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What Is The Matter With Boeing?  
User currently offlineTasha From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 6111 times:

What is the matter with Boeing?? For over thirty years they have produced the largest, heaviest, and fastest (subsonic) airliner, the 747. Now all over a sudden they are going to concede this to Airbus and launch the 7e7 series.  Sad

Sometimes you also have to factor PRIDE. Airbus is going to have a huge advantage in advertising: This is what a Puny 744 looks like next to our A380!  Wow!

Is there no stretch left in the 747? I remember reading that years ago, in the mid 1970's, the U.S. Air Force seriously stretched their C141 aircraft by adding large sections in front and behind the wing.

Sometimes pride is a factor as well. Could a 747 not be stretched to compete with, and perhaps eclispe the A380? I think so... sometimes it comes down to that little five letter word: PRIDE

Tasha Big grin

44 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRoberta From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 6077 times:

Ohh dude, the main objective of a business is to be profitable. Once you're safe finacially that is when you can start going for pride.

User currently offlineKL911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5142 posts, RR: 15
Reply 2, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 6069 times:

Tasha..........

The 380 is PRIDE............... ( for us Europeans)  Laugh out loud


User currently offlineSEAPete From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 67 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 6046 times:

Nothing is wrong with Boeing. I believe that they have a really good sense of what is going on in the market these days and building another super jumbo doesn't make sense. They learned from the mistakes of the DC-10 vs L1011 battle where there wasn't enough market to support two suppliers in the same market space. The 744 is the only thing between the A330/7e7/777 market and the A380 market.

Having a profitable company is defignately a source of pride!

Cheers!

Pete



SEA No other place like it
User currently offlineVorticity From United States of America, joined May 2004, 337 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 6025 times:

Most types of PRIDE don't cost millions and millions of dollars in Research and Development. Throwing that kinda money at pride is just plain stupid. Boeing has a responcibility to their share holders and their employees, to make intelligent financial and long term planning decisions.

Nothing wrong with Boeing



Thermodynamics and english units don't mix...
User currently offlineGoboeing From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 2698 posts, RR: 15
Reply 5, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 5993 times:

What is the matter with you?

They'll be much more proud of a plane that sells and pleases passengers than they would have of a plane that crowds terminals and just doesn't make much sense anymore.

Nick


User currently offlineKL911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5142 posts, RR: 15
Reply 6, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 5990 times:

'''Boeing has a responcibility to their share holders and their employees, to make intelligent financial and long term planning decisions.'''

So does Airbus......... Think of something better..


User currently offlineRoberta From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 5983 times:

To be fair, i think both the 7E7 and the A380 make financial sense.

User currently offlineBoeingBus From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1596 posts, RR: 18
Reply 8, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5912 times:

For ONCE, let the Europeans build an aircraft that is revolutionary. In the past, other than the Concord, everything they have done has been mediocre... good planes but not anything to rave about! At the same time, Boeing has revolutionized the industry with the 747, 727, 737, 767 and 777 in its debut.

So heck, the Europeans / Airbus need the spotlight at some point. I am willing to give them this shot and honor. Doesn’t bother me one bit and shouldn’t with anyone.

For ONCE, let them spend their mighty Euros on airport mitigation and planning that is required to build a aircraft of this magnitude. We all know Boeing had to with the 747.

I am 100% certain the Boeing is not going to concede the super jumbo aircraft, because it the ever growing population is not going to stop anytime soon.

So lets all whish Airbus well as we are going to learn from their costly mistakes and errors. We all know that Airbus did for the last 30 years when Boeing was the aircraft trend setter.

In the meantime, Boeing is creating a true airplane platform for the future based on E.



Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
User currently offlineMidnightMike From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 2892 posts, RR: 14
Reply 9, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5907 times:

Tasha

Dude, that is your personal opinion, which is good, if the airlines really want another update to the 747, the offer was put on the table by Boeing. Boeing put out a press release that they would be willing to stretch the 747 and use some of the new technolgy that was developed in the 7E7 program. If you go to the Boeing 7E7 website, you can see what they are planning to do with the 747, once again, if the airlines want it. Boeing, nor Airbus would build an airplane without the backing of the airlines willing to purchase it. Just watch what is going on with the 7E7, they are gaining orders first.



NO URLS in signature
User currently offlineVorticity From United States of America, joined May 2004, 337 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 5871 times:

So does Airbus......... Think of something better..

I was in no way implying that Airbus's decision to launch the A380 project was irresponcible or a poor decision. It was a bit of gamble of a project, and the way it looks now, it may pay off.

