Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Air India To "re-evaluate" A340-300 Selection  
User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 7593 times:

Informal discussions on Monday between Praful Patel, the new Minister of Civil Aviation and top Air India officials have led to an unofficial request for Air India to "re-evaluate" their choice of Airbus 340-300 aircraft for the airlines' fleet evaluation plan.

The airline is expected to complete the review of current proposals from both Boeing and Airbus including updated pricing, financing and delivery schedules within the next few weeks and revert to the ministry if any changes in market conditions have been identified. The option to the Airbus 340-300 would be the Boeing 777 family of products.

Further details will be provided as they become known.

88 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBrons2 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3007 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 7452 times:

As much as I would like to see the 777 win this order....that's nuts. How many times and for how long are they going to fight over this order? Why don't they just put it to a nationwide referendum or something....lol.

At this rate, neither plane will ever be ordered.



Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
User currently offline9V-SVA From Singapore, joined Aug 2001, 1860 posts, RR: 8
Reply 2, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 7440 times:

And that will take another what, seven years? By then the B777 and A340 would be almost obsolete!

9V-SVA



9V-SVA | B772ER
User currently offlineTrvlr From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 4430 posts, RR: 21
Reply 3, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 7378 times:

Slightly off-topic question--what political party does Praful Patel belong to?

Aaron G.


User currently offlineIndianguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 7360 times:

Prafull Patel would do better to concentrate on improving the airport infrastructure that try to meddle in airline decision making process.

If this is really true and not one of Seans "experiments" then i must say it is a sad day for Indian aviation!!

-Roy


User currently offlineIndianguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 7328 times:

I just had to crosscheck this shocker. I can confirm that Mr.Prafull Patel has NOT, repeat NOT said that the A340-300 deal would be reexamined. All that he has said is that the reasons for delay in the deal would be examined.

Heres what he said:

“We are going through the proposals of both IA and A-I. I must see what had happened (on their proposals). "

"Under no circumstances will we allow any more delays in fleet acquisition," Patel said.



Patel is said to be close to some Boeing officials like Dinesh Keskar. But it is unlikely that he will be able to swing such a deal around at this stage without being forced to tender his resignation! Remember the controversy that was caused when IC changed its decision overnight to go from 757's to A320's? Would Prafull Patel now stick his neck out to overturn a decision that the airline had taken?

-Roy


User currently offlineJAL777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 7303 times:

And this is why ladies and gentlemen, India isn't as developed as it should be. Its not that the people aren't smart enough, but the shear amount of bureaucracy makes the US look like anarchy. Unbelievable.

User currently offline9V-SVC From Singapore, joined Oct 2001, 1797 posts, RR: 10
Reply 7, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 7223 times:

As usual the anti-airbus bashers will always be around.

Well, no wonder they are taking so long to comfirm this deal. By the way, their order for the 738s are comfirmed right ?



Airliners is the wings of my life.
User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 7212 times:

A new government, a new bunch of crooks.

What did you expect?

By now, someone, somewhere in the new GOI is establishing a commission to investigate the Airbus-NDA deal. More $$$ will trade hands between the large aircraft manufacturers and the new government.

As usual, nothing will come of any of this.


User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 7195 times:

I can confirm that Mr.Prafull Patel has NOT, repeat NOT said that the A340-300 deal would be reexamined

Nobody said he had said that. I simply said that AI officials were unofficially requested to re-examine the deal and get back to him. Its a good thing as far as I can tell - he simply wants to make sure that the Airbus was AI's legitimate best selection and not forced on them by any of his predecessors. This isn't a negative thing - its simply a re-evaluation.


User currently offlineDl021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11446 posts, RR: 76
Reply 10, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 7160 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Is anyone surprised by this? How long did it take India to complete the deal for Hawk Trainers they truly need?


Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineAF-A319 From France, joined Oct 1999, 603 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 7146 times:

Ahhh, politics and busines...! Will it stop sometime?

