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AC: Forced Bilingual Policy May End Soon  
User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16248 posts, RR: 56
Posted (10 years 3 months 3 hours ago) and read 7306 times:

Canada is in the midst of a federal election campaign with a vote date of June 28th. The poll-leading Conservative party announced today that if elected they will introduce legislation to amend the Air Canada Act to enable:
1. AC to abandon the inefficient and discriminatory forced bilingual policy of French speaking service on all flights,
2. AC to relocate its HQ from YUL it is so chooses to do.

This is fantastic news for AC!

AC's route network has less than 10% of flights/route pairs serving French-speaking cities (primarily YUL, but also YQB, YQM, CDG, POP) yet currently ALL flights must contain 100& bilingual (English/French) staff. This is horrendously inefficient not to mention highly discriminatory as 71% of Canadians only speak English (not French). Of course French-speaking services will be maintained where they are commercially warranted.

Moreover, the HQ in YUL is an anachronism from when YUL was AC's largest market (surpassed by YYZ in 1964). A movement of the HQ to YYZ (for instance) would attract new mgmt talent that is obviously not available in YUL.

No mention is made of the requirement for AC to maintain mx bases in 3 cities -- this also needs to be de-legislated.

The 33k AC employees who are hoping for AC's survival hopefully will vote Conservative to ensure that these efficiencies are enacted.

All of this is contingent on the Conservatives being elected, and AC surviving -- it remains North America's highest cost airline with militant unions & incompetent mgmt, and it remains in bankruptcy close to liquidation.

This has been widely reported on radio this evening. I do not have an internet reference yet.





Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
195 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSafeFlyer From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 627 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (10 years 3 months 3 hours ago) and read 7268 times:

But unfortunately, the Conservatives are not going to form a majority government so this is not going to happen. The "forced" bilingual policies are by no means discriminatory. They only ensure that French speaking flyers will get service in their language, on Canada's largest airline. It's important to have bilingual services from YYZ and YVR as much as from YUL, because AC works on a hub-and-spoke system. They are many connecting passengers from YUL, YQB and YOW that wants and deserve bilingual service.

As for the ability to relocate from YUL, well, you have been speaking the same old record for 2, 3 years now? Those statements do not surprise me at all and it's by no means "fantastic news" like you say. It will only frustrate Quebeckers, probably AC's most loyal customers.

'Safe


User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16248 posts, RR: 56
Reply 2, posted (10 years 3 months 3 hours ago) and read 7249 times:

The "forced" bilingual policies are by no means discriminatory.

They are indeed discriminatory when 71% of Canadians are ineligible to apply for FA positions because they speak English-only.

It's important to have bilingual services from YYZ and YVR as much as from YUL, because AC works on a hub-and-spoke system.

Who are you to decide what's important for YYZ & YVR? That is arrogant! Let the market place decide. YYZ & YVR have larger Spanish-speaking populations that French-speaking anyway.

They are many connecting passengers from YUL, YQB and YOW that wants and deserve bilingual service.

If they are connecting to an English-speaking city, then there is a 100% chance they must speak English. "Deserve" is a motherhood word anywayv - it means nothing.

It will only frustrate Quebeckers, probably AC's most loyal customers.

Canada's 2 largest air markets by far are YYZ and YVR -- hence these markets are far more important to AC than YUL.

Let the market place rule.










Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16248 posts, RR: 56
Reply 3, posted (10 years 3 months 3 hours ago) and read 7235 times:

Here's the first online article I can find.

http://www.680news.com/news/national/article.jsp?content=n061927A

Clearly, AC should be able to offer language services as dictated by the market place, not a meddling Liberal government.

This Conservative proposal is completely logical. It will help AC achieve greater levels of efficiency; hire staff more reflective of Canadian diversity (who are overwhelmingly English-speaking only) and tap into a larger mgmt talent pool if the HQ relocates.






Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineSafeFlyer From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 627 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (10 years 3 months 3 hours ago) and read 7232 times:

Well, of course, I knew the response would come quickly  Smile/happy/getting dizzy . And it did!
The market place cannot rule everything but that really depends on one's point-of-view. Mine is clear and so is yours. It's just like the election: I'm not a Jack Laton closet fan, you are Big grin .


User currently offlineJjbiv From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 1226 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (10 years 3 months 3 hours ago) and read 7230 times:

The forced language policy is not so much discriminatory as it is inefficient. Inefficiencies are hardly welcome in the airline business in these trying economic times. It certainly gives me perspective on where the U.S. stands on the spectrum of government regulation. It will be interesting to see how the U.S. deals with the growth of Spanish speaking individuals as they become the predominant minority group.

joe


User currently offlineIflyatldl From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1936 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (10 years 3 months 3 hours ago) and read 7218 times:

YYX717: I've always wondered about that myself. Even as a former YULer, it just seemed wasteful to have an entire crew dedicated to speaking French as well as English. I know many F/A's speak other languages besides English and French, but it's kind of like having a Sweedish only speaking flight crew on AA flying LAX-HNL. OR- How many pax flying YOW-YVR(for example) are really going to need the whole crew to answer that one remote French question?  Big grin


Ah, Summer, Fenway Park, Boston Red Sox and Beer.....
User currently offlineWhiteguy From Canada, joined Nov 2003, 788 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (10 years 3 months 3 hours ago) and read 7199 times:
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Only one member of the crew has to be bilingual, not everybody.

