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AQ Interisland 737-200 Replacements  
User currently offlineLahaina From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 258 posts, RR: 0
Posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 4320 times:

Anyone out there with information as to when AQ will replace its fleet of 737-200 jets and with which plane? At one time AQ was looking at BAe 140 Avro jets. 737NG was ruled out because that aircraft would not be economical for interisland runs. That was before 9/11/01. After the down turn in interisland travel, everything was hush-hush. Anyone out there working for AQ that has info?

45 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineHawaiian717 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 3192 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 4257 times:

Actually, it was the Avro RJX that Aloha was looking at, and reported to be very close to ordering, but that program was cancelled.

David / MRY


User currently offlineAloha717200 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4479 posts, RR: 15
Reply 2, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 4178 times:

Zander has said that Aloha is looking for a repalcement down the road, but that there are no plans to replace the 732 fleet in the short-term. The 732 is actually more economical than any newer 737 model on the interisland routes because it was designed for such ultra-short haul, high-frequency ops. The newer 737s were designed for longer ranges and are at their most efficient on medium-long intracontinental routes. That's why Aloha didn't keep their 733s in the fleet...the wear and tear on the engines was just too much.


Aloha won't order the 717 unless it has to either...because HA flies the 717. And they won't order mainline turboprops either, residents and tourists alike vote with their pocket books and they chose jet travel within the hawaiian islands. That's part of the reason Mahalo failed, as well as the market not being large enough to support three major interisland carriers.


What about the E170? Well, afaik, that plane is in the same boat as the 737NG...designed for longer ranges on thin routes..not ultra-short-haul. Correct me if I am wrong. If I AM wrong, then I'd lay odds on the E170, but if I am correct, then I wouldn't.

So what will Aloha replace the 732 fleet with? Your guess is as good as mine. It won't be anytime soon though


User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16248 posts, RR: 56
Reply 3, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 4141 times:

Used 733's or 735's are the most likely.




Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineJe89_w From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 2360 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 4125 times:
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If AQ were to get a totally different aircraft, that would also reuqire training which takes time and money. For HA's case, it was a little easier training the DC-9 pilots into the B712.

But with the training, I also think the E-170 would be a close call.

AQ also had a few B734s which didn't work either. I believe there are no shots of it in the database though.


User currently offlineAloha717200 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4479 posts, RR: 15
Reply 5, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 4123 times:

Used 733's or 735's are the most likely.

Not at all. See Reply #2.


User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16248 posts, RR: 56
Reply 6, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 4108 times:

Many airlines use 733/735's on shorthauls. No reason why these types are ill-suited for AQ. If high cycles are a problem for the engine but the price is right, AQ might still go with them.




Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineJe89_w From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 2360 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 4105 times:
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Those B732s are tough tanks. Even though they are loud and "old", they seem to fit what is needed for AQ in terms of economical use.

One observation: upon takeoff, the B732 makes several backfire like sounds, is that normal?  Nuts


User currently offlineAloha717200 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4479 posts, RR: 15
Reply 8, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 4094 times:

No reason why these types are ill-suited for AQ.

It might seem that way, but Aloha did have 733s and 734s at one point and fully intended to replace their entire 732 fleet with these aircraft. And these were gotten for a good price afaik. They returned them because the aircraft were just too expensive to operate on interisland routes.

It doesn't matter how good of a price Aloha can get on these used 733s, because all of their 732s are also used. With a plentiful supply of 732s out there being retired from majors, it is cheaper for Aloha to continue to use those as they are more efficient on the interisland routes than the 733. It's the same situation with the 735. Aloha will continue to get used 732s over used 733/735 because for almost the same price they're getting a plane that is more efficient on the interisland routes.


User currently offlineAloha717200 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4479 posts, RR: 15
Reply 9, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 4086 times:

One observation: upon takeoff, the B732 makes several backfire like sounds, is that normal?


Compressor stalls. Quite common actually, I recall a Braniff (Brown) 727 was called the Brown Bomber because of it's compressor stalls. Big grin

I think, but am not sure, that this happens more on older aircraft and not so much on newer aircraft.


User currently offlineHAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2560 posts, RR: 53
Reply 10, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 4076 times:

Many airlines use 733/735's on shorthauls. No reason why these types are ill-suited for AQ. If high cycles are a problem for the engine but the price is right, AQ might still go with them.

Unfortunately for AQ (and HA) there is a huge difference between what Boeing and the rest of the airline industry considers 'short haul' and what the interisland 'short haul' really is.

