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Why PIA Has More Destinations Than AI?  
User currently offlineUnited777 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1657 posts, RR: 0
Posted (10 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 4765 times:

I don't mean to start a PIA vs. AI topic here or a Pakistan vs India but I was just wondering why does PIA fly to more cities (international) than Air India.

I know it's not by much, PIA has more flights than Air India mainly to Europe but if there is a market for PIA to serve some of the cities, I'm sure there is for AI, right?



35 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineND From Belgium, joined Feb 2004, 280 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (10 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 4737 times:

From what I've seen so far, new longhaul aircraft purchases by Air India have been consistently delayed due to political reasons, preventing them from opening new routes.


ND - Hated By Many, Confronted By None
User currently offlineSpeedbird2025 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (10 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 4718 times:

United777..

I was wondering the very same thing why AI doesn't have at least more US destinations and more Destinations to Europe as well. Especially made me wonder since we just got PIA two times a week. I dropped off my cousin just yesterday at IAH as she was headed back to Mumbai for a few months and there were a TON of Indian people going the same sector as she (IAH-JFK-LHR-DEL-BOM) on AI. I sure wish we would get AI here in Houston. Maybe we will soon. Can't wait for China Airlines in a few weeks  Smile

--Nate


User currently offlineThomasphoto60 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 3999 posts, RR: 26
Reply 3, posted (10 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 4694 times:

Nate,

AI does have slots at IAH so now the ball is in AI's court. I suppose as other threads and an earlier post here have indicated that the lack of avaliable A/C has played a major part in their slower int'l expansion. One huge bugaboo for IAH and AI getting together however is that damned Bermuda 2 treaty. AI has indicated that any future IAH service will be routed through LHR and we in Houston knows what that means. A certain Dallas senator was very vocal in her opposition for any IAH/LHR nonstop for obvious reasons. So the saga of AI and IAH's pending relationship will continue for a little longer I am afraid to say.

Thomas



"Show me the Braniffs"
User currently offlineSpeedbird2025 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (10 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 4629 times:

Ah.... I See Thomas.
Let Go Get That Senator. LOL! J/K  Smile


User currently offlineND From Belgium, joined Feb 2004, 280 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (10 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 4612 times:

AI does have slots at IAH so now the ball is in AI's court. I suppose as other threads and an earlier post here have indicated that the lack of avaliable A/C has played a major part in their slower int'l expansion. One huge bugaboo for IAH and AI getting together however is that damned Bermuda 2 treaty. AI has indicated that any future IAH service will be routed through LHR and we in Houston knows what that means. A certain Dallas senator was very vocal in her opposition for any IAH/LHR nonstop for obvious reasons. So the saga of AI and IAH's pending relationship will continue for a little longer I am afraid to say.

Why can't AI just route through somewhere else like MAN or AB) (FRA / FRF / EDDF), Germany">FRA?



ND - Hated By Many, Confronted By None
User currently offlineThomasphoto60 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 3999 posts, RR: 26
Reply 6, posted (10 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 4579 times:

This a very good question, ND. One I have been asking myself and of others for some time, so far nothing. Perhaps it is because AI has such a large presence at LHR. Keep in mind that all of their N.Am (JFK/EWR, ORD and the upcoming LAX flight) operations are routed in this manner thus AI would probably rather stick with LHR a proven performer for the carrier than taking a gamble and going to the expense setting up another European gateway from anyone of the airports that you mentioned. That is just my take on the situation and I readily admit that I could be waaaay of base, so I'd be willing to read other's takes on this.

At this point I am elated at PK's new service and look foward to CI's ops later this month and if our Egyptian friend, Horus's statements are correct then we might have Egypt Air early in '05'. All in all while I would dearly love to have AI join our little family at IAH, I am not at all unhappy with IAH's circumtances at the moment.

Thomas



"Show me the Braniffs"
User currently offlineSpeedbird2025 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (10 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 4565 times:

Well Put Thomas. Couldn't Have Said It Better Myself.
U Gonna Be Out There Manana?? I Will Have To Skip Tomorrow, But Will Be Out There Sunday.

--Nathan


User currently offlineThomasphoto60 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 3999 posts, RR: 26
Reply 8, posted (10 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4549 times:

Hi Nate,
I won't be able to make it tommorrow though I am keeping my fingers crossed for Sunday.

