Kaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 11956 posts, RR: 37 Posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 5376 times:
Aer Lingus has started talks with plane
makers Airbus and Boeing to buy as many
as 14 planes to replace and expand its
Chief executive Willie Walsh told the
Reuters news agency that the airline
was looking to order at least 11 and as
many as 14 planes.
This refers to EI's requirement for long haul aircraft, to replace its current fleet. Other reports refer to this being a bout between the A330 and 7E7. Neither the 340 (unsurprising) or 777 (surprising) is mentioned. Previously, the 777 had been mentioned as a possible interim aircraft. Also surprising is the lead in time; EI has mentioned 2008 as a possible service entry date. A lot later than expected, I think.
So, hot money must be on Airbus, given that their short haul fleet is going to be an all Airbus affair soon. The fact that such a large number of aircraft is requirement is testament to increased confidence, but more importantly to the expected change in the US/EU bilateral, which - if it goes through - will give EI access to many more US destinations. Indeed, it's hoped that a deal can be signed later this month, when President Bush visits Ireland. This will, hopefully, put the Shannon stop policy to rest finally.
For Boeing, hope is not completely lost. They have a very good new aircraft. Since EI doesn't want its new aircraft until 2008, this must give Boeing an advantage; i.e if they needed the aircraft right now (and they will need to lease more aircraft in to meet new t/a demand), the 332 would be an obvious winner, BUT if they're waiting until 2008, the 332 will soon be eclipsed by something new and better. Does EI want to be foregoing the chance to fly the newest type, with all the economic advantages this offers? Don't forget, Boeing wants to sell around 200 7E7s this year; it's not going to let EI slip through its fingers without a fight, particularly given EI's growth ambitions.
Also, the 333s - while fine aircraft, are limited; range considerations make it impossible to equip them with PTVs (not that EI has been in any hurry to do this on its 332s either). If EI needs aircraft imminently, Boeing - if it really wanted a deal - could provide 777s as a 333 replacement. If it can show itself as the best partner and facilitator of EI's growth, then perhaps it can make a case.
Iowa744fan From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 928 posts, RR: 2 Reply 2, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 5252 times:
This could be an interesting one. Where in the US does EI operate? I know Boston, New York, and Chicago. Do they fly to Washington? I know that they used to fly to LA, as I have seen photos, but I was not sure if they still did or not.
Also, is this order looking to add on to the fleet of 330s or to replace them and expand at the same time?
Also, the thing about their shorthaul fleet being all Airbus does not really mean as much. We have seen quite often where airlines have been in the process of switching to one brand for shorthaul only to switch to another one when a deal was struck for larger longhaul aircraft. South African had ordered a bunch of 738s and are now gettings the 320 family as part of their longhaul 343/346 deal. Also, IIRC, Air Nippon was to be almost all 320s to replace their 735s, but are now going back to the 73Gs. So, unless you have a shorthaul fleet of like 100 or so aircraft, they can be changed quite easily.
MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 31118 posts, RR: 73 Reply 4, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 5199 times:
Where in the US does EI operate?
Boston/Logan, Baltimore/Washington, Los Angeles/International, New York City/Kennedy, and Chicago/O'Hare. BOS and JFK have independent non-stops to both Dublin and Shannon. O'Hare and Los Angeles are routed from Shannon via Dublin, while Baltimore is from Dublin via Shannon.
They would like to open up Miami/International and San Francsico/International pending changes in the US-Ireland air treaty.
Roberta From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 5, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 5188 times:
Neither the 340 (unsurprising) or 777 (surprising) is mentioned
how could the 777 which has no commonality to existing aircraft be suprising and a plane which has complete engine crew and airframe commonality with the fleet be unsuprising . Was it something to do with runway length at DUB.
range considerations make it impossible to equip them with PTVs
EIRules From Ireland, joined Aug 2007, 641 posts, RR: 10 Reply 6, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 5180 times:
For me it has to be Boeing, though this may not be what most people think. Obviously Aer Lingus are looking to expand into US, with MIA and SFO the two most obvious locations. Beyond that a number of Asian destinations have been mentioned from Hong Kong to Singapore to Dubai. I reckon that Hong Kong is most likely given the presence of Cathay Pacific so they can give more connections. The A330s they have could fly this route but if they were to go for Singapore then they would have to go for an aircraft with a greater range and I believe that Boeing may have the upper hand.
Would it also be cynical for me to say that George Bush would be more likely to push through the new open skies deal if there was something more in it for the US economy, such as $2b for Boeing!!!
