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DC9/MD80 Lack Of Success In UK  
User currently offlineTxiki1uk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 2909 times:

It has occurred to me that very few, if any, airlines in the UK have operated the DC9 or even the MD80 series or aircraft. What is the reason for this spectacular failiure to sell this plane. I expect there have been more operators of the DC10 than the baby brother.

Explain please.

14 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineDeltaMD11 From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 1701 posts, RR: 34
Reply 1, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 2886 times:

The search feature is quite lovely:

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1576072/



Too often we ... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. - John Fitzgerald Kennedy
User currently offlineCapital146 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2003, 2125 posts, RR: 43
Reply 2, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2854 times:

DeltaMD11, I think we can give Txiki1uk the benefit of the doubt as part of the question is specific to UK operators whereas the topic you have highlighted was a more general discussion on European operators.

I can only think of the following UK operators who have ever operated DC9/MD80's:

British Midland (now bmi) used DC9-10's and DC9-30's.
Airtours: MD83's
British Island Airways: MD83's
Paramount: MD83's

None are operated by UK operators today.

A very short list indeed. DC9/MD80 sales just never caught on in the UK, much like the Boeing 727, which I think only ever has had Dan-Air and Sabre operate them (and they were all second hand examples).



Like a fine wine, one gets better with age.
User currently offlineUlfinator From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 317 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2851 times:

Why is it that when someone asks a question or mentions something that has been discussed before does the first reply have that mentions that the search might be a good option have to come off as making the poster feel as though he is a total idiot and the replier is god. Good grief get over yourselves and be a little nicer!

User currently offlineMD80Nut From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 979 posts, RR: 8
Reply 4, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2848 times:

DeltaMD11,
He's talking about the UK, not Europe!

To my knowledge, British Midland was the only airline in the UK to operate the DC-9, I can't think of any that have operated the MD80. As to why, I have no idea, but McD. Douglas airplanes have not sold much in the UK. Other than British Midland with the DC-9 and British Caledonian (later BA) and Laker with the DC-10, I can't think of any other Douglas jets being bought by UK airlines.

cheers, Ralph




Fly Douglas Jets DC-8 / DC-9 / DC-10 / MD80 / MD11 / MD90 / 717
User currently offlineTxiki1uk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2844 times:

MD11
With all due respect, it isn't the answer to my question. You happen to know about this thread 'cause you posted to it Putting MD80 and UK does not come up with it in the search function. It's not like it's a NW DC9 topic or anything. Try and be a bit less condacending.

Anyway, it addresses does some of the reasons why they are no longer operated in Europe, in particular the older aircraft, but my question was why did they have no success in selling new aircraft to UK operators, not European and in particular the MD80. In the past there was a lot of competition between MD, Boeing and Airbus for the type of a/c that the MD80 competed with (B737/A320). I was just wondering why McDonnell Douglas only managed to deliver less than ten new MD80s to UK operators (Ships 49658/49823/49951/49398/49400/49949)?



User currently offlineJc2354 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 589 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2811 times:

I don't know about the MD80, but I would think, in the UK, the DC9 couldn't compete with the 1-11.




If not now, then when?
User currently offlineIslandHopperCO From Micronesia, joined Dec 2003, 225 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2794 times:

Yeah, the BAC-1-11 was homegrown and a great airplane to boot. I imagine the British gov't had tariffs on imported aircraft to protect their own industry. Therefore it made economic sense to order the 1-11.

User currently offlineDl021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11447 posts, RR: 75
Reply 8, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2780 times:

I agree. WIth both points...md11 get over yourself, you do not make yourself look smart by belittling other.

The UK was really the only place that tridents and 1-11 really caught on, and this kind of took the business that the DC-9 and 727 got elsewhere. As a matter of fact, outside of BA using 737's, i remember seeing alot of British jets in the 70's in BA, Dan-Air, and other local liveries at both LHR and LGW, up at Prestwick too.



