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Plane Crash Was 'avoidable'  
User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12115 posts, RR: 18
Posted (10 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 6647 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

A Business Jet which crashed on Christmas Eve 2002 was avoidable. Although the plane crashed due to engine failure the pilots should have been able do avoid crashing into a passing car on the Motorway at the end on the runway. The plane was running a cargo flight for Royal Mail in Denmark when the plane's engines dies on take off.

Source http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/3792649.stm

19 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineGoingboeing From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4875 posts, RR: 16
Reply 1, posted (10 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 6404 times:

the pilots should have been able do avoid crashing

Take a look at the US NTSB aviation accident database...the vast majority of accidents of commercial and private aircraft all pretty much say that the pilot "should have" been able to avoid crashing. That's why the primary cause is "pilot error".


User currently offlineKlm-md11 From Greece, joined Mar 2002, 471 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (10 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 6129 times:

Aren´t all crashes "avoidable"...








klm-md11



GELUK IS GELUL MET EEN K
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 971 posts, RR: 51
Reply 3, posted (10 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 6097 times:

Yeah.. TWA 800 was pilot error  Insane

User currently offlineElcapi1980 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 220 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (10 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 6083 times:

Yeah.. TWA 800 was pilot error !!!

Now it is call Human Error.....




I love you barranquilla!!!!!
User currently offlineAeroyu From Hong Kong, joined Oct 2000, 178 posts, RR: 10
Reply 5, posted (10 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 6014 times:

Why TWA800 is human error? Is it just a short circuit of a fuel pump in centre wing tank cause the explosion?


Kai Tai - I missed you so much
User currently offlineDiesel1 From UK - Wales, joined Mar 2001, 1637 posts, RR: 11
Reply 6, posted (10 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 5966 times:

Jason / 777ER

I didn't recognise this accident the way you described it, I don't know where you got your information from... so for the sake of accuracy :

# It wasn't a 'Business Jet', it was a turbo prop, Swearingen SA227-AC Metroliner III (OY BPH)

# It wasn't a 'motorway', the BBC described it as a main thoroughfare - pictures show a single carriageway road

# It wasn't 'running a cargo flight', it was a positioning flight to Denmark

# It wasn't operating for the 'Royal Mail in Denmark', it was operating under contract for the Royal Mail in the UK in Scotland

# The 'plane's engines' didn't 'dies on takeoff', the left engine suffered a bird strike, the right engine was feathered.

The following link has full details from the AAIB investigation.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_avsafety/documents/page/dft_avsafety_029044.hcsp






I don't like signatures...
User currently offlineFreshlove1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (10 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 5780 times:

You still believe that the fuel tank exploded on TWA 800 huh. It is a coverup by the government. The Navy accidently shot it down while they were training out there. I don't believe the fuel tank theory at all and neither should anyone else.

User currently offlineAeroyu From Hong Kong, joined Oct 2000, 178 posts, RR: 10
Reply 8, posted (10 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 5646 times:

Freshlove1,
I agree with you. Although the government still kept the secret but while surfing the internet, I can find hundreds of sites state it was shot down by missiles.
Very bad news.



Kai Tai - I missed you so much
User currently offlineIsitsafenow From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 23
Reply 9, posted (10 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 5483 times:

FRESHLOVE1
Concerning Flight 800.....Did anyone put together that 1996 was an election year in the USA and the flight 800 incident happened about two weeks before the Democratic National Convention...and at that time, we had a Democrat in the White House?
Did anyone else figure that out?.........hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm..
safe



If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
User currently offlineVorticity From United States of America, joined May 2004, 337 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (10 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 5379 times:

Do you really think you can get an entire Navy crew to keep quiet and cover up this big conspiracy? No offense to any navy folks, but some of the armed services personal aren't the brightest crayon in the box. I can't imagine how the US govt. has the competence to cover that up, they can't seem to cover anything up, no matter how badly they don't want it to come out.


Thermodynamics and english units don't mix...
User currently offlineMandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6849 posts, RR: 75
Reply 11, posted (10 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 4959 times:

TWA800 was old wiring + fuel tank + electromagnetic inteference affecting the old wiring... so... this is my alternative to the missile theory... Big grin

The electromagnetic interference was caused by increased "electromagnetic chatter & radar emissions" from the nearby military exercise...

Someone tried to convince me that SR111 is of a similar cause...

What the heck, what do I know... maybe someone accidentally fired an SM-2R and managed to cover it all up even over the missile inventories... Hell, who knows...