My comments were directed at creating a stretch 747 simply for a matter of pride in having a large aircraft. Boeing has smart people working the numbers, as do Airbus. At the time 747X was being explored, they spoke with customers, and it didn't appear there was enough demand at the time to make it profitable.

All I was saying is that Boeing won't through out millions and millions of dollars for pride. They'll make a judgement based on profitability, and long term profitability. Not every choice a company makes is right, but that will be the primary consideration, and it's an intelligent one.



Thermodynamics and english units don't mix...
User currently offlineUALongHaul From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 227 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 5750 times:

Hmm. Boeing had the largest for over 30 years, and Airbus still has not built the first of the "new" largest. It also takes the funding of major governments to build this new plane, while Boeing was able to finance through the private sector. Interesting..............

Maybe boeing realizes that not every major airport wants to rebuild gates so a larger plane can fit in it?


User currently offlineRj777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1854 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 5741 times:

I think that the 7E7 is something that, like the 777, Boeing will be very proud of.

User currently offlineJBirdAV8r From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 4491 posts, RR: 21
Reply 13, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 5677 times:

For ONCE, let the Europeans build an aircraft that is revolutionary.

How is the A380 revolutionary? How is it a radical departure from previous thinking?



I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
User currently offlineRalgha From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 1614 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 5648 times:

It's not, but Airbus would like us to think it is. Woo, I'm gonna get flamed for that one!  Big thumbs up


09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
User currently offlineBoingGoingGone From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 5598 times:

We'll see how proud people are of the 380 when it fails FAA certification for evacuation. Airbus has been told by the FAA that they need to find a "slower" way to get people off the second deck. Using the proposed system, people will approach 50 MPH, yes, 50 MPH on their way down. The 747 has the same issue, but there are fewer people involved allowing a tighter sleeve which slows the pax.

I guess if the crash doesn't kill you, the evac will. Say what you will. This is a big problem for Airbus right now.


User currently offlineKEESJE From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 5540 times:

For ONCE, let the Europeans build an aircraft that is revolutionary

Nonsense.

I remember first entering the cockpit of an A320 in the late eighties.

Me and a Boeing mechanic felt like entering battle star Galactica.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Peter Fagerström



And it was at that time, as was the fly by wire, side sticks, materials etc ...

Compare it to the 767, 737-400 and 747-400 at that time ...


User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 5498 times:

Boeing has made mistakes and will make more, likewise Airbus. Hopefully, both these industrial behemoths will make the enough good decisions to survive in a highly cyclical, complicated, and volatile marketplace. The petty A v. B squabbles get tiresome at times, this industry requires at least two vibrant manufacturers for obvious reasons...Industrial monopolies are rarely a good idea. Even the former Soviet Union had multiple design bureaus.

User currently offlineStefandotde From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 5438 times:

Goboeing: "What is the matter with you?

They'll be much more proud of a plane that sells and pleases passengers than they would have of a plane that crowds terminals and just doesn't make much sense anymore.

Nick"

Come on, Nick - it sounds you are jealous of A success.
Don't be too angry, also for B the world is getting better - they have plans for building modern 7E7.

B had a unique plane, the 747 - when an airline wanted to buy one of them, they had to take some smaller too, otherwise the delivery of the 747 would (strange, isn't it) take a very long time.
Now when the 380 is coming, B has to be more innovative and I think they are on a good way with the 7E7.


User currently offlineSolnabo From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 852 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 5402 times:

Boeings 747 was a make or break for them in the 60´s!
I think its great that the monopoly of the Jumbo is broken soon, the 35 y/o "Queen of the skies" is about to be european, btw US dont have royals  Big grin
Lets see how it goes with A388! I hope for a hit-machine in many years to come.

Michael//SE  Big thumbs up
"Airbus, discovering the next 100 years of flight"



Airbus SAS - Love them both
User currently offlineGreasespot From Canada, joined Apr 2004, 3084 posts, RR: 20
Reply 20, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 5355 times:

Even if you were to jump from the upper deck door with out a slide when the human body will not hit the ground at 50mph. It is impossible. The laws of physics will not allow it. So when you factor in the drag that the slide induces the passengers will come shooting off it at much slower speed. Mind you they will still be a human bowling ball but not at 50 mph.

GS



Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
User currently offlineGman94 From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 1239 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 5351 times:

For ONCE, let the Europeans build an aircraft that is revolutionary.

How is the A380 revolutionary? How is it a radical departure from previous thinking?


There hasn't been a revolutionary aircraft built since Concorde. Also if want revolutionary European aircraft try, the Comet, the Harrier jump jet and Concorde to name a few.