Next Flights: EI DUB-LHR A320, BA LHR-SFO B744, UA SFO-LAS A320, BA LAS-LHR B744, EI LHR-DUB A320
DfwRevolution From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 7, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 5134 times:
how could the 777 which has no commonality to existing aircraft be suprising and a plane which has complete engine crew and airframe commonality with the fleet be unsuprising
That's exactly what I was thinking... I was suprised the A340 was not mentioned, and unsuprised when the 777 was not mentioned...
Would it also be cynical for me to say that George Bush would be more likely to push through the new open skies deal if there was something more in it for the US economy, such as $2b for Boeing!!!
Seeing that George W. Bush has virtually no influence or power in this decision, or the fact that the U.S. has never traded Boeing purchases for landing rights, I'd say the chances of that happening are zilch.
Bobs89irocz From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 632 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4986 times:
Im with Yyz717 on this, i dont see why they need to "replace" anything.....there current A330's are just fine......but what the hell do i know? I dont see them going for any Boeing products however, i see them staying with Airbus on this one.
DfwRevolution From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 10, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4952 times:
Im with Yyz717 on this, i dont see why they need to "replace" anything.....there current A330's are just fine......but what the hell do i know?
The oldest A330s are 1994 builds, but they do form the backbone of thier longhaul fleet. In 2008, the fleet's oldest aircraft will be 10-15 years old depending on delivery. If Aer Lingus is already in the market for a nrew fleet, fine by me.
But, how often does an airline replace an aircraft with a new-build of the same type? You don't see too many 767 opperators opting for new-build 767s for fleet replacement. The 7E7 and 777 combo is powerful package that, for now, outperforms the A330/A340 package.
Hamlet69 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 2657 posts, RR: 59 Reply 11, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4926 times:
"how could the 777 which has no commonality to existing aircraft be suprising and a plane which has complete engine crew and airframe commonality with the fleet be unsuprising . Was it something to do with runway length at DUB."
That's exactly what it is. Though of course the A340 could fly DUB-West Coast flights, reportedly it is so weight limited that it is economically unfeasible.
The fact that the 777 not being mentioned is so surprising is because it had been rumored for about half a year now that the Boeing proposal centered on replacing the entire A330 fleet using a combination of 777/7E7. The 777-200ER would be delivered first, replacing the remaining A330-300s, while the 7E7-8/-9s would be delivered later, replacing the A330-200. Now it looks like EI will standardize on one of two types, either 7E7-8 (or -9) or A330-200. My money is on the A330.
Mas777 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 1999, 2916 posts, RR: 6 Reply 12, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 4887 times:
I could have sworn that I read in the local Malaysian press that Aer Lingus was considering flying to Kuala Lumpur via Bahrain. I could be mistaken though but there is hot gossip in Malaysia that another major European carrier is due to commence flights to Malaysia as soon as this Northern Winter schedule... guess the term 'major' may exclude Aer Lingus though...
On another note - Air France has already begun code-sharing with KLM on KL807 into Kuala Lumpur so it is unlikely that this 'major European carrier' is AF - although with the Malaysian press - anything is possible I have often noticed...
Snnams From Ireland, joined Apr 2004, 288 posts, RR: 1 Reply 13, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 4868 times:
Personally I think 2008 has been mentioned by EI as a scare tactic directed at Airbus.. i.e "we can wait for the 7e7.. so make us an offer for a few 330's that we cant refuse"
In reality, Aer Lingus cannot wait: it needs more aircraft if the operation is to grow as we have heard. There is simply not enough capacity to operate any extra flights at present. More US flights, Dubai and Asia are all hot favorites, so they need planes soon.
Just a few weeks ago we were told that EI was going for 777/7E7.. no we hear talks are with both manufacturers. I really don't think any of us should read too much into this. They are simply going through the motions to hammer out the most financially advantageous deal.
I really woudl not like to bet at this stage. They seem to be playing both manufacturers off on each other. The 330 offers commonality, but the 777 can fly further off DUB's runway. Either way, it will be a compromise.
If DUB's new runway gets a quick go ahead though, things could change, but there is little chance of this happening anytime soon.
EIDW From Ireland, joined Nov 2003, 44 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 4866 times:
The issue with the 340 is the restriction imposed by the lack of length at Dublin airport. Compared to that required for a fully loaded 340 then you would need to pop down to Shannon to fill the tanks before a long-haul. Not the most economic mode of operation!
