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Westjet Vs Air Canada  
User currently offlineETStar From Canada, joined Jan 2004, 2103 posts, RR: 7
Posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3476 times:

As we all know Air Canada is suing Westjet for having spied on it using access that is limited to the airline's employees. However, one HR exec at Westjet stated in a court affidafit this week (or last week) that the said website was accessible by anyone out there that has a connection to the internet. Does anyone know where this site that allegedly show's AC's flight load factors is at? Also, are there other airlines that have such sites?

24 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineCaptaingomes From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 6413 posts, RR: 55
Reply 1, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3447 times:

Obviously the site is accessible by the internet, that's really nothing new. It is the password and use of information that is the basis of the case. I've seen the argument that Westjet could not have really benefited from the information anyways. But then, why would they be accessing it multiple times daily if it weren't so important to them? I have respect for Westjet, but this is inexcusable. However, I'll wait for the final court verdict with interest.


"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
User currently offlineETStar From Canada, joined Jan 2004, 2103 posts, RR: 7
Reply 2, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3432 times:

Gomes,
Naturally the site is accessible online, but according to the affidafit report on Financial Times (please no backlashes for reading FT - I definitely don't read the rest of the paper it comes in and don't base any arguments on that newspaper or any of its affiliates), the air canada site appeared to be accessible by anyone, even without passwords. I was also unhappy with the fact that the spying went on from Westjet's side, and it is obvious that the guy with the password was looking for business related information, rather than just be an enthusiast with nothing better to do (don't mean this in a bad way).


User currently offlineYVRtoYYZ From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 661 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3403 times:

While I have a great deal of respect for WestJet, I question the legitmacy of a statement in which one says that such knowledge is publically available; thereby implying that a user ID and password is not required. Surely AC has more sense and funds available to ensure security on their website. Also, one would have to know precisely where to go on the AC website as I am sure that very few of us outside the AC-ring would know how/where to access such information.

With that being said, I am keenly awaiting the results of the court decision and on that topic, who is presiding on this case. Would it be Judge Farley as well?

Finally, I think the topic-heading is a bit mis-leading, but that is irrelevent. Upon seeing it within the forum, I thought it was going to be another AC vs. WS topic; kinda like the continuous A vs B that occurs here. Nonetheless an interesting topic, especially since there is very little media coverage on this issue (which I am sure WS is pleased with).

-YVRtoYYZ


User currently offlineAirbus340313x From Canada, joined Oct 2003, 61 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3380 times:

The website is accessible by internet, but you have to use youre employee number, and your password to access the information. It is not anybody that can see the information it contains, but only active Air Canada employees, or retirees, etc...

User currently offlineRobsawatsky From Canada, joined Dec 2003, 597 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 3234 times:

I think you might be seeing some very clever legal maneouvering by Westjet. The statement about access from the internet is just a means to show that one step of the process of obtaining the data was completely public, even if it only gets someone to a login page. The point being that the site is not internal to AC and behind some secure firewall. The next step is showing employee/ex-employee/non-employee access restrictions and how these were enforced (by legal agreement).


User currently offlineSlawko From Canada, joined May 1999, 3799 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 3165 times:

http://travel.aircanada.ca

Go ahead and try getting in...



"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
User currently offlineCaptainGomes From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 6413 posts, RR: 55
Reply 7, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 3096 times:

Slawko, since when do you work for Air Canada? Or, is your airline doing the same as Westjet?  Big grin Juuuuuust kidding!


"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
User currently offlineSlawko From Canada, joined May 1999, 3799 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3049 times:

Actually Westjet is doing the same to my airline, but I guess our computer system is a little more advanced and harder to get into so they have reverted to sending staff on shift to come and count passengers manually..So much for beeing a non-threat ah?


"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
User currently offlineRobsawatsky From Canada, joined Dec 2003, 597 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 2958 times:

"http://travel.aircanada.ca

Go ahead and try getting in... "

As I said, the site is publicly accessible. Only the login and help page, but meets the letter of the affidavit (well, the part stated in the original post anyway).

I'm surprised they don't have a strong restrictions warning on the login page.


User currently offlineCanadaEH From Canada, joined Jul 2003, 1341 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2948 times:

Slawko I didn't know you work for Jetsgo?




EH.
User currently offlineSkywatcher From Canada, joined Sep 2002, 460 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 2866 times:

How does Westjet handle their own staff travel requirements?

They must also have a website which would seem to be the most efficient way to handle such a process.


User currently offlineCanadaEH From Canada, joined Jul 2003, 1341 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 2829 times:

Our process is quite simple actually.

If an employee, travel companion, or family member wants to travel there is a telephone number we call to list for a flight. The reservation agent tells us if there are more than 9 seats available and how many other standby's are listed. He/she does not give specific load numbers unless there are less than 9 seats available.

I can't speak for other bases, but the employees in YVR usually check with a CSA (if we aren't one) for the specific loads. If you have been terminated or leave the company, you are able to keep your buddy passes but you don't have access to computers or load information.

I also heard within the past year from Don Bell that we're probably making a website for the employees - and the employees ONLY - to book/list for flights.

The whole idea of Air Canada allowing access to load information to ex-employees just seems irresponsible to me...



EH.
User currently offlineWhiteguy From Canada, joined Nov 2003, 799 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2798 times:

Irresponsible-How about accessing the web-site and using the relevent information to better your companies position! Do you really think the website set up for WJ employees to travel with would be any more secure than the AC website.