Thomas



"Show me the Braniffs"
User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (10 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 4513 times:

AI does have slots at IAH so now the ball is in AI's court.

AI absolutely does not have slots at IAH. The airport is not even slot constrained so I have no clue what you mean by that.

Furthermore, as I have posted innumerable times on this forum, Houston is NOT a designated gateway under the existing India-US bilateral. The bilateral, as modified by the MOC in 1996, allows Air India to serve New York, Chicago and either Los Angeles OR San Francisco on its own metal - with a maximum of three other destinations to be served via codeshare.

There will most probably be a petition made for extra-bilateral rights to SFO early next year which will likely be opposed by Northwest because of its long-standing dispute regarding Amsterdam-India codeshares with KLM. As a result, a DOT ruling will have to be made on the issue, and in all likelihood they will kick the bilateral back for a new round of talks and ideally a modified MOC again. However, until that happens there is absolutely no possibility of AI serving anywhere other than the current gateways.

One huge bugaboo for IAH and AI getting together however is that damned Bermuda 2 treaty.

On a purely hypothetical basis, even if Air India were granted rights to Houston, why on earth would they be subject to Bermuda II - a treaty between the United States and the United Kingdom?

The India-US bilateral (which predates Bermuda II by almost 30 years) as well as Air India's general operating license (which also predates Bermuda II by decades) both grant AI the rights to operate "from India via points in Asia, Africa, Europe, U.K., Ireland, Canada.... and beyond.... or to such points as may be mutually agreed upon at a later date."

If AI were granted Houston as a US gateway, they would absolutely be permitted to route their flights though Heathrow. However, it is Houston that is not designated as the approved gateway.

AI has indicated that any future IAH service will be routed through LHR

Nobody at AI has EVER indicated that there was any future IAH service let alone through LHR.

Perhaps it is because AI has such a large presence at LHR. Keep in mind that all of their N.Am (JFK/EWR, ORD and the upcoming LAX flight) operations are routed in this manner

Newark is served via Paris. Chicago is served via Frankfurt. Los Angeles will be served via Frankfurt. Please get your facts straight.


User currently offlineThomasphoto60 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 3999 posts, RR: 26
Reply 10, posted (10 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 4497 times:

Well B747-437B,

I stand corrected.

As I stated in my post "I readily admit that I could be way of base" So your hostile attitude is not warranted. Indeed using the word 'slot' was incorrect, rather I should have said, landing rights. As for the comments regarding IAH and AI's landing rights, well I am basing this on reports from both the Houston Chronicle and CNBC, circa 2000. If these 2 sources are incorrect then so be it. I'll endeavor to post a link or in some way back up what was quoted from the above media outlets in the coming days. As for the EWR, ORD and LAX flights, after re-checking the AI web site I see that I made an error, again I stand corrected.

Thomas



"Show me the Braniffs"
User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (10 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4472 times:

"There will most probably be a petition made for extra-bilateral rights to SFO early next year which will likely be opposed by Northwest because of its long-standing dispute regarding Amsterdam-India codeshares with KLM."

Whats NW griping about?


User currently offlineUnited777 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1657 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (10 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4455 times:

WTH. Gee you guys for answering my question.  Yeah sure Once again some of you forget about the topic.  Smile

User currently offlineMrniji From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (10 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4399 times:

Furthermore, as I have posted innumerable times on this forum, Houston is NOT a designated gateway under the existing India-US bilateral. The bilateral, as modified by the MOC in 1996, allows Air India to serve New York, Chicago and either Los Angeles OR San Francisco on its own metal - with a maximum of three other destinations to be served via codeshare.

Do JFK and EWR count as one (NYC) destination??

WTH. Gee you guys for answering my question. Once again some of you forget about the topic.

Do you have the number of international destinations PK and AI serve?

First, consider that there is something like IC in India, which also state-owned, 'reduces' AI's international gateway numbers

Then, something we should also keep in mind is the frequency. Instead of international desinations we could also ask for international flights. Using this 'theoretical considerations, numbers look different. Then, cities in the Gulf and Southeast Asia have to be served from multiple cities in India, which 'reduces' the number of international destinations there. Hence, as said, count the number of international flights in order to compare, it is a little more reliable.

Of course, as said, AI just lacks equipment. Let's see how things change when these a/c finally enter the fleet



User currently offlineDIJKKIJK From France, joined Jul 2003, 1811 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (10 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 4364 times:

Mrniji,
"AI just lacks equipment."

