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Outrageous Prices On WestJet...  
User currently offlineVio From Canada, joined Feb 2004, 1446 posts, RR: 10
Posted (10 years 7 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 4609 times:

Hey all,

I fly at least 4 - 5 times a year from Calgary to Ontario (Windsor). There are direct flights between YYC - YQG, (or YXU, or YYZ... 2nd & 3rd choice respectively).... Anyway, lately I found out, that Air Canada has cheaper flights to Windsor than Westjet. (Ofcourse connecting in YYZ then hop on a Dash 8 to YQG)...

What's going on???

Any reason for this?


Superior decisions reduce the need for superior skills.
42 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAirbusfanYYZ From Canada, joined Oct 2002, 1436 posts, RR: 25
Reply 1, posted (10 years 7 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 4308 times:

Westjet is cheaper on certain sectors, but their flights to/from YYZ are not cheaper than AC IMHO.

Cheers,
Kaz



t.dot photography
User currently offlineAC_B777 From Canada, joined Aug 2000, 809 posts, RR: 13
Reply 2, posted (10 years 7 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 4243 times:

I was looking at flights from YQX-YEG for my wife's uncle a couple of weeks ago, and Westjets price was almost $200 more than AC's.
Also, he had to wait 4 or 5 days before he could fly out of YQX on WJ where as with AC, we have a number of daily flights out of YQX that connect in YYT.
The routing on WJ would also mean that to get to YEG, he would be connecting numberous times and it would take about 6 extra hours to get to YEG than if he flew AC.
He actually ended up driving there!

AC_B777



In life, some days you are the bug..... some days you are the windshield!
User currently offlineSamurai 777 From Canada, joined Jan 2000, 2459 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (10 years 7 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 4152 times:

Vio, two words: Predatory pricing.

It's a very common tactic that major established carriers use to try to drive out any competition, especially low cost carriers.

This is basically what AC's been resorting to in order to both stay alive as a carrier and try to beat the crap out of WestJet, both which are not working very well right now!

However, WestJet's fares can be cheaper if you look well enough - and book well enough ahead of time. The same goes for multi-city flights, as I've noticed before while having booked last year on YEG-YYC-YVR-YEG, with a day's stay in YYC.

[Edited 2004-05-19 17:53:51]

User currently offlineBOAC707 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 278 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (10 years 7 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 4063 times:

Samarai777...

I may have agreed with you until I tried to book a flight last night YYZ to YVR, and of Air Canada, Skyservice, Harmony, Jetsgo, and West Jet, West Jet was the highest of all of them. I highly doubt that the other four are all predatory on West Jet.

In the past also, WestJet has not been too competitive with prices. I truly think that WestJet should have stayed West where they were successful and very competitive. There expansion is costing to much and is being represented in their fares.



smokey classics to the end of time
User currently offlineBriboy From Canada, joined Jul 2001, 367 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (10 years 7 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 4047 times:

Hello

I would not say it is "only" predatory pricing. WS is offering direct flights YYC YQG, whilst AC makes you change planes in YYZ. WS can charge a premium on this, for the convenience.

NL service is something different...

/Brian



next up: YYC, SFO, SYD, AKL, WLG, CMB, BKK, SIN, FRA, VCE, JFK
User currently offlineRT514 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (10 years 7 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 4045 times:

I booked for an upcoming flight YWG-YOW, just yesterday.

WS was the most expensive.


User currently offlineAvt007 From Canada, joined Jul 2000, 2132 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (10 years 7 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 4010 times:

Poor old AC can't win- if they charge a lot, they are gouging, and if they are competitive, it is "predatory pricing".

User currently offlineSamurai 777 From Canada, joined Jan 2000, 2459 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (10 years 7 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3968 times:

RT514 and BOAC707

How far ahead of time are you guys booking your flights?

I don't doubt it's not only predatory pricing, WS does have lesser competition on certain routes. I should've said that, but you guys already did, and I appreciate that anyways. But I know there is predatory pricing going on, and once again, that is not the only reason WS's prices are higher. It's very likely that due to AC's impending liquidation, increased passenger demand for WS will increase - and so will the fares.

