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UA In NYC  
User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4593 posts, RR: 7
Posted (10 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2690 times:

In a previous thread, the discussion turned to UA's declining presence in the NYC market (EWR, LGA, JFK). One of the participants stated:


By pursuing a strategy of O&D UA has cut down on the associated costs of providing transfers/connections, not to mention crew accomodation in NYC. I'm not sure I would categorise such a strategy as a "major problem".


Seems to me that with the reduction of UA's capacity at EWR (LAX-EWR is now being flown with combo of 757 and A319!) and the limited number of cities served from JFK (LAX, SFO, IAD, AA), Japan">NRT, LHR) and LGA (DEN, IAD, ORD - not counting the USAirways codeshare), they do have at least somewhat of a problem in the NYC market.

Yes, a nearby hub at IAD is nice, but New Yorkers (I am a former New Yorker, EWR used to be my home airport) have come to expect that they can fly to most mid sized and large cities without having to make a connection.

What used to be UA's main competitor, AA, serves 23 cities from LGA (132 flights), 33 cities from JFK (92 flights) and a measly 8 cities from EWR  Smile (but a respectable 43 flights).

To me, the numbers tell a story of UA giving up (to some extent) on the NYC market.

Looking forward to reading everyone else's opinions!

27 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePROSA From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5644 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (10 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2633 times:

New York's importance as an O&D market has slipped a bit, given the region's sluggish economy, plus fear of flying is a huge issue in the area since 9/11.


"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
User currently offlineScott4AA From United States of America, joined Apr 2002, 321 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (10 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2609 times:

If I am not mistaken, AA has even taken over dominance (atleast in the number of flights) on the ORD-LGA route. Including MDW, I know that AA has more dailies to LGA.


American Airlines - We Know Why You Fly
User currently offlineAirlineFanatic From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 222 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (10 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2611 times:

PANYNJ website indicates 2003 Full Year traffic increased 3.1% to 83.6 million passengers carried out of JFK/LGA/EWR.

Of that United ranked 5th with 4.2 million which was far from 4th place JetBlue carrying 7.1 million (moved to 3rd place as of March 2004).

I don't think that NYs importance has slipped... it is still one of the most sought after markets in the world and the numbers above show it.

At hand, the question of UA... NY has been carved up and CO, AA, DL, B6 are taking the share of passengers out of NY


User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4593 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (10 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2587 times:


At hand, the question of UA... NY has been carved up and CO, AA, DL, B6 are taking the share of passengers out of NY

Dare I say it, is UA becoming a "secondary" carrier (for lack of a better term), on the order of a US, HP, NW?


User currently offlineSHUPirate1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3670 posts, RR: 16
Reply 5, posted (10 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2571 times:

I wouldn't exactly call US Airways a "secondary" carrier in the NYC-area market...in terms of flights, US Airways is the single largest carrier at LaGuardia (neither American or Delta is close in that respect), although US Airways has most of their flights out of LaGuardia on their Express carriers...


Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4593 posts, RR: 7
Reply 6, posted (10 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2562 times:


I wouldn't exactly call US Airways a "secondary" carrier in the NYC-area market


I would, despite the LGA presence, just look at the numbers:

http://www.panynj.gov/aviation/traffic/images/MATR_Dec2003_reg.PDF


User currently offlineQuickmover From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 2502 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (10 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 2539 times:

Is Continental still the largest carrier in the NYC area in terms of boardings?

User currently offlineCaptaink From Mexico, joined May 2001, 5109 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (10 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2446 times:

With EWR being a major hub for CO, I don't see that as being impossible. I don't think any of the other majors have a hub the size of CO's EWR in the tristate area.


There is something special about planes....
User currently offlineSHUPirate1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3670 posts, RR: 16
Reply 9, posted (10 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2436 times:

N62NA-Those numbers don't include the regional carriers...more than 2/3rds of US Airways' flights out of LGA are operated by either regional jets or turboprops...if I'm not mistaken, 1-5 are turboprop-specific gates, and 6-8 are regional jet-specific gates...as always, somebody please correct me on this...


Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4593 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (10 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2413 times:


Those numbers don't include the regional carriers

Yeah, that is interesting... They include American Eagle, but maybe because it's owned by AMR? Same with COEX (owned by Continental).

Anyway, how much could inclusion of those ERJs, B1900 and Dash-8s add to the total for US? Even if it was equal to the 3 million that US mainline carried, that would only get them up to 5th place on the list.