Let's do a fleet comparison here. PIA's LONGHAUL fleet comprises of

8X A300B4, 10x A310-300, 2x 747-200, 2x 747-200 SCD, 7X 737-300, 6X 747-300 and 2X 777-200ER. That makes 37 aircraft right now (excl the 777s which are to be delivered)

AI's fleet (entirely longhaul) consists of
9X 747-400, 2X 747-300, 4X 747-200, 18X A310-300. That makes 33 airplanes.
So PIA doesn't have a considerably larger number of aircraft compared to Air India, and if you consider that their 737-300s don't do many international routes, PIA actually has lesser longhaul aircraft than AI.



Never argue with idiots. They will bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience.
User currently offlineMrniji From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (10 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 4298 times:

DIJKKIJK,

accepted. Then we should, as I have posted, look at the strategy.
We can see that AI serves most of its destinations in a bigger frequency and from multiple India cities (esp Gulf and SEAsia). Probably, we should count the number of international flights instead the number of cities


User currently offlineAF022 From France, joined Dec 2003, 2162 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (10 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 4246 times:

I would say because PK is less efficient than AI. Inefficient state-owned companies LOVE to have a route map with hundreds of lines, but efficient carriers operate with many frequencies.

AI has 23 weekly frequencies from the US/Canada, from 4 points
PK has 11 weekly frequencies from the US/Canada, from 4 points

PK spreads itself too thin.


User currently offlineMrniji From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (10 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 4185 times:

AF022, do you really think that a carrier with more destinations but less frequencies is less efficient? I am not sure, because:

- PIA can catch more traffic from more destinations (and eventually use 5th pax freedom).

And if the pax don't mind... I would measure this efficiency with the load-factor. A carrier with higher load factor is more efficient, regardless how many frequencies exist... but please criticize me if you think this is far fetched  Smile


User currently offlineVimanav From India, joined Jul 2003, 1516 posts, RR: 14
Reply 18, posted (10 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 4141 times:

I too am of the opinion that its a fleet related issue. If AI had the airplane numbers I am sure that they would have operated to lot more cities than they currently do. In case of Pakistan, lets not forget that the total number of Pakistanis in the UK far exceed the total number of Indians besides of course having strong concentrations in cities such as MAN. Moreover, being a national carrier and Pakistanis abroad having a strong voice (a la the Gujaratis who just managed a non stop AMD-LON service) have managed to convince their Government to operate direct services to these cities. Again, I was quite surprised to see the number of Pakistanis in Scandinavia, hence their operations there also come as no surprise.

Another fact is that India's aviation industry is way too regulated and stifled. How else can one explain that for a country of one billion we have less than two hundred fixed wing commercial aircraft above 20tons MTOW operating with carriers you can count on fingers of Hrithik Roshan's right hand?

The bright side is that things are indeed looking up. The current situation reminds me of the of Doordarshan in the late seventies upto the mid eighties: one channel (max two), one hindi movie per week, one regional lingo film per week, one Chitrahaar, one 'Hum Log' and loads of 'Krishi Darshan' to bore you to death. Today the variety of channels and programs that we have is not only huge but world class. I strongly anticipate a similar scenario in the aviation/airline industry in India as well with a slew of quality carriers managed by some of the finest brains in the industry. AND THAT'S THE DAY... EK's going to sweat under its dishdasha. Smile/happy/getting dizzy

rgds//Vimanav



Sarfaroshi kii tamannaa ab hamaare dil mein hai, Dekhnaa hai zor kitnaa baazu-e-qaatil mein hai
User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (10 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 4136 times:

AI's fleet (entirely longhaul) consists of 9X 747-400, 2X 747-300, 4X 747-200, 18X A310-300

Actually, its currently 3x 742 (EFU has been AOG since Jan 2003) and 16x A310-300 (EVI should be parked awaiting return to lessor and EVH is either already or soon going into C-check prior to return).


User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (10 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 4111 times:

Once again some of you forget about the topic.

To get back to the original topic, I am surprised that so many posters here have not come up with the most obvious reason, namely that PIA's market share of the international traffic to/from Pakistan is significantly higher than AI's market share of international traffic to/from India.

The market for international traffic to/from India was approximately 7 times the size of the market to/from Pakistan (source: DGCA - India and Statistics Division - Govt of Pakistan) in 2002. Air India provided approximately 18% of the total market capacity to/from India and PIA provided approximately 65% of the total capacity to/from Pakistan during the same period.

