SWA TPA From United States, joined Aug 2001, 1514 posts, RR: 57 Posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 8361 times:
Ok, so I was working the gate the other day and bored out of my mind. I decided to follow one our 737-300's around the country, via our intranet/ OTIS, to see where he went.
Ending his day in BWI @ 11:50pm.
As for the loads, he could potentially have carried 1233 pax if he was full on every flight. His actual total bookings for that day ended up @ 880 pax.
Wow, you just dont realize how many butts have been in those seats before you throughout the day
B747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 1, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 8266 times:
Two years ago I was doing a utility study of various airlines for a client and came up with the following month (January 2002) in the life of N770SA, a 737-700 for Southwest.
767-332ER From United States, joined Mar 2001, 2028 posts, RR: 16 Reply 3, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 8047 times:
And there again, figure the regular life-span of these machines is about 25-30 yrs...goes to show you what wonderful machines airplanes really are...of course, like everything, proper maintenance has to be performed.
Regards
Twinjets...if one fails, work the other one twice as hard!!!
SWA TPA From United States, joined Aug 2001, 1514 posts, RR: 57 Reply 4, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 7970 times:
I was wondering about the crew changes myself. I dont really have access to that. Maybe OPNLguy would know that one. This was N357 (I am pretty certain) just this past Thursday.
Okie From United States, joined Jul 2003, 1144 posts, RR: 4 Reply 5, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 7880 times:
That is a lot of cycles on the airframe per day. While I know you can't keep that pace up forever due to scheduling and Mx it generates some interesting numbers to play with in anycase.
9 cycles per day X 7 days = 63 cycles per week
63 cycles per week X 52 weeks = 3,276 cycles per year
3,276 cycles per year X 15 years = 49,140 cycles
I think the airframes are either near the end of their life or major Mx after about 50,000 cycles
ATAIndy From United States, joined May 2004, 553 posts, RR: 6 Reply 6, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 7876 times:
I think it's simply amazing how many cycles those birds take each day, and how many miles they fly in a day. It just goes to show you how the system can bottleneck with just one delay.
Support Cape Air in Indiana and INDAirport.org too.
InnocuousFox From United States, joined Dec 2003, 2578 posts, RR: 25 Reply 7, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 7773 times:
Using data from the 1st Quarter of 2002 and thd 737-300/700 aircraft. First number is block hours per day, 2nd is flight hours per day:
F9 - 10.9 - 9.5
WN - 10.8 - 9.2
US - 8.8 - 6.7
CO - 8.0 - 6.6
HP - 7.5 - 6.1
DL - 7.4 - 6.0
UA - 6.9 - 5.6
Also, notice the difference in the ratio between block hours and flight hours. WNs is 87% flight hours. US is 76%. Talk about some serious utilization for Southwest!
Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!
Pe@rson From United Kingdom (England), joined Jan 2001, 16724 posts, RR: 58 Reply 8, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 7632 times:
"And there again, figure the regular life-span of these machines is about 25-30 yrs...goes to show you what wonderful machines airplanes really are...of course, like everything, proper maintenance has to be performed."
Thankfully maintenance at WN is very important indeed, evidenced by the sheer determination of all its maintenance staff and also by the fact that, on average, there will be 1 fatal crash per 2 million flights in the USA, but WN has flown over 9 million flights and has not had a fatal crash.
SpeedbirdHeavy From United States, joined Jan 2004, 427 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 7539 times:
This truly is one of the most interesting threads I've seen in this forum in quite awhile. I have often wondered about the daily travels of any aircraft. When I get off a plane, I always make it a point to look behind me to see where that aircraft is going next as I exit the gate area.
I'm sure if you look harder, you'll find even more amazing mileages covered. That particular 737 happened to stay in just a couple of sectors of the US. I'm sure there are planes that start flying around the East coast and eventually wind up on the West coast. All in a 16 hour span! Amazing!
I will never know how dispatchers keep track of all the aircraft either.
InnocuousFox From United States, joined Dec 2003, 2578 posts, RR: 25 Reply 12, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 7270 times:
"I will never know how dispatchers keep track of all the aircraft either."
Computers.