User currently offlineOrd From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 1389 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (10 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2386 times:

"To me, the numbers tell a story of UA giving up (to some extent) on the NYC market."

United was never big in the NY market, so there was really nothing to give up. That is why United announced the Dulles hub in 1986, so they could have a major operation on the East Coast.

As far as AA passing UA in NY, AA was always big in NY. Don't forget they were headquartered there until their move to the Dallas/Ft. Worth area in the late 1970s. AA has always had a large presence in NY.


User currently offlineSHUPirate1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3670 posts, RR: 16
Reply 12, posted (10 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2384 times:

But they don't include Eagle or COEX...if you look, sixth largest, one spot ahead of US Airways, happens to be none other than Continental ExpressJet...likewise, in the 12th spot, is American Eagle...the difference here is that AAE and COXJ both are one consolidated company, whereas US Airways has several different carriers serving the New York City area, namely Allegheny, Chautauqua, Colgan, Mesa, Piedmont, PSA, and Trans-States, plus the Mid-Atlantic Division...


Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4593 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (10 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2350 times:


United was never big in the NY market, so there was really nothing to give up.


I guess I'm showing my age here... I remember a time when UA was big in the NYC market, matching AA and TW flight for flight on the JFK-LAX/SFO routes and having nonstop flights from EWR and LGA to places like PIT, CLE and ORF, among lots of other secondary cities (a check of my 1976 OAG is probably in order at this point to verify my memory!).

Seems like since the early 90s, UA has been slowly losing market share in the NYC market, which is why they are now in the position they are in the NYC market.


User currently offlineJfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3626 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (10 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2314 times:

Yes, UAL was biggerin NYC at one point. Much bigger. They were building their own terminal at JFK up until 9/11.
I agree with the statement that UAL is starting to become a secondary carrier. TW and Pan Am went through this before they went under. It's like watching a person die--a slow withering away from the big strong company they were. Not to say that they will die, but I think it is safe to say that the old giant UAL is gone.
Most of their flights now begin and end at a hub. There is very little point to point flying. Europe and S. America also have much weaker and thinner networks. 9/11 has taken its toll on everyone, but UA took it real hard.

PJ


User currently offlineFA4UA From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 812 posts, RR: 20
Reply 15, posted (10 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2283 times:

I've been granted permission by the Senior VP of Onboard Service to copy and paste this correspondence from UA's intranet regarding this very problem:

Annonymous Flight Attendant Question: Why is United not expanding its service in the New York market? New York is the gateway to the world but not for United. We have the best base and are number 1 in everything, but yet we can't compete.

Corporate Communications Asnwer: United remains committed to the New York market, and we will continue to provide competitive fares and a full schedule of flights for our customers in the New York area. However, United in New York competes with many other airlines that have more of a presence in the area and have for a long time. It is extremely difficult to challenge these dominant carriers and it takes a very long time to get anywhere near profitable. We are in an environment in which we have a fixed size for the airline and that will be the case for some years to come. Thus, we need to deploy our aircraft to those markets that will generate the most revenue. This means a focus on our hubs. We fly to New York from all of our major hubs and strongest markets with a schedule that is best for our long-term competitiveness and profitability.


I think this sums it up pretty well

FA4UA



The debate continues... Starwood or Hyatt... which is better
User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4593 posts, RR: 7
Reply 16, posted (10 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2269 times:

FA4UA -- thanks much, just confirms my original thought when I started this post.

I truly hope UA can return to profitability and grow in the years to come.


User currently offlineFA4UA From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 812 posts, RR: 20
Reply 17, posted (10 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2254 times:

we'd be showing an operational profit if it weren't for the high fuel expenses!

I'm beginning to think UA should just go buy some land in Texas or Alaska and start drilling for oil. It might be cheaper! Wonder what the Bankruptcy judge would say to that proposal??

 Smile

FA4UA



The debate continues... Starwood or Hyatt... which is better
User currently offlineStevenUhl777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (10 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 2168 times:

FA4UA:

Thanks for the reply as well. While I highly doubt Judge Wedoff would approve an oil drilling venture, I'm sure he'd at least smile at the proposal.  Big grin

Price of oil seems to be coming down, at least it is for automobile consumers, hopefully the same holds true for Jet-A. And if it is, that's only good news for United. Add to that a blockbuster summer with minimal problems, and it will help bolster UA's ATSB decision in their favor. But, like you said in another post, I think their chances are 50/50, I'd say probably 60/40 at this point.

