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Why So Few International Flights To MCO  
User currently offlineIflyorl From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 159 posts, RR: 0
Posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 5104 times:

I'm just wondering why MCO is only serviced by a few international carriers. Why not Air France or Asian airlines. I have heard that MCO was served by several international in the early 90's so why the change??
I'm wondering if maybe that could be a reason for our new fourth runway... are the officials expecting new traffic??
Chris

[Edited 2004-04-21 05:03:47]

[Edited 2004-04-21 05:15:29]

21 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineHlywdCatft From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 5321 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 5058 times:

MCO is served by

3 daily Virgin, 4 in summer
British
LTU
Martinaire
Condor
Aero Mexico
Mexicana
Air Canada
Zoom
Air Jamaica
COPA
and supposedly Cayman is coming back and Eurofly (Alitalia)

plus there are a bunch of European charters into SFB.

thats more international service than most U.S. Airports have.

Air France is part of Skyteam so they just connect through the many Delta 767+ larger aircraft that fly almost hourly between ATL-MCO.

I don't know for sure, but MCO might be out of range for most of Asia. I don't recall Asian airlines ever serving Miami either and I think Korean Air just makes ATL, or does it too have to stop somewhere?

I could possibly see Lufthansa eventually flying here and maybe once again KLM depending on the merger with Air France.

I think a lot of the reasons that Asian and European flights aren't coming to MCO as much is due to the Opening of Euro Disney and Disney Japan where people just go to those locations rather than all the way to Orlando.

Another big reason is the alliances- Skyteam, Star and One World... back then there weren't all these alliances and more direct flights happened

I'll be curious to see what happens after the EU and US talks on the open skies agreement concludes


User currently offlineIflyorl From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 159 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 5037 times:

I guess the spotter in me would just like to see something a little different, like an El Al 747 or a Lufthansa A340 taxi out for takeoff.

User currently offlineStartvalve From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 5023 times:

It is called supply and demand.

If a given airlines customers want to go there, they will fly there, if enough of them want to fly there they will even use a bigger airplane.


User currently offlineLan_Fanatic From Chile, joined Sep 2001, 1071 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 4992 times:

I might be wrong...but most people going to Florida are going for tourism, hence they head firstly to Miami, and then they go to Orlando by car or something like that (at least that is what I have done and all the people I know that have gone to Florida have done) so there is no need for a direct flight to MCO from SCL or anywhere in South America at least.


BTW, LanChile has flown to Miami like twice weekly during southern hemisphere summer, although that happened when the economy was doing better...


User currently offlineFlynavy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 4961 times:

Saudi Arabian once served MCO with 744's (as late as 2000), El Al w/ 742's, KLM with 742's, 744's, and DC-10's (I believe daily from AMS). Transbrasil brought 767-200/300 to ramp in the 1990's also. When the DL operation was larger, and at more of a "hub" status, there was direct service to NRT, routing MCO-LAX-NRT using MD11 equip. Don't forget Bahamasair, also!

I remember, back in the 1990's, where AirTran's ticket counters are currently located, ANA had counters AND agents there. This has always proven to be a mystery when I bring this up on the boards, and I never recall seeing any ANA aircraft on the ramp at MCO. However, they def. codeshare with UA's service, and, always remember UA had a "hub" of sorts in the early-mid 1990's, even a F/A base there!

I grew up in Orlando, lived there for 18 years! I live in VA Beach, now, though.

Later,
Chris at NTU


User currently offlineCjuniel From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 146 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 4939 times:

Lan Fanatic,

Actually I disagree with a few things in your post. Comparing international services between Miami and Orlando is like comparing apples and oranges (no pun intended). Orlando is the number one vacation destination in the world. Not to say that Miami isn't a huge vacation destination, but it is no Orlando. Las Vegas is another great example. With its close proximity to Los Angeles and San Francisco, most carriers (yes I know a few do have international service to LAS) fly into the west coast gateways, then transfer the passengers to their domestic partners. Secondly, a MAJOR reason for the majority of the nonstop service between South America and Miami is simple. Business. While New York is the headquarters for many Fortune 500 companies, Miami is THE gateway to Latin America for the United States. Most major Central and South American companies have their US headquarters in the Greater Miami area. Not to mention the fact that there is a huge Hispanic population in South Florida.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32732 posts, RR: 72
Reply 7, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 4937 times:

I don't recall Asian airlines ever serving Miami either

JAL served MIA during the 1980s (NRT-ANC-MIA-GRU) and so did Royal Jordanian (AMM-VIE-MIA). Currently, El Al flies to MIA twice a week (TLV-EWR-MIA).

