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Why Isn't The A380 Popular With Charter Operators?  
User currently offlineGoMEA From France, joined Jan 2004, 202 posts, RR: 7
Posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 5211 times:

I was wondering with the huge capacity and range it offers, why any charter operator wasn't interested in the A380.

One can benefit of a very favourable seat/km ratio with 800 passengers (forget the nice pitch !)on board, let alone cargo that can be transported.

Some operators have 747's, DC10's, Tristars so why not 380's?

Is it the price that is too high? Aircraft utilization that cannot optimized during off season period?

Do you think when the first 380's will be on the 2nd hand market, charter operators will be more keen on having one or two in their fleet?

What do you think about this?

regards


MEA raising the Cedar far up in the sky
24 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineRoberta From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 5193 times:

Why buy an A380 to fit 800 pax into a plane when they could just cram 800 into a DC-10.  Insane

User currently offlineFlyf15 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 5193 times:

For the same reason you don't see many out there with 747-400s....

User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 3, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 5177 times:

The 747-400 is not really that popular with IT operators, either.

Tis EXPENSVE to acquire.

N


User currently offlineVirginFlyer From New Zealand, joined Sep 2000, 4575 posts, RR: 41
Reply 4, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 5161 times:

The main reason you won't see charter operators ordering the A380 in the short term is that it will initially only be certified to carry 555 passengers. Once/if the certification is upped to, say, 800, then there could well be interest. Nouvelle Frontiers (owner (do they still own them?) of Corsair) was mooted as a possible customer for the A380 a few years back.

V/F



"So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth." - Bahá'u'lláh
User currently offlineWhiteHatter From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 5155 times:

What would a charter carrier do with an A380 out of season?

Leasing one out (Hajj for example) would also be difficult.

The charter business (in Europe particularly) isn't really an ideal place for a high capacity and long range aircraft.


User currently offlineAirconti From Germany, joined Jun 2004, 148 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 5153 times:

I recall German Charter Carrier Condor (formerly known as 'Thomas Cook' - sorry .-)) ) used B747s in the 70's - and seized Operations, as it was quite difficult to fill the seats on full-charters. Even the former DC10-30s used until the 90's were some kind of nightmare to fill up - as I recall a past meeting in Condor's HQ - Quote: Oh my God, they gave me a DC10 - How should I fill the 370y seats? - Unquote......I know, French Corsair is using 747s or similar. However for the standard charter market, the A380 is just too big.....and aditionally, the Airports - I think of the charter destinations, not the departure A/Ds - are not always the real big one's - even on long-haul - and most likely would not be qualified for the A380. Imagine this huge A/C in PUJ or MBJ, or even MBA, where in the past, even A310 or B767 had weight problems. And just for AB) (FRA / FRF / EDDF), Germany">FRA-PMI it's just too expensive to buy such an aircraft.
Therefore my conclusion: Too big, too heavy and too expensive.


User currently offlineWorldoftui From Sweden, joined Aug 2007, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 5134 times:

The A380 would be a poor choice for most charter carriers IMHO.

Would be impossible to fill off-season, and a challenge to fill during the season. Even high density like LGW-PMI or LGW-ALC, the charters are beginning to go for frequency with mid-size aircraft rather than less frequency with large aircraft. More choice for the customer, and more flexibility for the airline and charterer.

Also, the A380 would be very restricted on the destinations it would serve. For example, most Greek airports would simply not be possible to upgrade to a sufficient standard, and these can be very busy airports, ie CFU. At least with smaller aircraft such as the 757/767 they can both operate there and sub up or down as demand requires.

A nice thought though, but think it would be unlikely. The A380 seems to be a true long-range aircraft, not what they are looking for. Also, even with all of their luggage, most of the valuable cargo space would often fly empty I guess.

Mark


User currently offlineM404 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 2229 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 4997 times:
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Charter operators like to say they can fly anywhere. Thats the selling point. Now do some research and see how many airports will be able to handle the A380. Airports will only attempt the costly upgrades if regular business is expected, not the occasional charter.

Charter operators have for the most part used only older more affordable equipment.



Less sarcasm and more thought equal better understanding
User currently offlineBigphilnyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 4077 posts, RR: 54
Reply 9, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 4861 times:

Forget why they wouldn't get it, how about THE PLANE ISN'T EVEN OUT YET! Relax.

"....why any charter operator wasn't interested in the A380."

Referring to the A380 like it's been retired already and no one ca order it anymore. lol



Phil Derner Jr.
User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12148 posts, RR: 49
Reply 10, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 4854 times:
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Price for one, and the risk to fill that many seats. Remember once the plane departs there is no way to ever get that seat cost back, for the unsold seats. It is better to add another flight or two and give your passengers a choice of times than to run one big plane. Also the charter market like anything changes and what might be hot today or next year, could be nothing two years from now.


You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineSrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 4827 times:

Many charter operators that currently have the larger widebody jets are really more into the ACMI (aka wetlease) market than the IT market. An airline like World Airways does have IT charter contracts, but it's the charter contracts with the US gov't (Air Mobility Command flights), capacity uplift for airlines, cargo charters and Hajj flights where they do the bulk of their business. Similar type story with Air Atlanta Icelandic. Look what the bulk of their operations over the years has been, operating flights for other airlines, not doing IT charters.

