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Legal To Own?  
User currently offlineNudelhirsch From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 1438 posts, RR: 19
Posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3166 times:

Hi,

I heard different things, so maybe someone can clear up and if possible provide me with a link.

Is it legal in USA to purchase and own flight gear, while not being any form of Pilot, be it commercial or private?
I especially think of maps, logbooks, uniforms, and all that stuff.
I have seen lots of cool stuff on e-bay and it would cool to own some genuine flightgear, but being here on Visa and not even American Citizen I dont want any trouble.

Anyone can help?

Thx


Putana da Seatbeltz!
30 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineItsjustme From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 2808 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3121 times:

Nudelhirsch,

I don't know if you're being serious or not with your question but I will give you the benefit of the doubt and give you a legitimate answer. As a law enforcement officer in California I can only speak for my jurisdiction but I don't know of any Californina Penal Code you'd be violating by being in possession of the items you mentioned, assuming they weren't stolen or taken in a crime of any kind. That being said, if you were found to be in possession of those items and could not produce proper identification that would justify you having them, you can rest assured you'd raise my suspicion and I'd find a reason to detain you until the local Feds had a chance to talk to you.

Common sense should tell you that in this day and age, not being a pilot but being in possession of a pilot's uniform or any of "that stuff" would not be a wise thing to do.


User currently offlineNudelhirsch From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 1438 posts, RR: 19
Reply 2, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3103 times:

Thanks, that's about what I assumed, and I prefer to be careful, as You mentioned in these times it is strange, and not really wise.
Thats why I asked.
What about those people offering stuff at E-bay? Do they face any consequences or trouble?
Anyways, let's have safe skies, that is better than some collector's weird fun.



Putana da Seatbeltz!
User currently offlineJamotcx From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 1037 posts, RR: 24
Reply 3, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3095 times:

Huh?????

Are the two of you taking the piss? Why cant anyone own these items?

I can walk into any flying school and have a flying lesson. I can also walk into any pilots shop and buy these items with no ID etc.

Big deal you own a log book or a map of the local area. I have loads of maps of all the airways from UK down throughout Europe. I also have a local VFR chart for northern England. And the biggest thing of all, I haven't started my pilot training yet! Does that now make me a terrorism suspect?


Jamo


User currently offlineItsjustme From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 2808 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3084 times:

Again, I can only speak for my jurisdiction but as for the sale of the items you mentioned, as long as they weren't stolen or related to a crime of any kind, then the seller is not violating any California law.

However, if the seller is selling property that they do not rightfully own, such as a uniform or equipment that is owned by his or her employer, then they could be guilty of embezzlement.



User currently offlineQm001 From Portugal, joined Mar 2004, 282 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3079 times:

Jamotcx,

I am afraid (From experience) that whilst the US is supposed to be the land of the brave and free, they in actual fact will not allow you to possess anything that could even remotely be construed as being suspicious.

I recently traveled to the US, and was in possession of a book on Afghanistan and its history. Admittedly the book is rather controversial and rather stupidly I decided to take it with me. Not only was the book confiscated when I entered the US, but I was detained without question for 1 hour for questioning by some moron who I am sure could not even spell his own name. I had a very similar experience in the UK, however they did not confiscate the book I was reading at the time.

Now whilst I have the greatest respect for security agents just trying to do their Job and keep everyone safe from terrorists. Here comes a time when their jobs are just going too Far.

In this age of paranoia, that everyone is out to get us, sometimes people give up certain freedoms in order to keep the peace. Is this right?

Please excuse any political connotation to this response, but I was and still am rather annoyed by these incidents.

Kindest regards,

QM001 (167 Air Malawi)



I wish there was still a flying boat service on the African Lakes!
User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12866 posts, RR: 46
Reply 6, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3058 times:
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I am afraid (From experience) that whilst the US is supposed to be the land of the brave and free, they in actual fact will not allow you to possess anything that could even remotely be construed as being suspicious.

Yes many totally innocent items will now cause suspicion, but watching porn on a flight (see separate thread) and owning guns is perfectly OK!  Insane



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana! #44cHAMpion
User currently offlineItsjustme From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 2808 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3045 times:

Jamotcx,

I have no idea what "taking the piss" means in the United Kingdom but here in the United States, it means urinating. I can't speak for Nudelhirsch, but I assure you that, as I am writing this, I am not.

The original post pertained specifically to USA law and I provided an answer from a personal level as a law enforcement officer in the USA. If you will reread my response, you will note that I said mere possession of the items mentioned did not constitute a violation of California law but that it would, however, raise my suspicion. Although I didn't spell it out in my response, I was speaking specifically with regard to possessing a pilot's uniform.