EI also has rights to Newark but stopped flying there (along with Baltimore which was reinstated a while later) after 9/11.
At present the US-Ireland bilateral means that for each flight from Dublin to/from the US there must be a flight through Shannon. Hence the shuttle service from DUB-SNN on a fully loaded EI 330 whereby everyone deplanes for security and immigration before reboarding for the US, wasting time and fuel all round. The restriction imposed by the US to compensate for this rule (as it also covers US carriers into Ireland) is the limitation on EI to fly to the above mentioned US airports. I believe that LA and Baltimore are outside the scope of this agreement and were added afterwards.
On an personal note, today I flew from DUB-EWR direct on CO, the equipment was a 764-ER, nice aircraft! At the same time as our arrival in EWR the SNN-EWR flight came in, which was a 752.
DIA From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3273 posts, RR: 30 Reply 15, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 4609 times:
Okay, chop this up. . .
From justplanes.com: "Aer Lingus confirmed it had started talks with Airbus and Boeing aiming at the replacement of its fleet of Airbus A330s with a possible order for 14 new aircraft. Under consideration are Airbuses A330 and Boeings B7E7. Aer Lingus wants to order at least 11 aircraft with 14 as a possible number. The Irish carrier expects to make a decision within the next few months but does not need the new aircraft till 2008/2009."
Why would Aer Lingus replace their A330s with possibly more A330s? Aren't their current A330s pretty darn new anyhow?
Was this just a bad report?
Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
Snnams From Ireland, joined Apr 2004, 288 posts, RR: 1 Reply 16, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 4549 times:
Simply put, Aer Lingus need more A330's (or just more long haul aircraft). They also really need to replace the A330-300's simply because they cant fly all that far, and a PTV system will limit their range even more. Aer Lingus thus sees the opportunity of replacing a few 330-300's with new longer range craft at good prices. Rememeber, it's still a good time to buy new planes as the market aint all that hot. May as well do it now than wait a few years.
Yes, EI are rumoured to be starting a KUL service. SIN is also rumoured though. No new developments yet on this. I know EI aint exactly BA or AF, but it's not really that small, and if it comes to recognition of it's name, it surely "punches above it's weight" if you know what I mean. I think "major" as referred to here may just mean "flag carrier" as opposed to a relatively unheard of carrier.
Kaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 11956 posts, RR: 37 Reply 17, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 4445 times:
I agree EI needs aircraft pretty soon, but they can lease aircraft and replace them when the 7E7 comes along. Although there's obviously a lot to be said for the argument that EI is simply trying to push Airbus into making them a better deal and Airbus has good reason to think EI won't go for Boeings.
That said, they're going for a huge investment in aircraft which will be with them for many, many years. Do they want to go for aircraft which will be overtaken by another type pretty soon. The 7E7 will allow considerable economic advantages over the 7E7 and the 777 has considerable range advantages over the 333. Also, consider that if EI goes Airbus, what will its growth potential be, as far as acft size. If they don't want A340s, the -300 is as big as they can get. The 777 has that growth potential.
The big fly in the ointment, as ever, is the Irish govt making soundings about the SNN stopover policy, which is EI's biggest obstacle. If this is phased out, EI has great growth potential; even if it's just reduced to 2:1 (rather than the current 1:1), EI can grow its US operations. Unfortunately, right now, they're talking about four years. No can do. Why should EI be at a disadvantage, compared to virtually every other European carrier!
Snnams From Ireland, joined Apr 2004, 288 posts, RR: 1 Reply 18, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 4358 times:
But there is talk of a "mini deal" even by Bush's visit on 26th, that should see this sorted. I don't think we will be waiting four years to see this rubbish finally consigned to the trash can. (well, hope not anyway!)
Gearup From Canada, joined Dec 2000, 578 posts, RR: 1 Reply 19, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 4292 times:
The A330 has been an excellent aircraft for Aer Lingus and it has allowed them to expand their route network within the US notwithstanding the Shannon stopover nonsense. This is something it could never do in years of operating Boeing 707/747 on transatlantic routes. The proven track record of the 330 will play a big role in any decision they make. Don't forget the 7E7 is a 'paper' airplane, the latest in a fleet of paper planes from Boeing lately. While it is closer to flight than all those 747 variants, sonic cruisers etc. It is not a proven performer whereas the A330 is!