A few charter airlines in the early years of the 747/DC-10 did have them in their fleets, but many of them dropped them due to the higher costs. The only way I could see a charter operator with an A380 within the first decade of A380 operations would be an ACMI cargo operator acquiring some A380-800s (Atlas Air has been rumored to be ordering some, but their current fiancial situation makes that an unknown at this time).


User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 4803 times:

EK already has enough A380's on order to take care of the entire Hadj season itself.  Smile

User currently offlineZweed From Netherlands, joined Apr 2004, 455 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 4797 times:

cant see smaller airports in countries such as Spain and Greece being interested in upgrading their airports for a couple of possible A380 flights/season.

User currently offlineSolnabo From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 857 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 4757 times:

Imagine A380 w/800 pax from My Travel landing on Kos/Greece, 95% drunk, going to pick up their bags and stuff.....whatta CAOS!!  Wow! *lol*


Airbus SAS - Love them both
User currently offlineRayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 8031 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 4736 times:

I think it's FAR more likely that European charter airlines would rather buy the 7E7-8 instead. If only because even with the plane fully loaded in all-Economy configuration of around 250-260 passengers you still have the range of the A330-200 in multiple seating class configuration of around 6,500 nautical miles.  Smile

In short, the airlines of the TUI group would love to get their hands on the 7E7-8 to fly from Europe to eastern Asian, North American and South American destinations.


User currently offlineSolnabo From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 857 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 4724 times:

Stick to the topic, please!! *I smell another AvsB bitching*

Mike//SE



Airbus SAS - Love them both
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 997 posts, RR: 51
Reply 17, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 4665 times:

I think it's FAR more likely that European charter airlines would rather buy the 7E7-8 instead.

I believe an all-economy configuration in a 7E7-8 will actually push 300 passengers. The 763ER, which is almost an exact capacity match, shows 310 as the upper-limit in a single class config.


User currently offlineAirblue From San Marino, joined May 2001, 1825 posts, RR: 11
Reply 18, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks ago) and read 4626 times:

I think it's FAR more likely that European charter airlines would rather buy the 7E7-8 instead.

The Italian long haul airlines Blue Panorama said they are really interesting to change their B763s fleet with B7E7 when it will be available from leasing company.



User currently offlineWorldoftui From Sweden, joined Aug 2007, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks ago) and read 4621 times:

Charter operators have for the most part used only older more affordable equipment.

M404

That is a misconception. Certainly in the UK, most charter operators have relatively young fleets. With short turnround times and up to 18 or more hours a day in the air, they have to be reliable, or a delay is gonna cost big.


Mark


User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 20, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 4578 times:

Charter operators have for the most part used only older more affordable equipment.

As Mark just pointed out for the UK, the same is valid here in Germany: the oldest planes you'll see flying in German charter fleets are B737-3/4/500s or an occasional B757, but most of those are leaving soon... remember who the first B737-800 operator was? Hapag Lloyd, one of Germany's charter airlines.

Most charter fleets here consist of B737-800, A320/321, B767 and A330s.

As for the A380 not being popular with charter airlines? Aside from those very few B747s, there aren't even any B777s flying charters around - the biggest planes you'll find are A330s and B767s: so why, if there was no wide use of the B747, should charter operators now go for the A380?


Regards,
Frank



Smile - it confuses people!
User currently offlineM404 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 2229 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 4540 times:
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Leskova & Worldoftui

Good points and I stand corrected reference the older aircraft. I've had too much time here in the US with our charter carriers which do seem older than the European model. I was not thinking about the 737ng/320 size but the Wides like the poster was talking about. L1011s and early generation 747s were our standard. 727s and Dc9-10/30s the smaller. I did not take into account the original post was from France.

It's an interesting comparison of the two areas charter markets with the traditional Sun locations of southern Europe and the Corporate Vacation packages employees count on there. It's not as rich a playing field here for charters to support the newer aircraft you have.

Leskova does reinforce my point with his comparisons that the A380 is just too big for this market - But I would say that if it ever happens it will be in Europe first.



Less sarcasm and more thought equal better understanding
User currently offlineFRAspotter From United States of America, joined May 2004, 2360 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 4473 times:

Many tour operators just don't have the money or need to buy a brand new A380. Most tour operators like low-fare airlines want planes right away. They don't want to wait 2-3 years for a plane. Also they mostly buy 2nd hand planes instead of new ones.


"Drunk drivers run stop signs. Stoners wait for them to turn green."
User currently offlineAreopagus From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 1372 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 4415 times:

and aditionally, the Airports - I think of the charter destinations, not the departure A/Ds - are not always the real big one's - even on long-haul - and most likely would not be qualified for the A380.
***
Airports will only attempt the costly upgrades if regular business is expected, not the occasional charter.


I don't think that would be a problem. I flew in a BA 747 into Lusaka, where there weren't jet bridges at all. The plane parked, and we walked down a stairway and across the tarmac to get to the terminal. No one complained. For that matter, we used boarding stairs from the tarmac to emplane and deplane 777s at Tel Aviv.


User currently offlineFritzi From United Arab Emirates, joined Jun 2001, 2762 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 4355 times:

Imagine A380 w/800 pax from My Travel landing on Kos/Greece, 95% drunk, going to pick up their bags and stuff.....whatta CAOS!! *lol*


I´ve seen 60 (myself was one of those  Big grin) of those tourists and that was SURELY enough for one flight, if not too many. I dare not imagine how it would look with 800 pax!  Nuts


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