User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 7138 times:

BTW Roy, Patel's exact comments to the media were as follows :

"We are going through the proposals of both IC and AI. I must see what had happened before arriving at any decision in 2004. I want both the airlines to take a long term view and re-examine their proposals. If their decisions are right let them go ahead with it. My main obective is to strengthen both the airlines."

Don't put the cart before the horse and immediately assume that the order will be overturned. By all accounts, the decision to pick the A340 was a legitimate one influenced by the significantly cheaper acquisition and operating costs so there is no reason to assume there will be any change unless Boeing wants to chop some serious $ off their pricetag.

My info came from AI sources who were putting the wheels into motion for this "re-evaluation". I hadn't even read Patel's comments until I ran a google search a few minutes ago but they seem to back up what both of us have found out.

[Edited 2004-06-01 06:22:01]

User currently offlineMrniji From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 6946 times:

[Patel:]I want both the airlines to take a long term view and re-examine their proposals. If their decisions are right let them go ahead with it. My main obective is to strengthen both the airlines."

Man, this will be a never-ending story. Haven't they already spent long enough to re-evaluate?? And now again?? If he wants to handle in their interest he should just let them go without taking an initiative.

Or is Boeing again exerting pressure and trying to reverse AI's legitimate and free decision?? C'mon Boeing, the battle is lost, at least we are ordering some 738s for sympathy... This Dinesh Keskar seems to be a weird person... They will never let loose if they can make money, even if they harm others.

I personally don't really care any more which a/c is ordered (since I think that all are great a/c), but only care that an order is placed asap!


I hope they stay now with the choice and don't start a new process again. Within the re-evaluation, are they also considering 'upgrading' the order to the A345 (from the 343)?


User currently offlineIndianguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 6823 times:

Prafull Patel may want another peek into the files. But I draw comfort from his statement that the acquisition process will not be further delayed.

So i dont really expect a switch from the original choice in the long range component of the AI order.

-Roy


User currently offlineSkyguy From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 480 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 6624 times:

Folks,
I think Praful Patel's re-examination makes sense provided that it really is that and not another delay inducing paper chase.

I guess his comments were aimed with objective of ensuring exactly what Sean said, that is the deal was done with adequate due diligence and there was no undue political pressure to accept the Airbus contract if commercial/technical evaluation suggested that in fact Boeings offer was better. If that was the case then this will be apparent soon.

Hopefully this will not take long and they will go ahead with the deal asap.



"Those who talk, do not know, and those who know, do not talk."
User currently offlineFlyhigh@tom From India, joined Sep 2001, 390 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 6413 times:

Oh God!!!!
Why can we just get the planes for a change? If the re-evaluation gets going then it will be again like the Hawk trainers...how many young IAF pilots have already lost their lives in Mig 21s et all...hmm now even Jaguars are falling out of the sky :-(

AI badly needs new long range a/cs ..why the heck cant we just buy them? I hope Mr. Patel actually means like what many here have understood...just speedy acquisition with long term needs in mind.

Cheers
Tom.



User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 6398 times:

Whats the used A343 market like?

Are any carriers looking to dump them, or put them on lease?


User currently offlineDonder10 From Canada, joined Oct 2001, 6659 posts, RR: 22
Reply 18, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 6385 times:

Whats the used A343 market like?

Are any carriers looking to dump them, or put them on lease?

Maybe a few of the ex SQ ones still floating around.Gulf Air picked up 2 I think not too long ago.


User currently offlineRichard28 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2003, 1603 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 6372 times:

VS will have some for sale soon won't they?

User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 6148 times:

Further to this, Boeing has allegedly offered an additional discount of Rs.7 billion (US$ 150 million) if Indian Airlines would be willing to change their planned order for 43 Airbus 320 family aircraft to Boeing products instead.

http://www.financialexpress.com/fe_full_story.php?content_id=60451

Boeing is currently working on a discount package on the Boeing 777s for Air India. Rumor is that they will chop approximately 30% off of the up-front costs, but contingent on Air India opting for additional leased Boeing 747-400s on an interim basis until delivery slots for the Boeing 777s become available.