CEO Willie Walsh seems quite enthusiastic about the 7E7, despite it still being a 'paper' airplane. He also said it's no problem operating Boeings on long-haul routes, even though Aer Lingus uses Airbuses for short-haul.
BoeingBus From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1588 posts, RR: 18 Reply 21, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 4139 times:
I find it irritating when Airbus centric folks refer the 7E7 as just a mere "paper airplane", and lets wait and see... this is only to discredit Boeing... All I have to say is whether you like it or not the 7E7 is GOING to happen! Just as much as the A380 is going to fly - this will happen.
Let me correct you... Boeing has officialy launched the 7E7 and it's not a paper airplane... it's currently being designed by the latest CATIA virtual software models. Boeing WILL design, build and test every aspect of the 7E7 airplane and its manufacturing processes digitally before production begins.
Snnams From Ireland, joined Apr 2004, 288 posts, RR: 1 Reply 22, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 4117 times:
No one said it wasnt going to happen, but you must concede that it is still a paper airplane: construction hasnt begun, so the term is accurate. Gearup is correct in saying that EI has a great track record with the 330: this will of course influence their thinking. There is of course no experience yet with the 7E7.
Again, i'm quite sure the 7E7 will happen, and that it's going to be great! Whether EI will go for it though, of course remains to be seen. It must be said though, with a 50 aircraft launch order, it's off to a great start!
BoeingBus From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1588 posts, RR: 18 Reply 23, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 4085 times:
Gearup and other antiBoeing folks on a.net are misplacing or confusing the 7E7 project with prior Being concepts, such as the 747x and the Sonic Cruiser. We all know that is incorrect as the 7E7 is far beyond that.
YES, the A380 has begun construction but it's not complete. So with your definition, the A380 is also somewhat a paper airplane too.
Also, with the EI, they are going for the best price here and performance... the experience they had with Airbus may help but I am sure it comes down to price and capability of the aircraft... the 7E7-8 8500 mile range, I am sure is quite attractive to EI future routes... so we shall wait and see...
RyanairA320 From Ireland, joined Dec 2003, 96 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 4001 times:
I believe that the 7E7 and the 777 are very strong competitors and may just be seen in an Aer Lingus livery in the new future.
EI may have gone all airbus with their short-haul lower fares formula but I don't think they want to rely on the one aircraft manufacturer. Thats not health.
I think EI have grown very much accustom to the twinjet era and I think may prefare 7E7/777 over a A340 combination. The 777LR would give EI an incredable range with a sustainable capacity for extremely long-haul asian and australian routes.The 7E7 fits well for the EI demand on most of their US destinations.
The runway length at Dublin is not an issue if the deliveries are not expected until 2008 because by then Aer Rianta(Airport operators) will have completed the new parrallel runway with an extend length for larger more modern aircraft.
So for economics,size and desirability I reckon the 7E7/777 combination wins. All Aer Lingus need now is the right price.
Ryanair 'The Low Fares Airline' and now also 'The On-time Airline'
25 Gearup: BoeingBus, Ahem! I am not anti-Boeing at all my friend. I love Boeing aircraft simply because they are flying machines. Same reason I like airbus. Hey
26 CO737800: Why do they want to get rid of the A330, they cant be that old
27 UTA_flyingHIGH: With regards to all that has been said... Living in Dublin, I seem to hear crazy rumors on EI's new destinations every day. The fact is that we have t
28 Hamlet69: UTA, "As for Dublin operations, runway 10/28 handles SQ's 74F as well as the occasional pax 747/744 (see what happened when LHR was closed). DL flies
29 Snnams: Boeingbus, I dont disagree with a thing you say there! I think it will be a very close battle between 7E7 and A330/340 on this one!