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineDeltaMD11 From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 1701 posts, RR: 34
Reply 9, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2699 times:

Dl021--call off your dogs. I was simply trying to point out that there has been some inklings of a discussion on the topic (yes, I realize that it's more centered around Europe as a whole but the UK is a part of Europe). It's not like I called him an idiot for asking a very valid question. Don't expect me to sit here and pepper my answers up with kiss-ass rhetoric along the lines of: "Oh well, here we have sort of touched on this topic recently, don't know if it's the answer to your exact question or not, but you may want to check here." I was in a rush, so quick and to the point. Sorry if you can't stomach that.

To the others and specifically txiki,
Thank you for at least responding to my post with some level of civility. I do so apologize for coming on strongly, it was not my intention to seem like I was trying to belittle your question.



Too often we ... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. - John Fitzgerald Kennedy
User currently offlineWorldoftui From Sweden, joined Aug 2007, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2677 times:

Yeah, the BAC-1-11 was homegrown and a great airplane to boot. I imagine the British gov't had tariffs on imported aircraft to protect their own industry. Therefore it made economic sense to order the 1-11.

They did! In the 70's Britannia were put under enormous political and financial pressure to order the 1-11 over the 737, even though the designers of the 1-11 admitted that they could not stretch the plane to the airlines requirements.

Capital146 - You have a good memory! Those BIA MD83's looked good!

Mark


User currently offlineUlfinator From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 317 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2658 times:

Quick and to the point could have been.

Maybe this would help link

or

I think this has been discussed before link

as opposed to:

The search feature is quite lovely: link

or

Search first dumbass! link


User currently offlineTxiki1uk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 2636 times:

I'm cool. Thanks for the apology Bryan.

Well, it doesn't explain what happened in the eighties and nineties when the 1-11 wasn't being made and the only UK product was the 146, when all the UK airlines were buying either Boeing or Airbus. What we McDonnell Douglas up to? Were their sales team stuck in the traffic on the M25 or did the company make a conscious effort not to bother selling in the UK?

Andy


User currently offlineCapital146 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2003, 2125 posts, RR: 43
Reply 13, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 2605 times:

UK charter airlines preferred either the 1-11 for reasons mentioned previously or the 737-200 as the latter offered better range than the DC9-30 which was important when wanting to fly non-stop to the popular holiday destinations such as Cyprus, Greece and the Canary Islands.

As most of the airlines using these types had been very happy with them, when the time came to think about replacements during the mid-late 1980's they tended to stick to the same manufacturers and ordered either the 146 or 737-300.

Then along came the A320 which was more advanced and efficient than the MD80.

As for the UK scheduled airlines, they generally either flew British aircraft or Boeing's so, like the charter airlines, bought the 146 or 733 rather than say, the MD87, which was from a manufacturer they didn't already have a relationship with. Once again, any remaining hopes of breaking the UK market with the MD80 were over once the A320 arrived.

It may be that if Douglas had gained more orders from UK airlines with the DC-6/7 and DC-8 then more orders for the DC-9 and MD80 may have come their way too.




Like a fine wine, one gets better with age.
User currently offlineWorldoftui From Sweden, joined Aug 2007, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 2608 times:

I guess that by the early eighties and nineties, the thought of buying an aircraft just because it was built in your own country was a bit outdated.

McD stuck in traffic LOL.

They were always going to have a tough job IMHO. As we can see, very few companies had a heritage of using DC/McD aircraft. Plus with the benefits of buying "family aircraft" such as the 737-300/400/500 , 757/767 and A320/321 aircrafts, they were never able to get a foothold.

May also have been just for the simple fact that they were not the right aircraft for the airlines that were buying. Too small? Too heavy? Lacking in airfield performance? Who knows.

I do remember reading that there was an MD-8x operator who had decided to swap for Boeing products because the long wheelbase of the MD8x caused some operational problems due to the large turning circle. Given that 3 of the 4 UK operators were charter carriers, and the state of some of the smaller Greek airports that they would have been used to, this may have been a factor too.

Mark


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