"So, this was just a single WN B737... Imagine all the work to coordinate the whole fleet"
Actually, it's not that tough to assign tail numbers to flights. As part of the artificial intelligence routines for our game, I had to do exactly that. The AI can take the fleet's current locations and aircraft types and match it with the schedule very easily. It will do it for hundreds of aircraft on thousands of daily flights in only a few moments. (Creating a balanced schedule was actually the hard part!)
Parts of the same routine can be used to recalculate assignments when there is a delay. It will find the most efficient way of reassigning aircraft to get the maximum utilization with the mimimum delay. If I can do it for a game, I'm quite sure the airlines have systems that do the same thing! It's not like the dispatchers are sitting there with index cards and a cork board!
Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!
OPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 13, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 7237 times:
>>>I will never know how dispatchers keep track of all the aircraft either.
Computers, my boy, computers...
There's an article in the May/June issue of Airliners on dispatchers written by a couple of cohorts at Delta, and in the pix you can see a little bit of their computers.
In years past, in the "Dark Ages" before computers, most airline dispatch offices used a proverbial "big board" with horizontally-oriented thin strips of posterboard cut to the length of the trip length. At common points, "swaps" could be made to change an aircraft's rount for whatever reason. At one airline I worked for, we actually had three of these big boards, the previous day's operation on the left, the current day in the middle, and the next day on the right. At the end of the day, all the boards (on rollers) would get moved to the left, except for the far left one which would get moved all the way to the right.
SWA TPA From United States, joined Aug 2001, 1514 posts, RR: 57 Reply 15, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 7033 times:
Yesterday I followed our flight 616 that starts out in TPA and goes to LAS. From there it ends up criss crossing the country to BWI and I believe back. It also makes a number of short hops around the west coast. I wish I could find the info I wrote down on it. It really impressed me.
Those planes really WORK during the day.
SpeedbirdHeavy From United States, joined Jan 2004, 427 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 6800 times:
Actually, it's not that tough to assign tail numbers to flights. As part of the artificial intelligence routines for our game, I had to do exactly that. The AI can take the fleet's current locations and aircraft types and match it with the schedule very easily. It will do it for hundreds of aircraft on thousands of daily flights in only a few moments
Ah yes, but then there are the "unforeseen circumstances" that can throw things out of whack. Like broken equipment and weather delays and such. When an aircraft needs to go out of service for some reason, that must really cause some headaches.
OPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 20, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 6737 times:
>>>Ah yes, but then there are the "unforeseen circumstances" that can throw things out of whack.
None the least of which is when all the last flights of the night are inbound to a MX base, and then said MX base goes below minimums.. Huge pain in the arse...
Atrude777 From United States, joined Aug 2003, 4175 posts, RR: 56 Reply 21, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 6648 times:
Ahhhh yes I remember doinmg that.
I was tracking a WN flght after I got off. it started the day in LAS, and flew to PHX, where it picked me up to take me home to STL...so then I got off and was curious to see where else it went..
LAS-PHX-STL-MDW-JAX-MCO-FLL-MSY-HOU-DAL That was in one day.
Then the next day it flew...
DAL-OKC-MCI-MDW-CLE-STL-HOU-DAL this was shorter IM guessing, and then after that I lost track....
Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
Star_world From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 1122 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 6504 times:
Spyglass From United States, joined Dec 2003, 90 posts, RR: 2 Reply 23, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 6349 times:
Tell ya what....this is one of the best, most informative threads I've seen here in a long time...everyone contributed a little and some asked the good questions for it to be really interesting. None of the infantile Airbus vs Boeing playground rock-throwing or I-hate-Xairline-orYairline...kudos to all contributors and hope your examples rub off on the bellyachers who seem to infest this site
chow
Ozzie From United States, joined Feb 2004, 338 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 6316 times:
I have experienced this myself. I have been onboard a WN 737 when the FAs will say something like "For those of you continuing on to *** and then *** and then ***.
At least they get good use out of there airplanes, and not one crash yet.
Atrude777 From United States, joined Aug 2003, 4175 posts, RR: 56 Reply 25, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 6205 times:
It truly is amazing the workload that the Southwest 737's go through every day and its amazing how they do it w/o a single crash..::knock on wood: I have to ask though, HOW is that posible? JUst simple luck? or How is Southwest Maintenance different and/or better from the other airlines? INteresting theory and a very good topic to work on!
Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
PROSA From United States, joined Oct 2001, 5288 posts, RR: 7 Reply 26, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 6155 times:
Using data from the 1st Quarter of 2002 and thd 737-300/700 aircraft. First number is block hours per day, 2nd is flight hours per day:
F9 - 10.9 - 9.5
WN - 10.8 - 9.2
US - 8.8 - 6.7
CO - 8.0 - 6.6
HP - 7.5 - 6.1
DL - 7.4 - 6.0
UA - 6.9 - 5.6
Also, notice the difference in the ratio between block hours and flight hours. WNs is 87% flight hours. US is 76%. Talk about some serious utilization for Southwest!
WN's heavy utilization of its aircraft is even more remarkable when you consider that they don't operate any red-eyes. Way to go!
InnocuousFox From United States, joined Dec 2003, 2578 posts, RR: 25 Reply 27, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 6033 times:
"It truly is amazing the workload that the Southwest 737's go through every day and its amazing how they do it w/o a single crash"
Uh... it's not THAT much more than the other airlines that it's so amazing they do it without crashing.
Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!
Okie From United States, joined Jul 2003, 1144 posts, RR: 4 Reply 29, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 5932 times:
WN has not been without a few accidents or incidents BUR being one of them but no fatalities.
Says a lot about Mx, pilot proficiency (4-5 landings per day), fleet commonality, and a good corporate attitude towards safety.
Atrude777 From United States, joined Aug 2003, 4175 posts, RR: 56 Reply 30, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 5839 times:
For Southwest safety records, its second behind QANTAS, and America West is 3rd I believe.
InnocuousFox-Name one other Major airline in the US that has NEVER had a crash........Cant be AA,UAL, USA, DL, NWA, CO, UAL, FL isnt major, and some say it belongs with valujet and they had a crash, and B6 is not major, so obviously WN is the only major to NEVER have a crash. so therefore its amazing.
theflcowboy- im reffering to fatal crashes, which WN has never had. It has had 3 disrupted landings.....ONT( left gear failed i believe) BUR over shot runway and SAN I believe or SJC where it over ran the runway due to rain on the runway.
The only fatal flight that anyone died on a WN plane would be the arrival into SLC from LAS I think where the passenger was killed by the paxs, howevr it was not done by an accident by the airline.
Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
OPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 31, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 5784 times:
>>>It has had 3 disrupted landings.....ONT ( left gear failed i believe) BUR over shot runway and SAN I believe or SJC where it over ran the runway due to rain on the runway.
Re: N331SW at ONT, left main gear only half-extended (strut hyper-extension, and inboard tire "caught" the lip). Aircraft repairs were completed in just 2 days...
Atrude777 From United States, joined Aug 2003, 4175 posts, RR: 56 Reply 32, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 5736 times:
It was some southern california airport, LAX, ONT, SNA, or SAN or SJC. it coudl have been SMF But I thought it was SAN. Basically there was heavy flooding on one fo the runways. and it skidded and went off the runway.
Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
Planespotting From United States, joined Apr 2004, 2892 posts, RR: 8 Reply 34, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 5655 times:
it's gotta be a lot more interesting being a Southwest pilot then working at a different carrier, the hub and spoke system can get pretty mundane........a teacher of mine who used tobe a 735 F/O gave me this as a good example of her usual routing in one day starting at 630 and ending at 10pm or so.
ORD-DSM
DSM-ORD
ORD-MSN
MSN-ORD
ORD-DEN
DEN-ORD
or:
replace DEN with DFW for AA or American Eagle.
Fight fight fight for Iowa, until the game. is. won! Go Hawks - 10-2!
Tbear815 From United States, joined Jun 2003, 704 posts, RR: 7 Reply 35, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 5549 times:
I do agree that this topic is truly interesting. Now, what about the routings of International A/C that have long airborne times? Example: A UA 744 ORD/HKG - then where? It would be interesting to follow one of those babies for a week and see where they go. A 737 is going to have a lot more rotations than a 744, but the time and distance of the 744 interests me. Thanks, gang!
InnocuousFox From United States, joined Dec 2003, 2578 posts, RR: 25 Reply 36, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 5386 times:
"InnocuousFox-Name one other Major airline in the US that has NEVER had a crash... [snip] so obviously WN is the only major to NEVER have a crash. so therefore its amazing."
