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Qf's Pilotless Landing  
User currently offlineQF747 From Australia, joined Nov 1999, 164 posts, RR: 0
Posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2816 times:

Significant event in that its both my favourite airline and it happened at my hometown of Melbourne. Are we heading for pilotless aircraft? Would you feel safe knowing that the a/c is controlled by "Virtual Pilot"?

http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,9276292%255E421,00.html




Always fly QF!
22 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineRadarbeam From Canada, joined Mar 2002, 1310 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 2764 times:

No I wouldn't. I want one of those grey-haired 100K paid captain on board, nothing will ever equal that in terms of safety.

User currently offlineDowningbarry From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2004, 34 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 2715 times:

"Conducted in association with Boeing, Air Services Australia and Europe's Air Traffic Alliance, the aim is to find solutions to the go-around landing problem for pilots and passengers at busy airports.

Capt Manning said that, unlike present landing strategies, the new system gave controllers more time to plot procedures and give incoming aircraft direct glide paths.

"It will reduce noise, cut fuel burn and noise and generate substantial savings," he said. "

Aren't go-arounds caused most frequently by aircraft on the runway that haven't cleared in time (for which the pilot must manually deal with) - what's that got to do with an aircraft coming in to land?


User currently offlineFutureualpilot From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2602 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 2614 times:

Im definitley with Radarbeam, I want pilot(s) flying my aircraft. But also want to BE a pilot so that might have something to do with it...


Life is better when you surf.
User currently offlineUa777222 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3348 posts, RR: 11
Reply 4, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 2540 times:

Until that computer can control crosswinds, turbulence, weather, and the human brain this will never happen. It works for now but when a 744 falls out of the sky b/c a controller entered the wrong thing and the capt. can't do a thing about it you'll never see this happen again. I'm surprised this airline did this seeing how they are the safest airline in the skys.

UA777222



"It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark."
User currently offline727200er From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 318 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 2511 times:

I definitely feel better with a cabin crew thanks. I am a computer nut but I want a "real" pilot in charge.


"they who dream by day are cognizant of many things which escape those who dream only at night" - Edgar Allen Poe
User currently offlineFSPilot747 From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 3599 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2488 times:

Christ. I hope they're not trying to make pilots obsolete so soon. I'll be out of a job.



FSP


User currently offlineAirbear From Australia, joined May 2001, 648 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2418 times:

No thanks ! To revive that old joke, I'll take the pilot & dog combination any day.

Aside from all of the obvious considerations, wouldn't the pilot's union(s) have anything to say about this? Particularly QF's pilots union!


User currently offlineVirginFlyer From New Zealand, joined Sep 2000, 4575 posts, RR: 41
Reply 8, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2297 times:

From my reading of the article, this is not a pilotless landing at all. Rather, a computer is issuing instructions to the pilots, who then follow them. It is much like ATC, except with instructions tailored to a specific aircraft.

V/F



"So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth." - Bahá'u'lláh
User currently offlineAerohottie From Australia, joined Mar 2004, 802 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2203 times:

Concidering the majority of air crashes are caused through pilot error I would happily get onboard an aircraft with a computer at the wheel (so to speak)....
However I would feel safer should there be a manual overide for a pilot to take over should the computer malfunction etc etc....perhaps this will also cut costs by allowing aircraft to fly with only 1 pilot, and not 2, 3, 4 etc etc. Also if the aircraft is controlled by the ground by ATC or ground based pilots then the reoccurence of events such as 9/11 become impossible. The perception of safety is the issue, not actual safety... as I mentioned before, the majority of air crashes are cause by pilot error, not hardware malfunction.



What?
User currently offlinePER744 From Australia, joined Mar 2003, 405 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2067 times:

I agree with VirginFlyer.

It's not a pilotless landing, it's merely the way instructions are communicated to the aircraft. It helps reduce the possibility for human error. Rather than the controller telling the pilot to descend to a certain altitude/slow to a certain speed, and then have the pilot change that onboard, and then confirm, and then have the controller make the change on their system, the controller just has to make a few mouse clicks, enter the relevant information, which the pilot accepts with the press of a button, and it's updated on both the aircraft and the ATC system.

I've seen the way it works from an ATC perspective, and it seems to be a lot easier on both the pilot and the controller.

It wasn't a pilotless landing so much as a no-voice-communication landing.


It's really just an extension of current practice, rather than an entirely new system. It's not designed to eliminate pilots. Air Traffic Controllers do not want to have final and full responsibility for a plane.

The article is also clearly simplified for the public: Commands were issued for 45 minutes by the Tower?


User currently offlineFiedman From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 210 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1977 times:

I would have been terrified if I found out that the flight I was on was being controlled by a computer I would feel a whole lot safer with a human pilot on board.


