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Could A Low Cost Long Haul Airline Work?  
User currently offlineBWIA 772 From Barbados, joined May 2002, 2200 posts, RR: 2
Posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 8795 times:

How come we havent seen a low cost carrier that just deals with long haul routes. What is so different that we cant see airlines lets say that only offer trans-atlantic flights to the USA from UK or continental Europe or vice versa?


Eagles Soar!
38 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25086 posts, RR: 85
Reply 1, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 8780 times:
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The Qantas subsidiary, Australian Airlines, is all long haul, and I think it's supposed to be a Low Cost Carrier:

http://www.australianairlines.com.au/aahome.html

cheers

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineSOUTHAMERICA From Colombia, joined Dec 2003, 2497 posts, RR: 10
Reply 2, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 8777 times:

How come we havent seen a low cost carrier that just deals with long haul routes.

****cough***Air Madrid****cough  Big grin


SOUTHAMERICA


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5403 posts, RR: 7
Reply 3, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 8768 times:

Tower Air tried it out of JFK, but failed. I think they went to Paris, Tel Aviv, and San Juan, PR among other places. One of my kids took it to Paris and said it was ok, but really crowded.

Not sure why they failed, but I think they were perpetually undercapitalized.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineVirginFlyer From New Zealand, joined Sep 2000, 4537 posts, RR: 41
Reply 4, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 8706 times:

Mariner - Australian Airlines is not supposed to be a low cost carrier like Virgin Blue, Southwest or Ryanair, but rather a full service all economy airline, with a lower cost base than Qantas.

There have been a number of airlines which have tried running a transatlantic LCC. The two which stick out in my mind both predate the current LCC craze by a good 15-20 years:

Laker Skytrain


View Large View Medium

Photo © Frank C. Duarte Jr.
View Large View Medium

Photo © Howard Chaloner



PEOPLExpress


View Large View Medium

Photo © Frank C. Duarte Jr.
View Large View Medium

Photo © Robert M. Campbell



Both of them ran into financial difficulties - Laker going into receivership and being liquidated, while PEOPLExpress was bought out by Texas International and merged into Continental.

The problem with applying the LCC model as demonstrated by DJ, FR, WN etc to a long haul operation is that one of the big ways in which these airlines keeps costs down is by having their aircraft in the air as much as possible, with quick turnarounds. This formula becomes more difficult to apply as you get longer sector lengths. Having to deal with immigration and customs can also increase time spent on the ground. That's not to say a long haul LCC couldn't work, but it would be somewhat more difficult than a short haul one...

V/F

[Edited 2004-06-18 09:36:05]


"So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth." - Bahá'u'lláh
User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 8695 times:

In Europe Ryanair is the only one that have the financial muscle to do that,
I suggested an Shannon-Boston route on another forum but it was not likely?



User currently offlineBWIA 772 From Barbados, joined May 2002, 2200 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 8663 times:

So does anyone think that a Jet Blue based concept could work for a long haul low cost carrier??


Eagles Soar!
User currently offlineRichardw From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 3749 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 8644 times:

Maybe if you could get a minimum of 4 sectors per 24 hour period, but then it would be Medium to Long haul, and you didn't have the Saturday night stay rule, and a B767 with 2-4-2.

User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 8632 times:

B767 with 2-4-2 ? Only European charter carriers have been able to get away with that - nobody will pay good money for a scheduled service with that level of discomfort, I'm sorry.

User currently offlineKEno From Malaysia, joined Feb 2004, 1842 posts, RR: 27
Reply 9, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 8631 times:

Backpackers Express will soon fly from Manchester & Munich to Australia.

User currently offlineRichardw From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 3749 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 8619 times:

B767 with 2-4-2 may be needed for it to work!

User currently offlineAntares From Australia, joined Jun 2004, 1402 posts, RR: 39
Reply 11, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 8595 times:

The day of a 'RyanAtlantic' type of operation is probably fast approaching.

Give me a 777 with 9 abreast seating , a 32 inch seat pitch, good audio-video on demand, and a choice of decent food and drink to buy, and I'd fly that non-stop from Sydney to LAX any day rather than the punishment given to economy class travellers on Qantas and United at the moment.


User currently offlineRichardw From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 3749 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 8530 times:

Is it a case of better food would improve your flight experience, Antares?

User currently offlineSrbrenna From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 100 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 8511 times:

You're all forgetting that while short haul is easy - there is cabotage within EU countries and the US domestic market is huge - long haul is still regulated by loads of treaties, the most restrictive being Bermuda II. Until this aspect is sorted out I can't see it happening in the short term.

Looking at it economically I can't see too many problems if they have the right aircraft (7E7 if the running costs are low and the cattle truck A380)


User currently offlineErj170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6762 posts, RR: 17
Reply 14, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 8498 times:

Rivierajet is supposed to be doing just that market...

http://www.rivierajet.com/main.html

Supposed to start 2004 but who knows...