Call me a paranoid American but I would find it a little strange that someone who is not a bonified commercial airline pilot would have the uniform of such in their possession and it's possible you would be slightly inconvenienced. If that offends you, so be it.


User currently offlineJamotcx From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 1037 posts, RR: 24
Reply 8, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3010 times:

woah whats that attack for?

taking the piss means joking.

The airline uniform thing, i was thinking about buying one just for a joke next time i go out with my mates. I dont really see what the problem is with owning one. Some guys own womens clothes and dress up in them.

Even if you have an airline uniform theres no way in hell you can get to a plane without security passes!


Jamo


User currently offlineJwenting From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 10213 posts, RR: 19
Reply 9, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2990 times:

The problem is not you owning a pilot's uniform but what you do with it.
Owning one, even wearing one, is not illegal.
Using one to try to get into restricted areas would be illegal.
And don't laugh, I think it's tried more often than you think and could well work especially during the small hours of darkness when the mind is slow and the eyes are heavy.

Using one to show off would be stupid. I've seen many people go hard on their face when trying that stunt...

I can understand why the finding of aviation charts and other items might set a police officer on guard IF they already had suspicions about the person involved.
I doubt severely that just the posession would be enough to arouse suspicion as to your motifs.
Many flight simulator fans and aircraft spotters have aviation charts, though most don't use uniforms..



I wish I were flying
User currently offlineItsjustme From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 2808 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2934 times:

Jamo,

My response was not meant as an attack and if it came off as such, I sincerely apologize. I truly didn't know what "taking the piss" meant but now that I do, no, I wasn't joking. When I said I would find it suspicious if someone possessed a commercial airline pilot's uniform who had no business doing so, I meant it and I would act accordingly.

We receive a surprisingly large amount of intelligence advisories from the FBI each month that outline possible methods used for future attacks. The potential for the use of bogus airline uniforms, F/A, pilots, and mechanics included, to gain access to secure areas is considered strong. If the diligence of a law enforcement officer results in a bonified airline employee being delayed for a few minutes so that their ID can be verified, I have a feeling he or she won't mind.


User currently offlineOobitsa From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 79 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2910 times:

Rest assured that having any of these items in your posession is not a crime. Any authorities that challenge you on your posession of these items (in the US, at least) are walking a fine line and are far closer to violating the law than you are. A quick review of the Fourth, Fifth, Sixth, Eighth and Fourteenth Amendments of the US Constitution should straighten them out!

God Bless Everyone
(No exceptions!!!!)


User currently offlineItsjustme From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 2808 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2830 times:

Oobitsa,

Thank you for that refresher course on the US Constitution. I'll bet you can recite your Miranda rights by heart as well. Those afternoon TV talk shows are an amazing educational tool, aren't they?

Might I suggest you bone up on your reading skills? I haven't seen anyone in this thread suggest that simple possession of the items mentioned being a crime. Further, can you enlighten me please on what "thin line" an authority would be walking should they ask someone possessing a commercial airline pilot's uniform for proper ID? I must have missed that episode on Oprah.


User currently offlineOobitsa From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 79 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2803 times:

Easy there, Itsjustme. I mean no offense against you or the rest of law enforcement.

I happen to work for a living, so I'm not home for afternoon talkshows. As a contracts attorney, I might not be worthy of your respect, but I do no plenty about the constitution from 3 years in law school and six years as a Captial Hill staffer before moving on to private practice. What, pray tell, are your ACADEMIC credentials in the field?


User currently offlineNudelhirsch From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 1438 posts, RR: 19
Reply 14, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2785 times:

Opps, looks I starte something here...lol

I was just curious, as I heard several reports about stuff available onplaces like E-Bay, most of these I heard back home in Germany, and I have seen stuff, which is leagl to sell, but illegal to buy, which for me is funny jurisdiction.
I know from German law, that possesing radar alerts for You car is legal, but once You use it, it isn't any longer. So I was just curious, how the situation is in an abviously dense topic, like we can read above.
I do not plan to become like Leonardo DiCaprio, or to pretend anything I am not, I was getting curious seeing these things for sale to public, while it is obvious, that it is not exactly wise to run around on the street and show that stuff.
So, let's not get political.
Oh, and I am not sitting on the lav either, while writing that...although I understood the phrase well...lol



Putana da Seatbeltz!
User currently offlineUALongHaul From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 227 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2746 times:

"Are the two of you taking the piss? Why cant anyone own these items?"