User currently offlineThe777Man From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 6491 posts, RR: 55
Reply 21, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 6014 times:

Good news! Hopefully AI will come to their senses and order 777s! From what I can remember, it was recommended by the technical commitee.

The777Man



Need a Boeing 777 Firing Order....Further to fly....CI, MU, LX and LH 777s
User currently offlineRayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 7985 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 5982 times:

In my opinion, the A340-300 is too small a plane for AI's long distance routes. People are forgetting that India has a very large population (over 1,000 million people estimated as of 2003!) and there is just from sheer numbers enough people in the country to fly larger planes. Why do you think both SQ and EK has such a huge presence flying in and out of India?

AI--if it wants to stay with the A340 series--should seriously consider converting their A343 orders to the A340-600HGW when that becomes available in 2006.


User currently offlineAirTran737 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3702 posts, RR: 12
Reply 23, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 5963 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Hopefully they change their minds and go with the Boeing order. While their at it, maybe they could work on that livery of theirs too.


Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 5937 times:

"People are forgetting that India has a very large population (over 1,000 million people estimated as of 2003!)"

Yes, but about 95% of them can barely afford to take the bus, much less than fly an airplane.


25 BWIA 772 : RayChuang If you knew anything about the sub continent you would not have made such a statement. I hope that what every aircraft they do get that the
26 Mrniji : Good news! Hopefully AI will come to their senses and order 777s Why come to their senses?? Do you think all the A343 customors were out of senses whe
27 Leskova : Ah... yet another "never ending story"... Some of us around here might remember that cute thread last year at the time when AI announced the A340/B737
28 Mrniji : not saying that AI/IC are costing money - I really don't know if they are profitable or not AI is a profitable PSU, IC not. Yes Frank, most of us hope
29 Post contains images ConcordeBoy : Do you think all the A343 customors were out of senses when they bought their planes? Sh'yeah... that's putting it lightly
30 Post contains images Mrniji : ConcordeBoy, you didn't disappoint me! I was waiting for you, and you took less of 25 min to reply
31 Dynkrisolo : Do you think all the A343 customors were out of senses when they bought their planes? The fact is very few new customers bought the 343 after the 772
32 Mrniji : If I'm not mistaken, there are only 10 more 343s on the order book, not including Air India's 10. No wonder, since the NG -5/600 is already on the ma
33 ConcordeBoy : EK, already a 772ER operator, decided to lease the A343..... ....but only because they were immediately available, in contrast to other RR-powered 772
34 Dynkrisolo : The 345 and 346 are meant for slightly different market. The 772LR and 773ER haven't made the 772ER obsolete.
35 Dynkrisolo : ConcordeBoy: I meant to say new customers ordered new 343s directly from Airbus. That's why I didn't include EK. There might be a few others like EK.
36 Post contains images ConcordeBoy : I know... just thought I'd add it. EK was just the culmination of the famous SQ-F.U.
37 Post contains images ConcordeBoy : Out of curiousity... ...the f^ck are you talking about?
38 ORDAgent : The only reason AI was asked to reevaluate the situation was to get B and A to fall over themselves with new discounts!
39 Indianguy : Boeing has never been known to be a good loser. Whenever it loses an order it picks up a whine about corruption and "bad idea" and such. Both IC and A
40 N79969 : Ah yes, one of my favorite recurrent threads. Roy is almost exactly right except he should substitute the word "Airbus" for "Boeing" in reply 39. Almo
41 Alpha 1 : Boeing has never been known to be a good loser. ROTFLMAO. And Airbus has, Roy? Riiight.