Let me tell you something. About a month ago, I booked YEG-YVR return on WS, too. This is the flight I'm leaving on tonight, BTW. Which had the cheaper flights to YVR? Not WS, that's for sure. Why did I still choose WS anyways? Look at AC's growing problems and that's why. Not to mention that I'm a little sick and tired of dealing with AC's inconsistent service (aka Zip on that city-pair) for the time being, anyways.


User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (10 years 7 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3941 times:

But I know there is predatory pricing going on

Are you applying the "incremental cost" or the "avoidable cost" test to determine this?


User currently offlineRT514 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (10 years 7 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3897 times:

RT514 and BOAC707
How far ahead of time are you guys booking your flights?


Departure on May 26, return on June 1 and I booked yesterday afternoon. AC Zip and Jetsgo were comperable. WS was significantly more.


User currently offlineTango-Bravo From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3806 posts, RR: 29
Reply 11, posted (10 years 7 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3845 times:

Goes to show what fools the "legacy" airlines of Canada and the U.S. be. AC can resort to all the predatory (or competitive if you prefer) pricing they wish. The only thing they will accomplish by so doing is to further depress already unsustainably low yields. What they don't seem to get in their egomaniacal retaliation attempt against West Jet is that the only airline AC will hurt is themselves. Sure, AC will "pack 'em in" with their retaliatory fares but they will continue to bleed red ink in the process and further lower expectations as to what pax should pay to fly. And, if the situation is the same "north of the border" as it is in the U.S., the "legacy/would-be cartel" airlines are slowly but surely running out of markets where they can gouge pax to cover the losses of their futile fare follies aimed squarely at the LCCs.

User currently offlineElwood64151 From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 2477 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (10 years 7 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 3836 times:

Okay, one more time for good measure:

LCCs are priced low when comparing the walk-up, fully-refundable fares. It is quite common to find the majors beating an LCC in the advance purchase market, but when you have to fly tomorrow the LCCs will (almost) always beat the majors.



Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it in summer school.
User currently offlineSamurai 777 From Canada, joined Jan 2000, 2459 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (10 years 7 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 3744 times:

There expansion is costing to much and is being represented in their fares.

Makes sense when you think about it. It's not just the expansion costs such as paying more landing fees, more employees, etc. But also fitting the 73Gs with new winglets and LiveTV. And need we mention WS's order for dozens of 73Gs, plus 5 738s? I don't know how much it costs for WS to have newwinlgets installed or to get LiveTV, but it must be a fair bit. A new 73G can cost something like $35-45 million each (not sure of the exact cost though), so that's well over a billion dollars. And that's just for the new planes.


User currently offlineBO__einG From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 2771 posts, RR: 18
Reply 14, posted (10 years 7 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3732 times:

Just wait till WestJet starts flights into the United States.

I am betting that their discount fame won't be so much as a "discount" when you pay to go down to places like LAX. Otherwords I am expecting that prices will be much higher for transborder routes.



Chance favors the prepared mind.
User currently offlineAC_B777 From Canada, joined Aug 2000, 809 posts, RR: 13
Reply 15, posted (10 years 7 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3676 times:

So if AC's prices are predatory, then what do you call the bulls*#t that WS did to AC by accessing the private AC employee website to get their hands on confidential information that they are not welcome to? I guess that's not predatory? How about the information WS was given by the YYC airport authority president? I guess that's all fair game.
I always thought the point of competition was to be able to at least meet the price of your competitor if not beat it.
If Walmart has a TV for sale, and Futureshop has the same TV for less, is Futureshop guilty of predatory pricing? They are able to meet that price and then even beat it. Then why can't AC meet or beat some of WS prices?
Like BOAC707 said almost every other airline in Canada has at some point had lower prices than WS, so how come they don't get charged with predatory pricing? I think you are just trying to use the same old excuses against AC.

Briboy, what do you mean that "NL service is something different...?"



In life, some days you are the bug..... some days you are the windshield!
User currently offlineFallingeese From Canada, joined Apr 2001, 2097 posts, RR: 17
Reply 16, posted (10 years 7 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3640 times:

Let me be the first to say some of Westjet's pricing sucks!