Anyone ever see demolition man were sandara bullock uses modern day sayings incorrectly? "Taking the Piss"?? Are you serious? Why would anyone say anything like that and be serious about it. I think you are bound to get in a heap of trouble if you are found with pilots gear on, maps in hand, while "taking a piss" in a large group.

I am unsure as to why having any of this stuff is illegal. If you are going ot hijack a plane, are you going to make sure you are outfitted in proper pilots uniform and stupid looking hat? I doubt it. Why on earth would you want a pilots uniform anyway? I hope you are talking more about a jumpsuit than a jacket with gold threading all over it.

I'd go ahead and buy whatever you want.


User currently offlineJohnJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 1685 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2669 times:

Not long ago I went into the office at a flight school near me and bought a Jeppesen New York sectional chart. I'm not a pilot and nobody gave me the slightest hassle whatsoever.

User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2666 times:

A quick review of the Fourth, Fifth, Sixth, Eighth and Fourteenth Amendments of the US Constitution should straighten them out!

Under the Patriot Act, these no longer apply to aliens who have been designated as special interest persons by the Attorney General or his designees (any FBI agent).

And yes, I speak from experience as an alien who had due process violated multiple times by Federal agents under the guise of the so-called Patriot Act.

[Edited 2004-06-14 19:58:40]

User currently offlineSllevin From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 3376 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2611 times:

The only way there could be an issue would be if you were wearing a pilot's uniform to the airport. These days, even my fairly-liberal self would argue that'[s just not a smart thing to do. Even if you are not abjecting doing anything to impersonate a pilot for the puproses of getting into secured areas, etc. etc., still, that's a reasonable flag for security.

As far as travelling with pilot gear, logs, maps, AFM's or military -1's -- there's no problem with that.

Steve


User currently offlineAdriaticus From Mexico, joined May 2004, 1140 posts, RR: 18
Reply 19, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2540 times:

<< ...As a law enforcement officer in California I can only speak for my jurisdiction but I don't know of any Californina Penal Code you'd be violating by being in possession of the items you mentioned, assuming they weren't stolen or taken in a crime of any kind. That being said, if you were found to be in possession of those items and could not produce proper identification that would justify you having them, you can rest assured you'd raise my suspicion and I'd find a reason to detain you until the local Feds had a chance to talk to you. >>

Sounds, to say the least, very contradictory... Just what kind of "law enorcement official" takes interpretation of the right to freedom of any human being in his own hands, and upon his very own will or (mis)judgment, in grounds of "suspicion", interrupts free passage and wastes the time of the lawful posessor of legal aviation items? (and that, having just said that any penal code had been violated!!!) Just who the hey would admit such nonsense?

I am attorney with responsibilities over more than a dozen countries and legal systems. None of these allow for "law enforcement officials" to interfere with private persons' activities unless mandated by a judge or while a criminal offence is actually taking place, as they say, ("in fraganti")... Bottomline, in any of those countries would a "law enforcement official" be entitled to detain someone "until the feds", or anyone else for that matter, question him/her, just because the guy was "detected" out in the street wearing a funny-looking suit with gold ribbons...

I tell you, that repressive instrument called "patriot act" is the hardest blow to civil rights and freedoms the world has seen since Hitler and the Iron Curtain. So much for the land of the free. It is sad when the fine word "patriot" is used to mislead free will and legitimize/justify horrid violations of human, civil and even political rights... It is also a grim day when any kind of law enforcer justifies any violation to due process rights... no matter the excuse.

I wonder how long will it be before most of the citizens of the US start realizing what is going on around them...

__Ad.



A300/18/19/20/21 B721/2 B732/3/G/8 B741/2/4 B752 B762/3/4 B772/3 DC8/9/10 MD11 TU134/154 IL62/86 An24 SA340/2000 E45/90
User currently offlineCopter808 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1132 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2508 times:

There should be no problem with purchasing or possessing any flight gear. As for the pilot uniform, that's already been discussed here. Your post didn't specify whether you were talking about an airline pilot uniform, or perhaps a military flight suit. As mentioned before, the airline pilot uniform would raise suspicion--same as a policeman's uniform. A military flight suit would probably cause fewer problems, particularly since they can be very practical if you're going to start flying. They may look silly, but the Nomex fire protection is well worth the cost. Same with flight helmets--expensive to purchase but well worth the cost in a crash.