Yes, but that wasn't the point of my post. My point was that the few extra hours that the plane is in the sky per day isn't going to greatly magnify their chances of having an accident. The two facts you were trying to compare are only loosely related.
Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!
InnocuousFox From United States, joined Dec 2003, 2578 posts, RR: 25 Reply 37, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 5298 times:
"the hub and spoke system can get pretty mundane"
I have to agree with that, although UA is starting to do a bit more wandering with their aircraft. You can get a 733 that starts in California, stops in DEN, stops someplace in the Plains, goes through ORD and then moves on to someplace out east. They have been doing that for a while now. It's not really P2P but it's a multi-hub flow rather than a strict single-hub out-and-back run.
I'm still shaking my head at the guy the other day who tried to tell me that NO airline in the States ran a hub-and-spoke network anymore - that they all went away with deregulation.
Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!
Bruce From United States, joined May 1999, 4950 posts, RR: 28 Reply 40, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 5027 times:
This might be a technical question in the civil forum.....but which is harder on an aircraft: continuous long haul flights or numerous short hops like this WN 737?
The long haul jetliner might not be doing as many cycles per day but is constantly under the stress of pressurized flight.
Here at Huntsville we have a cargo service that uses 1 747-400 and operates 7x per week. It is rarely on the ground, only a few hours out of 24. A typical route is ELLX-HSV-MEX-GDL-MIA-HSV-EGPK-ELLX sometiems leaving out the MIA stop but this route is repeated every day, since last summer when they switched aircraft for some reason. It also carries more weight than a pax 747 as most freighters do. The difference I guess is that it won't do this route for the entire life of the aircraft; I'm sure at some point it will be re-assigned to some other part of the world. The Southwest 737 will do these same routes from the day it is delivered till the day it gets ferried to the scrap.
bruce
Bruce Leibowitz - Green Bay, WI (GRB/KGRB) - Canon 20D/100-400L IS lens
Cactus739 From United States, joined Jan 2004, 2285 posts, RR: 44 Reply 41, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 4906 times:
On a WN flight last month from PHX-MCI, I had a few minutes to talk with one of the flight attendants. They had started their day in PHX then to LAS, SJC, LAS, PHX, MCI then a 15 hour layover. I think it would be interesting to hear from a couple WN flight attendants about their routings... maybe SWAFA30 could entertain us with a couple days of his travels?
Flyboy80 From United States, joined Jul 2001, 1644 posts, RR: 5 Reply 43, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 4618 times:
I have a question for you WN F/As...is it procedure that when the aircraft arrives at the gate, that you slightly open or "crack" specific doors on the aircraft... I notice this while watching WN aircraft at stations where the planes are catered. If it is a procedure it makes sense, it insures no slide deployments, that is if the F/A doesn't do it! Also, as opposed to other airlines (Except america west) I notice that instead of the gate agent operating the main cabin door, the F/As often crack it often immediately after the aircraft blocks, and when the gate is about a foot or so out they hold it open half way or so and then the Ops agent takes it... This is all quite interesting to a 16 yr old...can anyone of you explain this?
737doctor From United States, joined Mar 2001, 1332 posts, RR: 52 Reply 44, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 4553 times:
How great is this? I fly to Austin to see my daughter this morning and then come home to a LUVfest for our MX department. I just want to say that my fellow mechanics are the hardest working, most resourceful bunch of men and women in the business (not to insult any other mechanics from our competitors, because I have great respect for many of my brothers and sisters elsewhere). But, I have seen other airlines MX departments and we truly do more with less. Our company has the luxury of hiring the best mechanics in the industry and I work alongside mechanics who excelled at virtually every other domestic airline but left for the greener pastures at Southwest. We are very proud of our safety record and every day I am proud to work with such an excellent group of mechanics.
Cloudy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 45, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 4491 times:
This might be a technical question in the civil forum.....but which is harder on an aircraft: continuous long haul flights or numerous short hops like this WN 737?
The long haul jetliner might not be doing as many cycles per day but is constantly under the stress of pressurized flight
---------
Continuous shorthaul is far harder on the aircraft. Takeoffs and landings (especially landings) are the main points of flight that stress an airframe. Shorthaul generates more of these.