42 N79969 : Airbus took the cake for bad losers when it had Romano Prodi write a letter of complaint to PM Junichiro Koizumi after ANA (a private company) replace
43 Mandala499 : If everyone fights over about Airbus and Boeing, who's clean who's dirty, who's a sore looser etc... fine, get some Il96s and Tu204s then... Juuust ki
44 BOEING787 : The 777-300ER seems the best option in my opinion but looks like Airbus will get it's way ! Anyway AI plans to concentrate on expanding nonstops to Eu
45 Motorhussy : They need a combination of: A346, A345, A343, A333 & A332 or 773ER, 772LR, 772ER, 777 & 7E7. Their current order appears short-sighted to me. IMO MH
46 Chris78cpr : I think that AI colors would look great on the fusealage of the triple 7! Not to keen on the 343 tho! Flew on it and man did i not enjoy it! Chris
47 Roberta : Well hasnt this thread evolved into a mature bashing of the A340. The fact is very few new customers bought the 343 after the 772IGW/ER entered into s
48 Mrniji : Anyway AI plans to concentrate on expanding nonstops to Europe and the U.S. from India's metro's (BOM/DEL/CCU/MAA) Boeing787, is CCU really in the rac
49 Dynkrisolo : Comparing A340 orders post-1997 to 772ER orders pre-1997 is apples and oranges. And who's comparing to 772ER orders pre-1997? Why is post-1997 import
50 Roberta : How many new customers did the 772 get post 1997? [Edited 2004-06-03 21:13:08]
51 Greg : The 343 enjoys a great customer base. I'm not sure why all the negative comments. While not the best performer for climb performance, I haven't read a
52 Dynkrisolo : How many new customers did the 772 get post 1997? Actually, in 95, it was already known that Airbus was struggling with the 343X certification. Anyho
53 N79969 : Dynkrisolo, I realize that all airplanes take a performance penalty for high density altitude. How do the 343X and 772ER fare comparatively in hot and
54 Dynkrisolo : I have never seen any real number comparison, so I don't have the exact answer. It also depends on what engine you have on the 772ER. My impression is
55 ConcordeBoy : So, I'm not sure if my perceived 773ER hot-and-high disadvantage still holds I the disadvantage is not in the optimum performance, but engine out. It'
56 Indianguy : Well N79969: what was the airlines choice? And who is being "reconsidered" here? So who do u think could be applying the pressure? Not surprised you c
57 N79969 : Roy, Answer your own questions Roy. Be sure to use the reality (the one that normal people see and not your private one) that existed before the Frenc
58 Glideslope : Roy, Airbus and Boeing both engage in these tactics. You may not like it, however, it is reality. The world is not going to change. The politicians ar
59 Post contains images Indianguy : N79969: What chicanery? Use up all the words in your limited vocabulary, Even sit with a dictionary in hand as you show us your potential for abusing
60 Post contains images Vorticity : I'm always amused by short term governments trying to make long term investments. See the United States's long term military projects, especially coma
61 Post contains images Tubbyboeing : Hmmmmm....another A vs B battle. Tell you what, AI should just ditch both A and B and buy some good ol' Russian Ilyushins and Tupolevs
62 Mandala499 : This is beginning to be like that "Air India selects A340-300 and 737-800" thread all over again... :D Mandala499
63 BOEING787 : Mrniji : Sorry for my late reply - To answer your question - Yes they are interested in developing CCU and MAA to Europe and USA. MAA's Europe and USA
64 ConcordeBoy : N79969: What chicanery? ...something about offering a bid to assist a foreign government in developing non-aviation-related naval/nuclear technology,
65 B747-437B : I think its time that someone stepped in here and clarified what actually happened at the aircraft selection stage. When a straightforward technical a
66 Post contains images B747-437B : Yes they are interested in developing CCU... to Europe and USA. They are? Do they know? The only reason that CCU may get any expanded service from AI
67 Dynkrisolo : However, when economic considerations were applied, including both acquisition and operational costs, the savings earned from the Airbus 340-300 and