:D

Back to the topic... How to avoid all crashes? Don't even board the aircraft! Everything can be avoided with hindsight!

Mandala499



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineStarrion From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1126 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (10 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4309 times:

Mandala499:

There wasn't even a navy ship in the area. Only a sub hunter aircraft and some nat'l guard choppers. 25 year old wiring and an overheated fuel tank caused an old aircraft to crash.

As the Abu Ghirab story shows, someone is going to have a concience attack about stuff like this. Secrets have a very short shelf life in a free society.



Knowledge Replaces Fear
User currently offlineRegis From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (10 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4177 times:

Do you really think you can get an entire Navy crew to keep quiet and cover up this big conspiracy?

In addition to the navy crew, you'd have to shut up all the dozens of NTSB, FAA and FBI agents who investigated the crash as well. Hundreads of people spread across mutiple government agencies... I am sorry, but not even the US government would be able to pull out a cover up of this magnitude and for so long.


User currently offlineFlyingColours From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2315 posts, RR: 10
Reply 14, posted (10 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4148 times:

Some could say that TWA 800 was human error - it shouldn't have sat there baking waiting for a bag which went missing. But there is nothing we can do about that now other than try to prevent any more atrocities like that from occuring again.

Back to this accident

The pilots made a mistake at a critical point, we are all human. It is easy to do the wrong thing (as in feather the wrong engine) when at a critical phase such as T/O or Landing.

Avoidable accidents,

BD at EMA - Shut down wrong engine,
Tenerife PA/KLM- Missed the turn off and other aircraft departed without clearance
Dan Air at Tenerife - ATC Flew it into a mountain and nearly flew a BY and BA into the same mountain
Collision over Yuogoslavia - ATC Error
AA1420 - Landed too fast below min RVR in severe T-Storm
KT28M at MAN - Turned into the wind so the fire burnt the fuselage

The point here is that most accidents are avoidable but we are humans and are not able to take in absolutley everything that is happening around us, we might be in a situation where we like the Dan Air 727 are relying completly upon ATCs instructions when we may be alert but depend upon someone else to make the right descision.
All I'm saying is that no matter how avoidable accidents are they will still continue to happen.

Phil
FlyingColours

PS - I guess I lost my point and started waffling again (as usual) but hopefully you'll catch my drift.



Lifes a train racing towards you, now you can either run away or grab a chair & a beer and watch it come - Phil
User currently offlineUA777222 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3348 posts, RR: 11
Reply 15, posted (10 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3636 times:

Everyone thought that TWA800 was terrorist and this and that. My neighbor who is in the Air Force said that there was a lot of talk about it being a cover up. The evidence is not enough to explain that it was a fuel issue or a missile but you sure as hell can't say that it was a fuel issue. The big hole that they couldn't find....................

What about that JAL(??) 744 that went off path and was shot down? Who the hell cares if it was avoidable or not, when the #1 engine has an 8lb bird fly into it and you can't figure out why are you going to sit and say "oh, shit, was that avoidable?" or are you going to do your best to keep the a/c in control and try to save both your ass and those on the ground?



UA777222



"It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark."
User currently offlineJumboBumbo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (10 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2755 times:

UA777222-

It was Korean Airlines flight 007 that strayed into Soviet airspace and was intercepted by (I believe) at least one Mig-29.


User currently offlineJfkviaphx From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 194 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (10 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2735 times:

Why don't we ask a TWA mechanic that day at JFK. I heard they had problems with the center fuel tank not taking fuel. It's a common practice to override the breaker and/or valve to allow it to flow in.

My 2 cents


User currently offlineUA777222 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3348 posts, RR: 11
Reply 18, posted (10 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2533 times:

Does this mean that any 747 with the same issue will blow up shortly after take-off? If so then Boeing should be issuing more than a little warning about the a/c it's self. Or should we issue a warning to all a/c for missiles being attracted to them??

UA777222



"It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark."
User currently offlineTungd From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 103 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (10 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2410 times:

Freshlove1, please verify your statement regarding TWA 800. Unless you can back it up with solid, confirmed evidence, you shouldn't make general statements like that and expect to be taken seriously.

Aeroyu, as a former member of the U.S. news media, I can attest that almost everything you read or hear is spun by the person writing and/or delivering the information, whether it's intentional or not; it's just human nature. There's a lot of people on the internet (and in the world) who think they know more than anybody else, including the experts who devote their lives to re-constructing major aircraft disasters.


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