I'm heading to Toronto in June, and was planning on booking my fare a couple of days ago. But unfortuntly alot has came up, and I was unable to book at $129.98 oneway, so it would be about $350.00 round trip. Today I log on to book my flight, and I see that fares are now sitting between $200, and $242 one way. I'm a student, and am on a tight budget. What really ticks me off is that fact that if I travel with a partner, the fare is then only $149.98 each way per person.

Any Calgary spotters want to goto Toronto for a few days Big grin



Mark McWhirter...Contrails Photography
User currently offlineSamurai 777 From Canada, joined Jan 2000, 2459 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (10 years 7 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3614 times:

NL service is something different...

I was wondering about that, too. What the hell does that mean!?


User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (10 years 7 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3570 times:

Samurai_777, you made an allegation earlier on this thread that Air Canada was engaging in "predatory pricing". I have asked whether you based your analysis of this upon the "incremental cost" test or the "avoidable cost" test?

User currently offlineSlawko From Canada, joined May 1999, 3799 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (10 years 7 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3559 times:

LOL Sean......hehehehehe


"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
User currently offlineGoose From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 1840 posts, RR: 15
Reply 20, posted (10 years 7 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 3500 times:

If Walmart has a TV for sale, and Futureshop has the same TV for less, is Futureshop guilty of predatory pricing?

It depends on whether Future Shop sold said TV at a loss or not. Future Shop tends to make a profit, so I'm guessing they don't commonly sell things below their overhead costs.

Air Canada has been guilty of selling seats below their costs in order to drive out competition - and their billion-dollar losses are testament to a flawed outlook toward the industry and how to act when it comes to pricing and competition.

As for WestJet selling seats below cost.... well, they almost certainly do on some routes. But they certainly don't make a habit of it - after all, they've been profitable for, what, 29 quarters now?



"Talk to me, Goose..."
User currently offlineElwood64151 From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 2477 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (10 years 7 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 3455 times:

So if AC's prices are predatory, then what do you call the bulls*#t that WS did to AC by accessing the private AC employee website to get their hands on confidential information that they are not welcome to? I guess that's not predatory? How about the information WS was given by the YYC airport authority president? I guess that's all fair game.

No, that's not predatory. It's corporate espionage, and as long as they broke no laws while getting the info, they've done nothing wrong. AC better learn to protect itself better.

If Walmart has a TV for sale, and Futureshop has the same TV for less, is Futureshop guilty of predatory pricing? They are able to meet that price and then even beat it. Then why can't AC meet or beat some of WS prices?

If futureshop sells thousands of them and their other products at prices they know they can't make money at in an effort to drive Wal-Mart out of the market, then yes, it is predatory pricing.

It depends on whether Future Shop sold said TV at a loss or not. Future Shop tends to make a profit, so I'm guessing they don't commonly sell things below their overhead costs.

It depends on more than that. Future Shop would have to be working to drive Wal-Mart out, in other words, selling every competing product at a loss consistently in order to make the market un-attractive to Wal-Mart. In addition, Wal-Mart would have to show that the change in resource distribution by Future Shop adversely affects the company's overall business model, not just in this particular market.

There's a lot that goes into it.

Air Canada has been guilty of selling seats below their costs in order to drive out competition - and their billion-dollar losses are testament to a flawed outlook toward the industry and how to act when it comes to pricing and competition.

As for WestJet selling seats below cost.... well, they almost certainly do on some routes. But they certainly don't make a habit of it - after all, they've been profitable for, what, 29 quarters now?


Well, I don't know if it's selling seats below cost at AC, or if it's bad utilization of resources, as we see so often at USA carriers.

And let's face it: No airline makes money when they sell seats at $29 each way these days, no matter what the route (okay, okay, there are probably *some* exceptions!). It's the reduced- and no-restrictions fares that make money for the airlines.



Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it in summer school.
User currently offlineAC_B777 From Canada, joined Aug 2000, 809 posts, RR: 13
Reply 22, posted (10 years 7 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3405 times:

"No, that's not predatory. It's corporate espionage, and as long as they broke no laws while getting the info, they've done nothing wrong. AC better learn to protect itself better"
AC should learn to protect itself better? It's a private AIR CANADA EMPLOYEE website that is supposed to be accessed by AIR CANADA employees only! NOT Westjet or any of their executives or employees.
Westjet should never have gone into it or even asked the former AC employee to give his AC employee number and PIN.
I would say laws have been broken and if the courts find WS guilty of breaking laws, there is going to be trouble at headquarters.