Flight times interisland are often less than 20 minutes, where the typical UA/CO/NW/WN short trips are around an hour or more. As I've said before on this subject, the thing going against most of the current designs is weight. For each flight you have to haul those thousands of pounds of metal up into the air, only to bring it back down and do it over again. That costs in fuel and maintenance every time. The cheapest way to do this for the interisland market is use as lightweight a plane as you can get. Turboprops would be great, but as has been pointed out, the locals have been spoiled by jets and won't step foot on a turboprop. The 737's are sturdy and can handle the flight frequency, but the NG planes are just too heavy to be economical, and the engines just weren't made for that kind of frequent cycle operation. They break. That costs $.

Sure AQ could buy some used 733 or 735's at pretty low lease rates. Then what do they do when the planes end up spending half their time in the shop, costing them money instead of making it?

HA is getting away with using the 717's because they are lighter than the 737's and the engines were designed for that kind of frequent cycle operation. It's a close thing, but HA is making a profit interisland with the new planes.

The E170/190 may be a good plane for the market, but I'd wait until the plane has proven itself in other markets as being mechanically robust. The interisland ops is very, very, very hard on planes. You'd better make sure that what you're buying can withstand the rigors of the job.

HAL



One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
User currently offlineJe89_w From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 2360 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 4067 times:
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Can't help but chuckle every time I hear it, even when the plane is in the middle of its takoff roll, one can hear it.

There is nothing one can do about it?


User currently offlineAloha717200 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4479 posts, RR: 15
Reply 12, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 4058 times:

I'm not entirely sure but I believe compressor stalls happen when the speed of air entering the engine intake becomes too low...this could be caused by the aircraft pitch situation or simply too low of an airspeed than the engine is happy with.


Maybe someone from tech/ops can clarify exactly what causes a compressor stall. Am I in the neighborhood here?


User currently offlineJe89_w From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 2360 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 4083 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
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Good explanation HAL, well put.

It pretty much describes why AQ is still using the B732s, since they are meant for those shorthaul/high capacity routes. Looks like AQ will continue to keep those workhorse B732s through the distant future.


User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 14, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3919 times:

I think the new EMB jets are just the ticket if AQ wishes to not get a 717, but a longer service life would be a prerequisite.

N


User currently offlineAA737-823 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 5767 posts, RR: 11
Reply 15, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3903 times:

You know, if they'd give those 732s new cabins, they wouldn't be half bad. Maybe, something along the lines of the 737NG cabin. Bigger overheads, nice ceiling panels, etc... that'd go a long way in making those planes more comfortable/appealing.

R


User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 968 posts, RR: 51
Reply 16, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3870 times:

I don't know, even the newest 732s are approaching the end of their useful life. If this were NW I would say "sure," but it might not make sense to retrofit the interiors for an aircraft that has, at most, a few years left.

User currently offlineUA2162 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 495 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3845 times:

You know, if they'd give those 732s new cabins, they wouldn't be half bad. Maybe, something along the lines of the 737NG cabin.

It amazes me how well AQ maintains the cabins of their 732s. They have replaced all their seats with leather seats and often paint the insides of the cabin; the carpet even looks new. I bet a majority of the passengers that board these planes don't even realize many of them have been in service for almost 20 years. It would really be a waste of money to give their entire fleet new cabins when the old ones don't look so bad. Just a thought...


User currently offlineStarrion From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1126 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3841 times:

What makes you think that? The thing that detirmines useful life is cycles and hours -not- how many years it's been since it was produced.

I bet AQ could make a good deal with Delta to get some 732's with lots of life left so Delta could start taking some of the 738's they have on deferred order....



Knowledge Replaces Fear
User currently offlineJasperEMA From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 50 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3820 times:

High cycles = fatigue , did I remember right that the top peeled off a b737-200 in the land of surfboards?

User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16248 posts, RR: 56
Reply 20, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3808 times:

There will come a point when their 732 fleet will become more & more mx intensive and the pool of used 732's elsewhere will dry up. At that time (in 5 years? 8 years?), AQ will have to consider another type. What is it about the 733/735 CFM engine that makes it unsuitable for extreme shorthauls but the JT8D and RR/BMW are suitable?

Is it true that AQ has ruled out the 717 simply because HA has the 717? Isn't this a bit shortsighted?






Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineAloha717200 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4479 posts, RR: 15
Reply 21, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3779 times:

(in 5 years? 8 years?),


That's actually the time period that Zander is looking at. In the short term, the 732 will remain, but within a few years, Aloha will probably decide on a replacement.


The 733/735 engine was designed to operate most efficiently on routes over 1 hour in length. The plane was never intended to fly 30, 40, 50 minute segments repeatedly all day long. Basically you're forcing an aircraft to do a job it was never designed to do. As HAL pointed out, short-haul on the mainland is quite different than short-haul in Hawaii. Consider the route HNL-MKK that HA and WP fly. Do you realize that route is so short that aircraft are vectored for approach almost immediately after takeoff from HNL? Quite literally it's "you're up, and you're down", and HA uses a 717 on this route. Because it can handle it. The 733 would never handle such a routing day after day, year after year, without serious maintenance headaches.