68 B747-437B : Dynkrisolo, you claim to be an engineer so you understand that you cannot compare apples with oranges. Every airline has its own set of specific data
69 JAL : Does this mean they will go for the 777 or 7E7 instead?
70 Mrniji : The [CCU] market has let AI down so many times in the past that it really doesn't deserve another chance for commercial reasons. Sean, how is BA doing
71 Mrniji : Does this mean they will go for the 777 or 7E7 instead? No, this does not mean anything yet... the 7E7 is out of consideration, and it seems unlikely
72 Roberta : The A330/A340 and 777's all have their own "sweet spots" were they out perform one another. This generally depending on pax carried, range, cargo, air
73 Spike : Air India will feel under enormous presure to have the 777 after the huge advertising campaign PK made about their's (and EK, Saudia to name a few). I
74 Dynkrisolo : B747-437B: Airliner economic analysis can be easily skewed. That's why Airbus can claim the 346 is 20% more efficient than 773ER while Boeing can clai
75 Vimanav : Sean, how is BA doing on LHR-CCU? I agree that CCU is not the top business location, but in consideration of the large diaspora, wouldn't a - let's sa
76 Leskova : Spike, I doubt that - mainly for the simple reason that somewhere around 98% of the travelling public doesn't have a clue as to what plane they're fly
77 N79969 : -437B, In reply 65, you seem to indicate there is a neat and carefully defined separation of powers between the people who conduct a technical analysi
78 B747-437B : you seem to indicate there is a neat and carefully defined separation of powers between the people who conduct a technical analysis and the bureaucrat
79 Jaysit : "As such, the technical analysis is simply windowdressing. No matter what it says, if the bureaucrat wants to go against its reccomendations then so b
80 Mrniji : If this doesn't say "PRIVATIZE AIR INDIA," then I don't know what does I know what it could do: give them much more autonomy to take decisions like th
81 Jaysit : "AI has something like a national task to fulfil, sth a private carrier would not necessart do." And pray tell, what is that national task to fulfil t
82 Indianguy : compared to your personal views of alleged conspiracies that you see in the depth of one of your delusions. Having interacted professionally with som
83 Post contains images Dynkrisolo : Having interacted professionally with some people in the airline certainly gives me more insight into this discussion than you hmmm. I thought N79969
84 B747-437B : Further to this issue, the ministry has now granted Air India permission to consider the potential acquisition of Airbus 340-500 and Boeing 777-200 LR
85 Roberta : hmm that'll favour the 777 what with common engine type and all. They should go for the A330 A345 if they choose airbus, then they can use all Trents.
86 Mrniji : Further to this issue, the ministry has now granted Air India permission to consider the potential acquisition of Airbus 340-500 and Boeing 777-200 LR
87 N79969 : "Further to this issue, the ministry has now granted Air India permission to consider the potential acquisition of Airbus 340-500 and Boeing 777-200 L
88 Indianguy : Further to this issue, the ministry has now granted Air India permission to consider the potential acquisition of Airbus 340-500 and Boeing 777-200 L
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Air India Strikes Back (at "vested Interests") posted Fri May 20 2005 07:43:08 by Atmx2000
Air-India To Continue Leasing Of A310-300 posted Fri Jan 21 2005 10:00:55 by MrNiji
Air India To Cancel A340 Proposal Order posted Sun Aug 29 2004 22:47:56 by Runway23
Air India Pilot Suspended For "wrong" Diversion posted Fri Jan 9 2004 05:27:38 by TKMCE
Gulf Air Plans To "necessarise" Fleet Requirements posted Tue Jul 3 2001 19:50:32 by GF-A330
Air India To Lease 4 Boeing Widebody Aircraft posted Mon Nov 13 2006 21:50:35 by B742
Air India To Wetlease 744's Or 772's! posted Sat May 13 2006 00:22:21 by RootsAir
Air India To Lease Upto Four 747-400 & 11 737-800 posted Wed Mar 1 2006 17:31:29 by LAXDESI
Air India To YVR? posted Sun Nov 27 2005 06:26:58 by Clickhappy
Air India 182 Case Re-opened posted Wed Nov 23 2005 03:34:59 by B741