In life, some days you are the bug..... some days you are the windshield!
User currently offlineVonRichtofen From Canada, joined Nov 2000, 4638 posts, RR: 36
Reply 23, posted (10 years 7 months 5 days ago) and read 3364 times:

Probably because the WJ flights were already almost sold out  Big thumbs up


Word
User currently offlineCanadaEH From Canada, joined Jul 2003, 1341 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (10 years 7 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3313 times:

I'll give you guys two simple reasons for "higher" prices on Westjet flights:

1. Loads. As the load goes up, so do the fares. With the uncertainty over Air Canada our ticket sales for the summer have been phenominal. Loads across the board are way up over the "normal" booking trends that we've seen in the past few years.
2. Sustainable pricing. With the competition landscape the way it has been in the past year/year and a half, seat sales have been constant. If I'm not mistaken, we sold 56% of our tickets at a discounted price last quarter. That is simply not sustainable in the long-term. Both AC and WJ have raised fares to levels which we probably saw back in 2002 and early 2003.

Fuel is at an all time high and Nav Can isn't doing anybody favours by raising their fees. The travelling public has been very lucky in the past few years with all these cheap seats, but we knew it wasn't forever. I understand that we all want cheap seats, I don't blame anybody for being angry at higher fares. If you think Westjet charges 'too much' or higher than Air Canada, let me ask you this: what were the prices on those routes 5, 10, 15 years ago? I'll bet you the answer is a LOT higher than they are now.



EH.
25 Captaingomes : Good points Brandon, the low fares that people are becoming accustomed to seeing as specials are not sustainable. The past couple of years have seen a
26 Dash8King : I'm guessing he chose the Tango fare and there is no way that those fares aren't predatory. I often fly Westjet when booking with my own money even if
27 Samurai 777 : B747-437B, LOL! I'm sorry, but you're kind of asking me to go way over my head regarding "incremental" and "avoidable costs". I am not an expert on ec
28 Post contains images B747-437B : you're kind of asking me to go way over my head regarding "incremental" and "avoidable costs". I am not an expert on economics or marketing So let me
29 Post contains images AirbusfanYYZ : Things that make you go hmm.... Sean, LOL! Cheers, Kaz
30 Post contains images Samurai 777 : So let me get this straight. You ARE able to throw out serious allegations about Air Canada engaging in "predatory pricing", but you ARE NOT able to e
31 B747-437B : Thank you for the wonderful explanation as to what predatory pricing is about. That still does not answer the question I asked, namely whether you hav
32 Post contains images Captaingomes : Sean, I've told you many times before. You are truly evil when you want to be! Great work Samurai on your research!
33 Post contains images Samurai 777 : or the "pulled it out of my rear end" test. LOL Hey, I like that sense of humor of yours, Sean! But remember, you started this argument, not me! Thing
34 Post contains images B747-437B : Samurai, thank you for yet another response that dodges the question. I am not asking which of the tests you favored. To be quite honest, I really don
35 Chock head : The absence of any answer from you on this issue, as well as the lack of any data to support your conclusions leads me to believe that you have not ap
36 Post contains images B747-437B : The competition bureau reached the conclusion that AC was engaged in predatory pricing practices agains C3 right before C3 went Tango Uniform. It is n
37 Chock head : Whether they reached that conclusion or not will never be known since the official order to cease-and-desist was never signed. Well playing semantics
38 B747-437B : The only reason the cease and decist order was not signed was because as we all know C3 went TU. Thats pure speculation. Maybe the order was not signe
39 Chock head : Well it is not speculation...the board released their findings. You may chose to believe that it was not real because it did not get implemented befor
40 B747-437B : Well it is not speculation...the board released their findings. The board can release their findings, but they do not have standing until and unless a
41 Chock head : I don't think that we are going to agree on this one. I feel your point is weak and you do not. If you need the last word on this I won't bother to po
42 Post contains images Samurai 777 : The absence of any answer from you on this issue, as well as the lack of any data to support your conclusions leads me to believe that you have not ap
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