It doesn't surprise me one bit that UA has cut back NYC. They've done the same in MIA and SEA in recent years, and it makes business sense for them to focus on their core hubs and business. I'm glad to see UAL refocusing on international service, restoring and adding new service, and I think we'll continue to see more of it.

Any chance you're working #916 (SEA-IAD-Frankfurt) on 7/3?


User currently offlineOrd From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 1389 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (10 years 6 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 2081 times:

"I agree with the statement that UAL is starting to become a secondary carrier. TW and Pan Am went through this before they went under...
Most of their flights now begin and end at a hub. There is very little point to point flying. Europe and S. America also have much weaker and thinner networks. 9/11 has taken its toll on everyone, but UA took it real hard."

I completely disagree with this statement. Here's why:

First, how is United a secondary carrier? They are the 2nd largest airline in the world! And they would still be the largest if not for AA's purchase of TWA. Further, they have maintained all their hubs, and are still the only airline out of UA/AA/DL that is the #1 airline in all its hubs.

Second, United is not doing anything that TWA and Pan Am did. Those two airlines sold off crucial routes to stay alive (TWA all of LHR, Pan Am all of the Pacific and later LHR and the Atlantic). United has yet to do any of that.

Third, they have always had the majority of their flights go through their hubs. They gave up point to point in the early 1980s.

Europe is no weaker than beofre 9/11. All the major routes are still in place. South America has fewer cities but is stronger because the flights are routed through ORD and IAD instead of MIA.

Compare United to, say, Delta. Delta has withered away nearly all its Pacific routes, DFW hub, SLC hub and MCO mini-hub. I'd say they've been hurt even more.


User currently offlineHz747300 From Hong Kong, joined Mar 2004, 1710 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (10 years 6 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 2051 times:
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This is sad--I love UA. I have always been treated, well, like a customer. However, AA expanded network out of JFK makes it more appealing on paper. The problem is I have been treated rudely on more than one occasion by AA staff, but I was willing to switch especially with the non-stop PHX flights. Then my girlfriend and all the other passengers were treated like crap during a delay at BNA on their way back to NY, confirming my suspicions: AA has no customer service.


Keep on truckin'...
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16907 posts, RR: 51
Reply 21, posted (10 years 6 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 2011 times:

UAL is a West Coast Carrier, they dominate the West Coast.

AA, CO, DL are East Coast dominate, but relatively weak on the West Coast.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineCospn From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Oct 2001, 1653 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (10 years 6 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 1939 times:

FA4UA

I'm beginning to think UA should just go buy some land in Texas or Alaska and start drilling for oil. It might be cheaper! Wonder what the Bankruptcy judge would say to that proposal??

Good Idea.. Maybe in a safe area of Iraq  Big grin



User currently offlineStirling From Italy, joined Jun 2004, 3943 posts, RR: 21
Reply 23, posted (10 years 6 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 1913 times:

STT757-

You are so right! In the case of AA and DL. Didn't they gobble up airlines to have a better share of the West Coast market? First AirCal and then RenoAir, only to virtually dismantle the West Coast network they once coveted?

In the case of DL, they did a good job of maintaining the SLC hub, only recent economic realities forcing them to re-work SLC into an RJ hub. I think they kept SLC up to pre-merger or better levels of service, for what?, 15 years? Gotta be a record.

Question...something to think about.
Did WN displace PSA/USAir from the West.
Or
Did PSA/USAir abandon the West and WN filled the Void.



Delete this User
User currently offlineCoronado From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 1213 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (10 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 1863 times:
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Could UAL drop their JFK-NRT flight as they reduce their presence in the New York area. Reminds me of NWA dropping their ORD-NRT flight back a few years ago, as they cut back on 'focus' city flying into Chicago. Especially since UAL strategy in Asia seems to be less on maintaining building a NRT hub as opposed to looking for more point to point opportunties between their US hubs and points in Asia? Will we see UAL JFK-NRT last out the year?


The Original Coronado: First CV jet flights RG CV 990 July 1965; DL CV 880 July 1965; Spantax CV990 Feb 1973
25 StevenUhl777 : Coronado: Good question....I always wondered why UA doesn't have an IAD-NRT route, but ANA does, so maybe I just answered my own question. Guess it al
26 Jamake1 : Hey Everybody: Good topic tonight. So here is my two cents. Yes, at one time prior to September 11, United operated JFK-Rio/Sao Paulo, JFK-Caracas, pl
27 STT757 : UAL should concentrate on defending and expanding their hubs, trying to keep a foot in markets they never will dominate makes no sense. Move a JFK-LHR
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