British Airways - The Way To Fly
User currently offlineMd80fanatic From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 2660 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 5246 times:

The Titanic was borne of PRIDE as well. Please keep this in mind.

User currently offlineSabenapilot From Belgium, joined Feb 2000, 2714 posts, RR: 46
Reply 23, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 5196 times:

Boeingbus,

For ONCE, let the Europeans build an aircraft that is revolutionary


Are you one of those radical Boeing fans living by their mantra: 'I will never set foot on an Airbus plane' or what?

You'd really have to open your eyes, man!

Have a look at this:

The flightdeck of a A319, a 1980s (!) design which still looks like a spaceship everytime I set foot in it:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Peter Fagerström



And compare it to this competing Boeing B737-500 from the early 1990s, which looks like flying a connie with jet engines!


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Krzysztof Skowronski [epwa_spotters]



Well I guess you are right.. If you have to start from the latter to get up to date again, it truly is a revolution for you!


User currently offlineBoeingBus From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1596 posts, RR: 18
Reply 24, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 5178 times:

Yes, it's going to be long tube with wings so it’s not technically revolutionary... But when it comes down to economics and volume of passengers I sure think it is!!!

Does anyone have a grasp of how HUGE this aircraft really is??? How about the level of investment required to fly this beast from acquisition, maintenance, insurance, fuel, catering, attendants, and the support staff at airports to just have a single flight. This is all new to the airliners! Only the airliners with the best business plans will continue with the A380. Those for those who fail, better have a contingency plan or government bail out ready.

Now anyone question why BA has not adopted the A380? I believe it's all about the level of risk associated that has never been seen.



Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
25 Leelaw : I say ditto to BoeingBus's analysis! But the "enthusiast" in me can't wait until the big bird takes wing!
26 AKelley728 : Remember the old saying that PRIDE comes before the fall? Airline manufacturers are not in it anymore for pride. They are in it to make profits. Both
27 BoeingBus : Sabenapilot, We all know that Airbus for the last 30 years had to practically give away aircraft in order to sell those flashy buttons and screens tha
28 Juanchie : I think it is extremely smart to let Airbus take this market. I mean really, how many markets in the world could sustain an A380 service routinely. I
29 Post contains images Sabenapilot : Airbus for the last 30 years had to practically give away aircraft in order to sell those flashy buttons and screens that you boast... Come on, do you
30 Cessna172RG : "I believe that they have a really good sense of what is going on in the market these days" Opinionated statements don't bother me. But... They have a
31 RT514 : We all know that Airbus for the last 30 years had to practically give away aircraft An empty hypothesis at best. I'll go with the flow, though... OK,
32 BoeingBus : Sabena Pilot please, it’s Ok... you have your opinions and I will have mine... You can continue to believe that Airbus never received a subsidy from
33 Iluv2pilot : Cessna you state: 767-400...a niche aircraft May be true, but fills the need and made Boeing money. 777-300ER...another possible niche aircraft No way
34 Roberta : Airbus for the last 30 years had to practically give away aircraft in order to sell those flashy buttons and screens that you boast... Boeing currentl
35 BoeingBus : That's so true Roberta! I never doubted Airbus of whether they built good planes or not. Some go with Airbus regardless of price. But how many more or
36 Roberta : the 727 had no competitor nor did the 747. the 737NG drew level with the A320. Performance wise they are probably the 2 most similarly matched planes
37 JBirdAV8r : A380 is a niche product, and Boeing would waste VAST amounts of resources on developing a head-to-head competitor. Two manufacturers would overcrowd t
38 BoingGoingGone : Even if you were to jump from the upper deck door with out a slide when the human body will not hit the ground at 50mph. It is impossible. The laws of
39 AvObserver : Tasha, enough folks here have jumped on you but you made the whole A vs. B thing a race to see who should have the biggest airplane. Not even Airbus (
40 Post contains images Tasha : AvObserver, I spoke of pride. Pride of achievement; Pride of producing an icon; Pride that comes when awe struck passengers board or view your aircraf
41 Post contains images Md80fanatic : The pride of making a plane that doesn't fit on existing taxiways. Don't call me a Boeing freak either because I definately have an issue with them as
42 LVZXV : Tasha: I wouldn't worry. It's not as if the A380 is about to clinch a beauty prize from the 747. Time will tell if the A380 gains the worldwide recogn
43 ScottB : As others have said, it made little sense for Boeing to jump into the VLA market. They had the only product (the 744-400) in the space, so developing
44 Alitalia744 : One again a few people have managed to turn this into a ridiculous A vs. B war. Get over it people. Boeing builds fantastic planes, as does Airbus. Th
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