Is the MD-11 safe or not? Absolutely. This 8,200nm rubbish is neither relevant to you or to me if the MD-11 can fly GRU-LHR or EZE-ZRH as it has prove
38 Warren747sp: It is very common for airliners flying longhaul Trans-Pacific especially in the winter month to land somewhere for fuel stop. So when one says that th
39 Gigneil: So when one says that the MD-11 can not fly Atl-Nrt day after day and classify it as not able to meeting its intended range. It is just a lot of rubbi
40 Arcano: Hi I have a very basic question about MD11: When the program was launched, it was introduced as a DC10 upgrade or a whole new aircraft? If it was just
41 Starlionblue: The MD-11 was launched as a new AC. Compare to the A330/340. Same fuse size as A300/310, but the innards and wings are all new.
42 Mpoellot: Hi folks, just read this: http://www.airlinesafety.com/faq/faq9.htm Michael
43 Starlionblue: Mpoellot, I was just waiting for that link to appear Sensationalist in it's conclusion but raises many valid points. However, if you think about it, t
44 Mpoellot: Starlionblue, the report sounds somehow exaggerated indeed, however, problems with that aircraft existed as we all know it -- hence the modifications
45 Starlionblue: United 747 over the pacific lost the cargo door and part of the fuse. A few people were killed. Reason: The locking latch design was deficient.
47 Galeaocumbica: Mpoellot, Have you ever been in a MD-11 flight or you avoid it 100%? Just wondering... I feel safe in any A/C, as soon as I know if the airline keep i
49 Mpoellot: GaleaoCumbica, the MD11 is very familiar to me. In fact, I´ve been a passenger on the entire Swissair / Swiss MD11 fleet crossing the Atlantic includ
50 MD-11 forever: Dear COAB767 Care to elaborate your valuable statement a bit further? Anyway, (irony on) thank you for improving the level of this board (irony off).
51 JeckPDX: I'm not sure whether this was a stop necessary for refueling, or just route networking but DL MD-11s used to continually stop in PDX on their way to t
52 Brubiac: But why is it so popular with cargo operators?
53 MD11Engineer: The merger between Boeing and Douglas was in fact a hostile take-over. Boeing saw the MD-11, esp. in the freighter role as a direct competition for it
54 Starlionblue: Brubiac. Cargo demands are different. And cargos mostly lag one generation behind pax planes. Which is why you see so many 742F and conversions, A300,
55 Gearup: N685FE said; "The 737 has a tendency to lawn dart during approach/departure/cruise;" I have never heard that expression before, what does it mean? BTW
57 MD-11 forever: Dear COAB767 If that's all you have to contribute to this topic, I am sure that all people interested got your message after the first "contribution"
58 Gigneil: The merger between Boeing and Douglas was in fact a hostile take-over. Boeing saw the MD-11, esp. in the freighter role as a direct competition for it
59 ConcordeBoy: I'm not sure whether this was a stop necessary for refueling, or just route networking but DL MD-11s used to continually stop in PDX on their way to t
60 Dynkrisolo: -LH: "Well, then we´ll rather try the A380!" You won't get any argument from me that LH would like to have more MD-11 freighters. But LH had shown v
61 FDXmech: >>>The MD-11 had a smaller horizontal stabiliser by 40% and its centre of gravity was moved aft.
62 MD11Engineer: The main reason for MD-11s sitting around is that there are only two places worldwide, Finnair, HEL, and Saeco, SIN, which are doing freighter convers
63 Vasi: Well from my view as a passenger it is an excellent aircraft. The longest legs I flew regularly on the Swissair/Swiss MD-11 was that to Narita. In alm
64 LTBEWR: The MD-11 clearly had some performance issues due to shortcuts in it's development compounded with management and business realities at MD leading to
65 Starlionblue: LTBEWR, I agree that the 777 and 330/340 killed it. However, politics doesn't have so much to do with it, as many Eurocarriers use the 777 (AF, BA, ..
66 N685FE: Gearup, the generalization of the 737 lawn darting was constructive criticism towards ConcordeBoy's comment of "Too small a rudder, instability and a
67 FlyingColors: Must make a correction from what I said above: MD had 344 orders, but only built 200. And I quote the piece from "Flightpaths: Exposing the myths abou
68 Tsentsan: FlyingColors, I think Concordeboy's arguement is something like the fuel consumption in cars... A manufacturer might claim they can get 20 MPG from th
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