User currently offlineAloha73g From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2362 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 3754 times:

As far as our shorthaul interisland routes you HAVE to remember that if the cities/towns were not on islands no airline would fly these routes, let alone with mainline jets. The 737-200s work great and for a 20-40 minute flight I find them to be very comfortable, and quite well maintained. They are proven and reliable and theres no reason to dump them as long as they are. When Aloha can no longer find old 732s with low cycles & hours then they will begin to seriously look for a replacement.

-Aloha!



Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
User currently offlineAloha717200 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4479 posts, RR: 15
Reply 23, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 3732 times:

aloha! I was beginning to wonder if you were still around! Big grin

User currently offlineLHcapt2007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 235 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3686 times:

And their cruise altitude on these interisland hops is normally what? A blast off to a flight level(very doubtful) or scream under FL180? I can only imagine how much fuel it would cost to reach a flight level for just a few minutes before you begin the descent! And vectoring for approaches upon takeoff infers these flights can't be much higher than the local MSAs or MEAs, and all this would seem to further compliment the 732 where the price is right anyway and fuel not as much of a factor on such short hauls per number of pax/cargo and overall comfort... So all the above guesses are legit for the jet spoiled passengers several years down the road.
So does anyone know the companys' normal cruising altitude?
Cheers,
LHcapt2007



TNCM
25 Aloha717200 : I think cruise altitudes interisland are anywhere from 14,000 feet up through 29,000 feet, depending on length. HNL-KOA would be up in the 20K feet ar
26 Lahaina : Please pardon my ignorance, but why can't Boeing retrofit the 737NG planes with JT8D or RR/BMW engines? Better yet, why won't they manufacture 737-200
27 Angelairways : just to note a few things that nobody has realised. 1. any aircraft on these routes would suffer from a heavy maintenance burden due to the high cycle
28 JBirdAV8r : Quite common actually, I recall a Braniff (Brown) 727 was called the Brown Bomber because of it's compressor stalls. I think, but am not sure, that th
29 JBirdAV8r : Please pardon my ignorance, but why can't Boeing retrofit the 737NG planes with JT8D or RR/BMW engines? Better yet, why won't they manufacture 737-200
30 Aloha717200 : Boeing wouldn't be affected at all. Aloha doesn't purchase their 732s through Boeing, afaik. I could be wrong but I don't think Aloha goes through Boe
31 HA_DC9 : Another thing to consider for an AQ 732 replacement that hasn't been mentioned in this thread, but on previous threads of the same topic is cargo capa
32 FullThrottle : CRJ 900 or 700? Could that work?
33 PSU.DTW.SCE : CRJ-700/-900, absolutley not! Way to small and would have weight/balance issues with tourists and their boatload of luggage. A couple of misconception
34 DfwRevolution : Way to small and would have weight/balance issues with tourists and their boatload of luggage. The CRJ-700 isn't that small, given the fact that its M
35 SuperDash : The answer really is simple. I am not sure anyone at Aloha or Hawaiian has the guts to do it. But if they do, they have the chance to knock the other
36 Aloha73g : As far as fares go....right now Aloha's are MUCH lower than Hawaiian's. Aloha's online-interisland coach fares are $59, $69, $79 or $89, First=$99 (al
37 Ha763 : Again and again, the interisland market has voted with its money that they want jet aircraft, not turboprops. And again, the Q400 does not have the ca
38 Aloha717200 : Buying Q400s might seem like a good idea but the locals and tourists prefer jet aircraft, and if they have a choice between paying 74 dollars on Hawai
39 RayChuang : My guess is that Embraer might be just willing to build a special version of the Embraer 170/190 specifically for Hawaiian inter-island service. Espec
40 HAL : My guess is that Embraer might be just willing to build a special version of the Embraer 170/190 specifically for Hawaiian inter-island service. Espec
41 Post contains images Aloha717200 : Yes, correction, it'd be the EMB-190 that AQ would want, if it ordered Embraer, that's closer to the pax capacity of the 732 than the E-170. Though ma
42 Post contains images Aloha717200 : Sorry about that, here's a repost: Yes, correction, it'd be the EMB-190 that AQ would want, if it ordered Embraer, that's closer to the pax capacity o
43 Bluewave 707 : This is definitely a hot topic among airline observers in Hawaii ... AQ is not revealing any of their options on any type of solutions. There are quit
44 Post contains links and images Ha763 : This picture is of a 737-700, but is also typical of the interisland cargo market. MyAviation.net photo: Photo © Erik Nugal There is no way any R
45 Je89_w : Nice screenshots AQ717200, and good job with the drawing! AQ and HA both carry cargo in the lower deck of the aircraft, and AQ's B732QC carry full loa
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