Simply put, PIA is able to serve a number of marginal markets simply because no other airlines serve Pakistan in direct competition on most routes. The market for international traffic to/from Pakistan has also shrunk significantly over the last few years (in comparison to India which is seeing almost 15-20% annual growth) while PIA's capacity has largely stayed flat, meaning that their proportional share of total capacity and marketshare automatically increases.

In layman's terms, PIA can support low frequency flights to Houston or Oslo or Athens simply because there are minimal real alternatives in those markets to traveling with them. British Airways serves India with 18 weekly frequencies but only 3 for Pakistan (and that too only recently reintroduced). Air France, KLM, Delta, Northwest, Alitalia, Singapore Airlines, Japan Airlines, Korean Air, Austrian, etc... don't even fly to Pakistan. Even airlines that do serve the market do so in dribs and drabs (4x 1-stop by LX, 2x by MH, etc...) compared to their presences in India. To use an analogy, "in the land of the blind the one eyed will be king". As long as the Pakistani market for air transport is largely dominated by ethnic VFR, it is inevitable that PIA will continue to enjoy its dominance and consequently a thin-spread route network.



User currently offlineCloud4000 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 641 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (10 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 4094 times:

Yes, why are people comparing fleet size? Instead People should be comparing the physical size and the number of cities between the two countries. You can tell right away that Air India's fleet is completely inadequate for its needs.

Pakistan has three main international gateways-- Karachi, Lahore and Islamabad. Peshawar is negligible.

India on the other hand has at least two-- Delhi and Mumbai. With significant traffic at Chennai, Bangalore, Kochi, Kozhiode, Trivandrum, Hyderabad, and Calcutta.

Air India's fleet is spread through out the country. In England it should be matching PIA at Manchester, Birmingham and Glasgow. Those cities contain a large Indian population as well yet there is no service to them.



Boston, USA
User currently offlineMrniji From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (10 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 4056 times:

I read somewhere (I forgot the source, I am sorry) that KLM is considering to start Pakistan soon (maybe some new strategy in compliance with AF). Can anyone confirm?

User currently offlineSolnabo From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 854 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (10 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 4045 times:

I just watch a pic. with a "brand new PIA 313ET"! Toulouse doesn´t make any 310 these days, ore do they???
The a/c looked crispy new though, but I have my doubts...
Anyone knows more about this PIA 313ET?

Mike//SE  Big thumbs up



Airbus SAS - Love them both
User currently offlineSolnabo From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 854 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (10 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 4032 times:

More info of PIA 313:
Picture at planepicture.net, a/c at Marseille, A310-325ET, F-OGYV.
Cheers

Micke//SE



Airbus SAS - Love them both
25 AF022 : load factor & yield must be noted. you can have high load factors with garbage fares and the route will be a bloodbath. lots of airlines to KHI suffer
26 Cloud4000 : Is that really a new A310 for PIA? I didn't they had any on order. Or is it one of the refurbished A310s from Air Jamaica or Aeroflot?
27 Lfutia : Do you think AI would do good by going to AMS and starting new destinations via AMS when they get new 'craft and slots permit?
28 Post contains images Mrniji : load factor & yield must be noted. you can have high load factors with garbage fares and the route will be a bloodbath. lots of airlines to KHI suffer
29 Vimanav : With regard to yield from Pakistan, we must bear in mind again the major traffic type which is VFR. The average Pakistani family is two adults and thr
30 Airmale : DIJKKIJK PK have retired one all pax 742, ex-CP Air plane that they had recieved in 1985 along with three others in exchnage for their four DC-10-30's
31 Airmale : B747-437B with the exception of NWA, Delta, Korean and Austrian, all of the other airlines you have listed used to serve Karachi, and PIA was serving
32 Post contains images B747-437B : Wow Airmale. That has to be a new record for the longest single sentence post on airliners.net!
33 Post contains images Airmale : Posted in a single breath Other new destinations that PIA added during the 90's were Baku, Ashkabad, Tashkent, Almaty in Central Asia former four were
34 Horus : Egypt Air 732, A300 When Egyptair terminated their services 2 months ago they were operating flights with A320s.
35 Airmale : What I'm trying to say is that with the exception of a few, all of PIA's destinations have been part of their network from the 70's and before and PIA
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