30 Airbus3801: Aer Lingus has no market with the 777. The A330 will work just as nicely and possibly better. Aer Lingus also has PTV's installed in their A330's than
31 Kaitak: Airbus 3801, Aer Lingus has PTVs in ONE out of its three A330-200s (EI-DAA) and NONE on its 333s. They should have fitted them to the other two 332s,
32 Snnams: Airbus3801, Can we please not let this turn into an A. V. B bicker? the 330 has served Aerlingus well, but there may now be a business case for the 77
33 N79969: I also agree with yyz717. Why do such new Airbus airplanes need to be replaced? I would have thought that they have plenty of life in them yet. Defini
34 Snnams: N79969, The reasons for replacing the 330's have been explained elsewhere, so i'll not go into them again save to say that EI need more planes. The re
35 N79969: Snnams, I do not doubt that Irish travelers would prefer non-stop flights to Asia. But is there really sufficient demand to economically justify such
36 Kaitak: There is certainly sufficient demand at the moment, but once you have a route up and running, once you're marketing it and increasing Ireland's visibi
37 N79969: "There is certainly sufficient demand at the moment, but once you have a route up and running, once you're marketing it and increasing Ireland's visib
38 RayChuang: If there is any airline that could convince Airbus to build a Higher Gross Weight (HGW) version of the A330-300, it's EI. That could allow EI to fly f
39 CarbHeatIN: Surely they know about Ireland (or any other place with lots of people on expense accounts looking for a ride to Asia.) Hi N79969, In the last decade
40 Mlsrar: Hence the shuttle service from DUB-SNN on a fully loaded EI 330 whereby everyone deplanes for security and immigration before reboarding for the US, w
41 Kaitak: It is minimal; A320/321 crews don't fly the 330s. It does, of course, make things very easy when A330 FOs gain command on A320s or A320 captains move
42 Mlsrar: If the current crew-scheduling provisions do not accomodate the overlapping duty-rosters of short and long haul flight crews, the cockpit commonality
43 Roberta: If there is any airline that could convince Airbus to build a Higher Gross Weight (HGW) version of the A330-300, it's EI. There already is one...its c
44 N79969: CarbHeatIn, Thanks for the reply. It has prompted another question though. The low cost, low fare, high-load factor model is proven for the short haul
45 Kaitak: I agree with what you say about being a long haul low cost carrier; it just doesn't work. It has been a concern to me that EI hasn't raised the standa
46 Snnams: Kaitak, Words of wisdom as always! I would dispute N79969's assertion that low cost, long haul hs not been proven. I think EI have doen that to an ext
47 N79969: "I would dispute N79969's assertion that low cost, long haul hs not been proven. I think EI have doen that to an extent." Where has EI or any other ca
48 Tracks: EI flies to LAX 10 - 11 hours. They have proven the lowcost model on that route. They'd launch SFO tomorrow if they could and would no doubt make that
49 Snnams: N79969, EK have been on about starting a DUB service for some time now.. so EI are not the only ones. Also, I really dont mean to sound crass here, bu
50 N79969: Snnams, No offense taken and I certainly do not intend to rain on anyone's parade by asking my questions or challenging opinions. I am not trying to d
51 Dstc47: Spot on N79969 If EI think they have the service product to compete with most Asian airlines they need to get out more. As the Asians improve service
52 Kaitak: Good morning N79969, Let me take your points one by one, although not necessarily in the right order! 1. Sure, some of the world's great hubs lie betw
53 Snnams: N79969, I did not mean to suggest that you were raining on anyone's parade and I hope you saw the effort i made in my post to show that I was not bein
54 WhiteHatter: Rather I am trying to grasp what is pushing EI to expand into Asia. I do not see clear and solid economic rationale from what has been posted so far.
55 N79969: Snnams, Thanks for the kind words. Kaitak, Thank you also for your thoughtful and measured replies. If I understand you correctly, you believe that EI
56 Snnams: N79969, The Boeing order rationale mentioned might not be so far fetched if a certain set of circumstances are to occur. If the EU and US cannot concl
57 Kaitak: Good point, SNNAMS. I had forgotten about that possibility, caught up in optimism that a deal might be done. Of course, there is still ten days left b
58 Legacyins: Ha, the "Celtic Tiger" is nothing but a Celtic cub now. When Ireland wanted to entice various International companies to set up shop in Eire, they gav
59 N79969: Snnams, With regards to a Boeing order improving Ireland's negotiating position, I very seriously doubt it. While it may seem that a Boeing order may
60 Snnams: Legacyins, What a load of Bull$hit. Sorry, but you are talking total nonsense. The Irish economy was the only one in western europe to continue expans
61 Legacyins: What hostility from our friend in Ireland. I am quite familiar with the IDA and the way Ireland lured in Multi national companies to give them tax bre
62 Snnams: Sir, With respect, the hostility came from you: I quote "ha.. the celtic tiger is nothing but a celtic cub now" it's almost like you would be happy to
63 Tracks: Legacyins, I have to agree with Snnams. You seem to have a substantial knowledge deficit in relation to the Irish economy. While it is true that some
64 Kaitak: Let's leave the hostility aside and get back to the core issue. Aer Lingus needs planes. Okay, the whole US/EU bilateral issue is going a bit more slo