Aiming High and going far..
User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 8477 times:

Rivierajet - finally an airline that wants to fly to Nice direct from the US. Shame its just another paper airline.

User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12090 posts, RR: 49
Reply 16, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 8367 times:

The one thing to remember about the difference between LCC's and a long haul is this. The frequent flyers are willing to give up 1.000 miles to save a few bucks here and there, now 3.000 miles one way, well that is a whole different story. That is where the fight will be. Also keep in mind that if your a long haul LCC's and that is what your focus is going to be, where is the feed to fill your flights? And if you need to buy a flight to make your flight, where is the savings?


You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineRichardw From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 3749 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 8289 times:

But if you mainly fly low cost you haven't earnt many miles to give up!

Also if you fly at the lowest fares on full service airlines you don't earn many miles.

If a business person does not want to stay a Saturday night and they can fly low cost for £248 return instead of full service £398 return, saving £150, then they will want to make the saving.


User currently offlineCorsair2 From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 248 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 8268 times:

A low cost long haul? No in-flight entertainment, no meals, high density 3-4-3 seating. Sound like a model a low cost carrier would put forth and lure unsuspecting travelers with.


"We have clearance Clarence. Roger, Roger. What's our vector Victor?"
User currently offlineNORTHSEATIGER From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 432 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 8258 times:

is'nt there one which flyus from glasgow to canada and the us for £115 return ??, started by an ex pat business man ?? or did it go belly up, they were going to use 767's


T's And P's look good....Rotate
User currently offlineRichardw From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 3749 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 8239 times:

Do u mean

http://www.flyzoom.com

?


User currently offlineAa757first From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3347 posts, RR: 8
Reply 21, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 8237 times:

Not sure why they failed, but I think they were perpetually undercapitalized.

That and the planes were held together by duct tape.

A low cost long haul? No in-flight entertainment, no meals, high density 3-4-3 seating. Sound like a model a low cost carrier would put forth and lure unsuspecting travelers with.

A long haul LCC would have to be different than the domestic LCCs. IFE? Maybe not PTVs, but drop down monitors. LH doesn't have PTVs. Plus, now the airline can make money on headphone sales. Meals? On a USA to Europe flight, for dinner how about something like this?



And for breakfast:



I think it could work.

AAndrew


User currently offlineCoTXDFW777AA From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 321 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 8212 times:

Well all you have to do is look at Virgin Atlantic...............


Texas- it's like a whole different country!
User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 8206 times:

Virgin Atlantic - low cost ? You're having a larf ! Maybe back when it started, but not so much of the low cost these days - same price as everyone else.

User currently offlineVatveng From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 958 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 8134 times:

Is Icelandair considered LCC?


Visited VA,NC,PA,SC,FL,GA,OH,AL,TX,TN,CO,CA,UT,NV,NM,IN,KY,MD,MO,CT,MA,NH,ME.
25 CKT523 : Good god.All this talk of meals and IFE, if you cant go for 8 hours without an airline meal you shouldn't be out of the house let alone flying! If I w
26 JGPH1A : 2-4-2 layout on a 767 is borderline criminal, they only reason BY got away with it so long is their pax were a pretty isolated market that only flew o
27 Boysteve : Book in Advance and there is no need to turn to an intercontinental LCC. Last year I flew Aer Lingus MAN-DUB-LAX and return for £289 booked 6 months
28 Baw2198 : Give me a 777 3-3-3 seating with 34-35 inch pitch in seat comfort (if its all economy why not make it comfortable for everybody and set the example fo
29 Antares : I think RichardW and Baw2198 are on the right track on this. But it is more than better food. At the moment I can buy better food on Virgin Blue the A
30 Elwood64151 : Actually, if a LCC has the support of a regional low-cost network to support the trans-atlantic/pacific/south american routes (I'm assuming a US-based
31 Transtar01 : A new long haul LCC on the horizon. Keep an eye open for Primarus. Headquartered in LAS, plan on long haul domestic and international in a First Class
32 Erj170 : Dont forget.... (The Biotech/Pharma Shuttles) SAN-RDU-Frankfurt LAX-RDU-CDG SFO-RDU-AMS They could work! Maybe.. perhaps...
33 MasseyBrown : Elwood, your model looks like Panam at some point late in its life. The trouble is the non-New York part of the country hated flying through JFK. Give
34 Expressjetphx : The problem with the long-haul LCC is not only the food and entertainment factor, but also the premium-class passengers. Even legacy carriers cannot s
35 Hnl-Jack : Perhaps the issue is not low cost, but low overhead. Existing long haul wide-body carriers are generally layered in unions, years of expensive pension
36 Snnams : I think we will soon see an attempt at low cost long haul, but there are some carriers who have lowered fares on long haul through cutting costs accro
37 Ltbewr : VS did start out serving LGW-EWR as a 'discount' carrier, offering more seats at the cheapest fares with little notice, including 'standby'/same day f
38 Horus : Isn't Lufthansa starting a new low cost long-haul arm to their operations? Is Icelandair considered LCC? Have you seen their prices?
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