There is no statute that I am aware of which would prevent you from buying/owning/possessing any of the above. If it was used in commission of a crime, then it would probably be illegal, but not otherwise.


User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2482 times:

Just what kind of "law enorcement official" takes interpretation of the right to freedom of any human being in his own hands, and upon his very own will or (mis)judgment, in grounds of "suspicion", interrupts free passage and wastes the time of the lawful posessor of legal aviation items?

Welcome to the world of "Reasonable Suspicion" versus "Probable Cause". Courts regularly give police officers plenty of room on the former (the entire concept of "Terry Stops" is built around individual officer judgement vis-a-vis RS). When you combine this with the Patriot Act provisions for indefinite detention sans specific charges, you have a very potent and dangerous mix brewing.

Before anyone things I'm cop bashing, you couldn't be farther from the truth. I worked 3 years for a Law Enforcement Agency in Georgia while I was in college and I'm well aware of the frustrations that due process imposes upon field work. I've seen felony cases thrown out of court on technicalities and it doesn't get any more frustrating than that. I've also seen and experienced firsthand what happens in the absence of due process. The way to get through this is by having a well structured comprehensive system for enforcement. When the system is cobbled together using a bunch of half-baked laws and jurisdictions like it is right now, there are far more cracks and loopholes for things to slip through.

Sorry for going this far off topic, but I felt it was relevant to the discussion. Back to Nudelhirsch's question, while there is no reason why any of that is illegal and possesion of those does not constitute probable cause in itself, when combined with other elements of the circumstance they may be discovered under they might indeed be construed as such and hence I would reccomend that you not proceed with acquiring those unless you have a specific utility planned for them and can document it accordingly.


User currently offlineAGrayson514 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 396 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2447 times:

There are no laws in the United States that say that you cannot own these items. I own an Air Force pilot uniform, a navy uniform, and I have a few commercial aviation items such as hats and company shirts. I got the Air Force and Navy stuff from family members, and the other stuff from garage sales and eBay. While some people would prefer that you didn't, there is not formal law stating that you can't.

~ Andrew Grayson



Give a little bit...
User currently offlineItsjustme From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 2808 posts, RR: 9
Reply 23, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2369 times:

Sounds, to say the least, very contradictory... Just what kind of "law enorcement official" takes interpretation of the right to freedom of any human being in his own hands, and upon his very own will or (mis)judgment, in grounds of "suspicion", interrupts free passage and wastes the time of the lawful posessor of legal aviation items? (and that, having just said that any penal code had been violated!!!) Just who the hey would admit such nonsense?

Very impressive, if not somewhat confusing verbiage. One of the great things about this board is the ability of those contributing to the topic to speak candidly and that's what I was doing when I replied to the original question about the legality of purchasing and possessing flight gear (by the way Nudelhirsch, the only thing you started here was some spirited discussion and that's one of the things that keeps this board interesting). I spoke in specifics pertaining to what my thought process and reaction would be should I come across someone possessing a commercial airline pilot's uniform who was not a commercial airline pilot. Just as I would think someone working in a uniform store would question why someone would walk in off the street and purchase a pilot's uniform (not generic flight gear, but an actual uniform), I stand by my original response that it would not be unreasonable to see that as "suspicious" and appropriate follow up would be warranted.







User currently offlineEclipseFlight7 From Somalia, joined Apr 2004, 518 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2276 times:

What I know is that I'm a British immigrant on an E-2 visa and I take flight training in America. I have a Jepp bag filled with all I need to know and I haven't had any problems with the government. Even though I am a pilot I still wouldn't see any problems with it. And besides, unless the government decides to undertake a raid of every house in the US, then why would they have any problem?

Yeah, I probably just lit the grill, so if you want to flame me for not being honest or something, just remember to flip me over after 10 minutes.



Holy sh*ts and burritos.
25 Blackbird1331 : Law enforcement actions have resulted in Supreme Court decisions that favored the accused. A local law enforcement officer is now in jail for taking b
26 Access-Air : Well, collecting such items as a hobby is fine. If you were buying these materials to do someone some harm, then there would be a problem. Still, law
27 Jwenting : Can I own the uniform of a priest or police officer? Yes you can. But you can NOT go out on the street in that police uniform and behave in such a way
28 Post contains images Scbriml : Don't any of you people ever go to FANCY DRESS PARTIES?
29 AGrayson514 : Oy, forgot about the patriot act...That might change things for you. ~ Andrew Grayson
30 VEEREF : As far as I know it is not illegal to own the items, but if you were to say, go to the airport dressed in a uniform and were to be questioned, that wo
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