As for the reason, it has to simply do with low-yields and not enough business traffic. Orlando can probably fill a Lufthansa 747-400 to Orlando, but the yield would be horrendous. Passengers can connect via Atlanta or Miami, and in a tourism market, having non-stops is not as important. People will pay less for the connection, especially when it is a family market, and you have to pay for 4-5 people, which means going from $1200 rtn to an $1100 rtn saves $400.



a.
User currently offlineFlynavy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 4903 times:

If the yields are so low, why does VS send up to 4 747's here daily? I don't mean to sound as if I know it all, but perhaps someone can explain to me why yields are so important when it comes to non-stops into MCO.

User currently offlineLan_Fanatic From Chile, joined Sep 2001, 1071 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 4878 times:

Cjuniel: I get your point completely. What I said was what I see. Talking from a "south american " point of view, Miami takes the biggest piece of the cake both in business and in tourism, in comparison to Orlando. That is why, at least from South America, there are no direct flights to Orlando, as it just seems from down here (although I love going to Orlando and I know it's not just another US city) that Orlando is an appendix of Miami.


BTW: I don't know if the word appendix in english is used correctly, but in spanish it is.


User currently offlineCjuniel From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 146 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 4863 times:

Navy,

The yields are important for international carriers to a tourist destination because you usually have a very low number of people willing to pay for first or business class seats.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32732 posts, RR: 72
Reply 11, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 4835 times:

If the yields are so low, why does VS send up to 4 747's here daily?

The aircraft that Virgin sends to Orlando are high-density aircraft. They have less premium seats and more economy seats than the aircraft sent to other destinations. They are more ideally suited to carrying a more profitable load with low-yields. In a low yield market, you want to send higher density planes and make up for the low yields in volume. That is what Virgin Atlantic does. Virgin Atlantic flights to Orlando have 16 Upper Class seats. Miami flights have 48.

The 747-400s that fly to Orlando and other Gatwick routes are high density. They have more economy seats, less premium seats, and no in-flight bar or massuse. They have a total of 418 seats.

The 747-400s to Miami and other Heathrow routes have more premium seats and less economy seats, an in-flight bar and a massuse. They have only 380 seats.

The HD 744s are all based in Gatwick and fly leisure routes, the LD are based in Heathrow and fly routes that have stronger yields.



a.
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32732 posts, RR: 72
Reply 12, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 4823 times:

Orlando is the number one vacation destination in the world. Not to say that Miami isn't a huge vacation destination, but it is no Orlando.

Latin Americans, Europeans, and Africans all perfer vacations to Miami over Orlando (the exception being Britons, who perfer Orlando). To say Orlando is the "number one vacation destination in the world" is overkill. It is up there, but Las Vegas, Paris, and Madrid, among others, compete with the crown.

The difference between Miami and Orlando, and the main reason Miami has more European service, is that Miami attracts a more wealthier crowd in terms of tourists. Vacationing in Miami is not cheap, and the average family of four can't afford it. It works out better for airlines, because Miami is generally a strong yielding destination for them because this affuluent crowd is more likely to be sitting in a foward cabin. This is especially true with Air France, as wealthy French flock to Miami every winter, filling the premium cabins with ease. There is also a healthy mix of business traffic to go into the flow. San Francisco is in a very similar situation. High-yielding destination because it attracts an affluent crowd and has good business traffic to add into the mix. More globally, other "premium" tourist destinations include Papette, Cape Town, and Nice.



a.
User currently offlineCjuniel From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 146 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 4764 times:

MAH,

Check your facts. Orlando is the number one destination because of the amusement parks in the area and the number of FAMILIES that visit Orlando.


User currently offlineChepos From Puerto Rico, joined Dec 2000, 6214 posts, RR: 11
Reply 14, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 4695 times:

Mexicana, Aeropostal, Aero Costa Rica (dead), Lacsa, Varig, VASP(charters I belive) all used to fly to Orlando- this was back when Terminal A had more activity.
It was a sight to see the ELAL 747-200 at Orlando as well as the SV 747-400 (I saw both flights board at one time and the loads on the flights were less than 50) and this was during the summer.
Wasn't Lan Chile planning a flight to MCO? or so I read a couple of years ago.
Chepos



Fly the Flag!!!!
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32732 posts, RR: 72
Reply 15, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 4566 times:

MAH,

Check your facts. Orlando is the number one destination because of the amusement parks in the area and the number of FAMILIES that visit Orlando.