Westjet - Canada's National Low-fare Airline
User currently offline'Longreach' From Australia, joined Jul 2001, 505 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1881 times:

Sounds like a good invention. Obviously it would work out a lot more efficient for aviation in the long run.

I remember being taught that around 60% of all air crashes are due to human error? (anyone feel free to correct that figure) I would much rather get on a machine operated aircraft, plus the ticket would be much cheaper.


User currently offlineTexAussie From Australia, joined Jan 2004, 142 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1849 times:


The lack of voice commands seems to be the biggest issue here, right, in terms of the fear of a "hands off" landing. Intersting that the tower can control those commands.

Technically, the rest could all be achieved by programming everything into the FMC and letting LNAV/VNAV and Approach modes sequence the plane all the way to touchdown.

I am sure many people have experienced fully-automated landings in poor weather, without ever knowing. I have been on BA and DL 767s in Europe where the captain announced they would do an automated landing... and they were all very smooth and quite impressive.

I don't think this will jeopardize the flight crew's job. I feel good knowing there are at least two very professional people at the controls, regardless of whether or not their hands are on the wheel at all times and would not envision any carriers approving a pilotless airliner for a very long time.



User currently offlineLauda777 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 165 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1745 times:

Interesting concept I must say!
I wouldn't mind if I was on one of these flights just to see how smooth a computer can land however I wouldn't get on a plane if it was completely pilotless which I don't think is the plan from reading the article, it's basically an autopilot landing with 2 pilots in the cockpit as per normal.



We remind passengers all flights are non smoking, if you are caught smoking you will be asked to sit outside on the wing
User currently offlineCx flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6603 posts, RR: 55
Reply 15, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1672 times:

I wish people would read the replies before replying themselves.

As others have said, it is merely voice-less communications. The pilots are still there to fly the plane, and the fac it did an autoland is not really anything special at all. Autolands are done all around the world everyday...the article obviously just mentions it to increase the dramatism (is that a word?) of the article.


User currently offlineVirginFlyer From New Zealand, joined Sep 2000, 4575 posts, RR: 41
Reply 16, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1642 times:

the article obviously just mentions it to increase the dramatism (is that a word?) of the article

Hardly surprising when you see where it comes from. The same fine providers of news that bring us Fox News, among others. As they say in Melbourne, 'Is it true, or did you read it in the Herald Sun?'

V/F



"So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth." - Bahá'u'lláh
User currently offlineBd1959 From Australia, joined Oct 2002, 450 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1555 times:

hmmm....isn't one of the great truisms of aviation that you need your ears to fly? OK this aircraft is responding solely to the commands it is being given - but those commands are not being heard by the other aircraft around it. What if a wrong mouse click was made such that an aircraft was cleared to 10,000 instead of 15,000 - and there was another flight already cleared at 12,000 - they would normally hear that command and be aware that a conflict had been issued.

BD1959


User currently offlineLauda777 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 165 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1518 times:

LOL @ VirginFlyer, I like the Herald Sun comment.... I know where you are coming from otherwise referred to as the Herald Slum...


We remind passengers all flights are non smoking, if you are caught smoking you will be asked to sit outside on the wing
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 84
Reply 19, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1373 times:

85%. Get used to that number.

That's the percentage of air disasters caused by human error.

N


User currently offlineCancidas From Poland, joined Jul 2003, 4112 posts, RR: 11
Reply 20, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1334 times:

until someone can guarantee that the system is absolutely perfect and faces no danger from hackings, power outages or human error i want there to be at least one if not two competent pilots in that cokpit. then again, this coming from a pilot...


"...cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home."
User currently offlineCancidas From Poland, joined Jul 2003, 4112 posts, RR: 11
Reply 21, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1332 times:

until someone can guarantee that the system is absolutely perfect and faces no danger from hackings, power outages or human error i want there to be at least two competent pilots in that cokpit. then again, this coming from a pilot...


"...cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home."
User currently offlineWarszawa From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 727 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1295 times:

I dont see the big deal on the 85% human error part. Of course the number is going to be high because the only thing mainly flying the aircraft are humans. Theres probably 95% human error in all the worlds car crashes, nobody is complaining about that.

The day a computer takes over flying, if ever, is the last day i'll ever fly again.

Picture in 300 years, the population in the world is so huge, and everything is ran by computers. Computers pump your gas, handle your credit cards, money, work at the gas station, fly airplanes, drive your cars, drive taxis, drive busses, tea schools...basically do everything. Well hell so much for having an income. Everyone will be out of jobs!

Personally i'd rather have a job and make a substantial income than rely on a quirky computer who has all the jobs and steals my income.



Flying a plane is no diff. from riding a bicycle. Its just a lot harder to put baseball cards in the spokes. -'Airplane'
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