As for pressurization: for an aircraft, BEING pressurized is not nearly as stressful as the process of BECOMING pressurized. Each time an aircraft is pressurized and depressurized, it adds stress to the airframe. The time spent pressurized at high altitude does stress the airframe a bit but this effect is swamped by the effect of pressurizing and depresurizing.
Here's an illustration. Blow a balloon up and let it sit for an hour. Now take a second balloon and blow it up, deflate it, and then blow it up again continually for an hour. After an hour, which balloon would be in better shape? Aircraft (and all pressurized vessels) are like balloons - it is the change in pressurization that causes the most stress, not the pressurization itself.
For the airframe - it is cycles (takeoffs and landings) that matter, not hours or miles because of the reasons mentioned above. That is why airframe maintenance is scheduled more according to cycles than hours. A plane used for shorthaul will undergo more stress and therefore need more airframe maintenance because it is generating cycles much faster than a longhaul plane.
As for engines, the same thing is true but to a lesser degree. Engine wear is mainly determined by how many hours an engine is run - but the number of times it is brought to takeoff thrust also plays a role. My guess is that the high number of times a shorthaul aircraft's engines have to go to takeoff thrust outweigh the greater number of hours a longhaul engine accumulates - so a shorthaul engine undergoes more stress on most days.
This does NOT mean that shorthaul aircraft are unsafe because they wear out more quickly. They do need more maintenance per hour and day flown than longhaul aircraft do, but this is accounted for in regulations and in airline maintenance practices.
IN SHORT.... Shorthaul flying is much harder on aircraft, systems and engines than longhaul flying is. This is true just about however you measure it, and it is a major factor in the extra expense of shorthaul flying. The fact that Southwest has a very low cost per seat flown one mile is all the more remarkable because they do a lot of shorthaul flying.
Av8trxx From United States, joined Nov 2001, 654 posts, RR: 10 Reply 46, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 4384 times:
"I have a question for you WN F/As...is it procedure that when the aircraft arrives at the gate, that you slightly open or "crack" specific doors on the aircraft... "
This is done to indicate to the ground personnel that the slides have been disengaged. That way the Ops agent can open the forward door and the provo agent can open the rear doors and they can begin doing their jobs. If a door is not cracked, the agents must knock on the door till a F/A on the inside cracks it indicating it is now safe to open. Sometimes they get distracted and start cleaning and walk away after disarming the slide in the rear gallery without cracking the door. Since we can't open it unless we are sure it's safe, I often pull the handle and bang it against the door (it spins freely without engaging it in the detent) as they can hear that way inside the cabin. That usually works faster than calling Ops to relay a message to the cockpit to give to the F/As.
Swardu From United States, joined May 2004, 79 posts, RR: 0 Reply 47, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 4289 times:
Good job SWA TPA. What amazes me though, is how the Schedule Planning Dept can put all this together with the maintanence lines, 737-200 lines, the SNA lines, etc. There are actually about 14 people in the entire Schedule Planning Dept at our Headquarters in Dallas, who put these flight schedules together. And they have to fight through keeping the 200's on specific lines, which are also maint. lines, and of course you now have the 500's being scheduled for DAL now and trying to keep 700's from blowing a curfew in SNA. The list is endless, it amazes me that it all comes together and looks like a "Ballet In The Air".
7Seas From United States, joined Nov 2003, 31 posts, RR: 0 Reply 49, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 4002 times:
Hate to burst anyone's bubble but someone further back in the thread said WN turn times are usually 20-25 minutes. Many in the company and media still subscribe to this fantasy number. The shortest turn time published in the timetable is 25 minutes. There are a few 20 minute turns scheduled but these are only on between the last sectors of the day late at night when the loads are very light such as a TPA-FLL or somewhere in Texas. Most scheduled turns are 25-30 minutes with some scheduled for 35. In reality it usually takes 30-35 minutes to turn a full in/full out airplane, but have seen some turns of 40 minutes or more.
Sponsor Message: 
From United States, joined Aug 2001, 1514 posts, 
From , joined Dec 1969, posts, 
.gif){kind=small}
From United Kingdom (England), joined Jan 2001, 16724 posts, 
From Canada, joined May 2001, 3627 posts, 
From Austria, joined Apr 2004, 3589 posts, 
From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 1122 posts, 
Printer friendly format 