I did check my facts. Orlando does constantly claim to be the world's number one tourist destination. So does Paris. So does Las Vegas. The real answer, who knows? I'd be willing to bet Las Vegas is ahead of Orlando, since it is much more popular as a weekend getaway spot than Orlando.



a.
User currently offlineGib From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 281 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4477 times:

There's a Disney in Tokyo and Paris, and obviously, many closer to these locations go there instead of MCO.

I used to escort groups to Disney World, and never want to go again.... Argh! ....

....On the other hand....The City of Orlando and MCO are beautiful! The Marriott Airport has some killer view rooms for arrivals when the wind's right!


User currently offlineMD80Nut From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 921 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4424 times:

Gib,
I agree with you, the city of Orlando is quite nice and Orlando's airport is one of the best in the US in my opinion. I've been there many times on business and a few times for pleasure and have always enjoyed the area.

cheers, Ralph



Fly Douglas Jets DC-8 / DC-9 / DC-10 / MD80 / MD11 / MD90 / 717
User currently offlineWorldoftui From Sweden, joined Aug 2007, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 4318 times:

All about the yield!

I remember when the UK charters were using the REAL Orlando Intl airport, and not the smaller, more rural alternative to the north! Good old days. Flew in with MON and saw an AIH 763, an LEI 763, a MON A300-600 and 3 BY 767's all at the same time. Sigh! Could have mistaken the place for LGW.
And then SFB rears its ugly head :-( One by one the charters start to move out. They left, advising customers that due to the "double claim" baggage system, processing times were unacceptable and that SFB,despite the distance, would mean arriving at your hotel quicker. Yeah right.
BY did go back for a while, the only UK charter to operate there - a major selling point. After 9-11, they moved back to SFB, probably for good. Florida routes were suddenly very marginal for UK carrier and could very easily make large losses for them. I am sure that the cost to operate into SFB was much lower and so very attractive for the charters. Shame though, MCO is a truly world class facility.

Also remember seeing the ElAl 747-200's there - had forgotten them!

Also, is interesting to note that the German charters are still at MCO. The Germans seem to pay higher prices for their holidays than British tourists.


Mark


User currently offlineHlywdCatft From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 5321 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 4295 times:

***Mexicana, Aeropostal, Aero Costa Rica (dead), Lacsa, Varig, VASP(charters I belive) all used to fly to Orlando- this was back when Terminal A had more activity.***

Mexicana still flies here seasonally I believe on weekends. I have lived here less than a year and I have seen their A320s and 757s fly in along with seeing them on flytecomm.

It seems to me that there is a bit of available gate space over in the airside where Northwest and USAirways parks, seems to be a quiet section.

There have been recent talks about the building of an international terminal near the area where Goldenrod Avenue cuts through the airport to the east of the main terminals.





User currently offlineHUYfan From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 1406 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 4293 times:

ACTUALLY the No1 holiday destination in the world, in terms of visitor numbers is Majorca!

Orlando is a varied market. It is largely O+D traffic, tourists and some corporates staying in or living in the Orlando area. The obvious attractions of Disney and Universal are the main pulling points.

In terms of yield, flights to the UK do well in terms of premium pax, because the UK-Orlando market is so large, there are enough pax to support for example, BA and Virgin's premium classes. Other European markets for example, Germany have a much lower yield market, hence Condor/Thomas Cook and LTU's flights.

IMO there IS more scope for European flights, and with Delta having a relatively large operation at MCO, i would think a Paris CDG flight could work, also for OUTBOUND tourism and onward connections in Europe, Asia and Africa.

Otherwise, the European market is well served, Martinair to Amsterdam, Condor/Thomas Cook and LTU to Germany, and a range of charter flights to Switzerland, Austria and Italy.

The Carribbean market is being expanded all the time, and I think we will see these routes increase in the future.

The South American market is weak at the moment, but I think there is scope for a Sao Paulo and maybe Buenos Aires service, the problem, again with this market it yield.

As far as the Asian market goes, there are more than enough connections available in Houston, Dallas, Seattle, Denver, LAX and SFO. Whilst I think a JAL or Korean flight would go out full down the back, not sure about the seats up front.

Regards

Mike


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32732 posts, RR: 72
Reply 21, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 4265 times:

Mexicana still flies here seasonally I believe on weekends. I have lived here less than a year and I have seen their A320s and 757s fly in along with seeing them on flytecomm.

I believe that all of Mexicana's flights to Orlando are chartered. They are not available on res systems, nor even MX' website (that could be just because of the dates I tried), but Orlando is listed as an MX destination.



a.
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