User currently offlineCanadaEH From Canada, joined Jul 2003, 1341 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2786 times:

Re-read my post, Whiteguy. I said it was irresponsible to allow ex-Air Canada employees access to load information. If the information was as sensitive as Air Canada has claimed then why allow people to view it if they no longer work for the company?

I've yet to read anything that says we (Westjet) didn't do what is alledged, so I'm assuming that we did. However, Air Canada is going to have a hard time claiming damages. If Air Canada knew that someone was accessing the employee website, why did they let it continue for however many months (10 in total)? It could be argued that AC was building its case, but that's garbage. Air Canada is just as liable to have allowed the continued access (200,000+ hits!??!) as Westjet is to have accessed it. Toss in SARS, 9/11, downturn in the economy, increased competition domestically, and whatever other reasons Air Canada has given for poor results, and its hard to put a number on "damages".

I'm not saying what we did was right, I've maintained that position from the start. This case is going to be very interesting to follow, especially when we can hear both sides of the story in greater, more truthful detail.



EH.
User currently offlineWhiteguy From Canada, joined Nov 2003, 799 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2740 times:

From what I've heard around work, AC didn't find out the first day that someone was looking at the website so many times. They found out after 10 months and then did their research into the history of the employee number to find out how many times the site had been accessed. To say that AC let these actions happen is a pretty pathetic defence.

User currently offlineAWspicious From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 2735 times:

"Slawko I didn't know you work for Jetsgo?"
Seems we've found one of those pax counters, eh  Wink/being sarcastic

Perhaps, Air Canada needs to re-assess what kind of access former employees should have to their website. To me, it doesn't seem proper for people to have active employee/PIN numbers if they're no longer employed with an organization.


User currently offlineCanoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2839 posts, RR: 12
Reply 17, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 2737 times:

Re-read my post, Whiteguy. I said it was irresponsible to allow ex-Air Canada employees access to load information. If the information was as sensitive as Air Canada has claimed then why allow people to view it if they no longer work for the company?

I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong, however I was flying AS today to California from SEA. One of our pilots was waiting for a JS authorization, he and I were talking about how full the flights on AS were now that the summer season was on. He basically said that AS has the same system AC has, available to current and previous employees.

I would suggest that there are more than a few airlines susceptible to the same thing AC had happen to them. But, I think the day you set that system up for your employees and you have X thousand employees working for you, this will happen. If all you need is an user ID and a password, look no further than the internet, you will find it for sale if you give it out.



The beatings will continue until morale improves
User currently offlineWestJetYYZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2701 times:

Hey Slawko, I can assure you that while we were in T3, that both jetsGo and CanJet also did pax counts on WestJet... that is considered somewhat "kosher" in the industry to be counting heads at check-in counters or gates.

User currently offlineTheHangarCat From Canada, joined Apr 2002, 87 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2687 times:

Hey Adrian, don't forget when AC used to send 3 nice ladies camouflaged in civilian gear to sit at out dept gate and count our loads... They'd sit there chatting it up and drinking coffee all morning and then they'd come up to the counter to ask us for the loads. It was also funny when some of our CSA's would acknowledge them and ask our guests to wave to the nice ladies from AC that came all the way from T2 to see how we do things at WestJet...

Everybody counts everybody...

it was a nice way to take an extended coffee break.

Peace,
TheHangarCat



If it Ain't Boeing, I ain't Going!
User currently offlineOlympus69 From Canada, joined Jun 2002, 1737 posts, RR: 7
Reply 20, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2684 times:

Are you guys sure that this site is not the one that they are talking about -

HTTP://www.achorizons.ca

This seems to be an employee site; I think parts of it require a password.


User currently offlineWhiteguy From Canada, joined Nov 2003, 799 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2638 times:

You can't get passenger load information from that website.

User currently offlineAC_B777 From Canada, joined Aug 2000, 809 posts, RR: 13
Reply 22, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 2606 times:

The former AC employee who's employee number and password were used by WS had taken a severance package from AC. In this package, he kept some of his employee travel privledges. Because the preferred way (and really only way unless you want to be on the phone all night) to book travel on passes is through the employee travel website, he was allowed to keep his profile on the site and was still able to access it with his employee number and password.
He was not permitted to hand it out to WS management. Yes, AC should have recognized it earlier and put a stop to it, I don't know why they never. However, don't BS me by telling me that if AC had done this to WS, there wouldn't have been hell to pay. I guess in most of your opinions, if AC had done this to WS, they should pay with bloody hell, but it's perfectly fine for WS to do it to AC.
As for pax counting, I have seen reps from WS, JG, C6 and others do it to AC and each other.



In life, some days you are the bug..... some days you are the windshield!
User currently offlineCanadaEH From Canada, joined Jul 2003, 1341 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 2602 times:

The issue is not if AC had done this to WJ.

I see Air Canada winning this lawsuit and its $5M that it is sueing for. Beyond that, I have a difficult time accepting "damages" for an airline that lost $2B in the past 15 months.



EH.
User currently offlineCON207 From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 292 posts, RR: 11
Reply 24, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2589 times:

I wonder if AC are still upset at WJ winning the top airline award in Canada.
Now they are suing them for "Spying".

When an employee is dismissed, layed off, leaves for other employment etc...
a person should have their rights cut off as they are no longer with the company. If the site could be accessed by anyone other than someone within AC then it doesn't say much for security does it?

Makes you wonder if anyone can access their site, so can terrorists!!

Good luck Westjet

Sue  Smile



Being ill sucks. Never take life for granted!!
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