User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16248 posts, RR: 56
Reply 8, posted (10 years 3 months 2 hours ago) and read 7189 times:

Only one member of the crew has to be bilingual, not everybody.

Which is still one member too many on routes such as YVR-LAX, YYZ-LHR, YHZ-BOS, YYC-ORD and the other 90% of flights that do not stop in YUL, YOW, YQB or YQM.

but it's kind of like having a Sweedish only speaking flight crew on AA flying LAX-HNL. OR- How many pax flying YOW-YVR(for example) are really going to need the whole crew to answer that one remote French question?

I agree completely. Let's help AC by abolishing all these inefficiencies. The Conservatives are willing to help AC in this regardv -- the Liberals are not.




Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineYegbey01 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1726 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (10 years 3 months 2 hours ago) and read 7168 times:

yyz717,

I disagree with everything you said...... Are you suggesting that poeple would not go to Montreal to work for Air Canada... I wonder how they have attracted their CEO's in the past (who happened to be Americans)...

It's actually a bonus to have bilingual staff....This is a bilingual country... You have to accept the fact that there are french speaking people in this country. This is not an inefficiency, it's a cost of business. If you can't provide such service, don't operate.. but don't call it an inefficiency.


User currently offlineEddieho From Canada, joined Jan 2004, 229 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (10 years 3 months 2 hours ago) and read 7160 times:

In fact, the forced language policy is DISCRIMINATORY... and against the constitution

A/C may be allowed to prefer a bilingual over a monolingual, but it may not prevent monolinguals from applying, nor may they have policies about language...


User currently offlineJetranger2000 From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 230 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (10 years 3 months 2 hours ago) and read 7153 times:

Well, it sounds like there are francophones that take advantage of the bilingual flight crew all across Canada. But it also seems that there are lots of potental employees turned away because they don't speak French. Sounds like a two-way street.

Though isn't Air Canada's headquaters in Quebec?


User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16248 posts, RR: 56
Reply 12, posted (10 years 3 months 2 hours ago) and read 7163 times:

Are you suggesting that poeple would not go to Montreal to work for Air Canada...

Absolutely! Very few English-Canadians would move to YUL simply because of the language issue.

It's actually a bonus to have bilingual staff....

A bonus to who? Certainly not the shareholders. AC is a business -- it should not be a social service providing employment to francophones. Let the market place rule.

You have to accept the fact that there are french speaking people in this country.

I do! Airlines can provide french speaking service in those markets -- YUL/YOW/YQM/YQB -- but it is not necessary at all in other markets.

This is not an inefficiency, it's a cost of business. If you can't provide such service, don't operate..

So are you saying that Westjet, Canjet, Skyservice should shut down? It's not a cost of business when flights from YYC-YVR require French speaking FA's due to a govt directive. It is absolutely an inefficiency, not to mention very discriminatory.




Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16248 posts, RR: 56
Reply 13, posted (10 years 3 months 2 hours ago) and read 7151 times:

But it also seems that there are lots of potental employees turned away because they don't speak French.

Exactly. This is very discriminatory, and arguably racist.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineJetdeltamsy From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 2987 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (10 years 3 months 2 hours ago) and read 7148 times:

i don't live in canada and i don't speak french. i can't see what all the fuss is about.

air canada will still deal with their french speaking customers in french.

it is unfair that air canada is required to operate this way. no other canadian carriers have this as a requirement of doing business.




Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
User currently offlineEddieho From Canada, joined Jan 2004, 229 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (10 years 3 months 2 hours ago) and read 7135 times:

You know, there's probably more asian speaking people in the country than french (at least in toronto)

User currently offlineCaptainGomes From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 6413 posts, RR: 55
Reply 16, posted (10 years 3 months 1 hour ago) and read 7093 times:

The Air Canada Act is a complete waste. There should not be an "Act" at a private enterprise. Either it is a crown corporation, or it is a private corporation. You cannot possibly have some sort of a hybrid structure without having serious issues as a result.

Given that, if AC moves its headquarters, it would move to Alberta most likely, where the corporate tax rates are lower than elsewhere in Canada. For a company the size of Air Canada, the savings could be beneficial. However, I'll disagree with Neil on the talent issue, because I feel that top management, who set the strategy for the company, come from wherever, and that is based more on compensation, and other factors, rather than where the company is based in. Even being based in Montreal, a large portion of management is sourced from Toronto, and a number of other places.



"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
User currently offlineEzycrew From Spain, joined Oct 2001, 460 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (10 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 7051 times:

Discriminatory?????? Come on!!!! Then I guess you assume that it would be okay to hire f/a's in YUL who only speak French??

We have the same policies here at LX. As the national airline of a multi-lingual country, f/a's MUST speak German, French and English. Most speak Italian and other languages as well.
What sets Canada apart from the US, among other things, is that it has a strong English and French cultural history. Air Canada being the national airline of Canada, and taypayers from all Provinces having to support the bankrupt carrier, I think it's only fair that its staff represents the cultural values and differences of most Canadians.

Being an f/a is not for everyone. You must be en open-minded individual and you must be able to communicate in your passengers main languages. If you can't speak 2 or 3 languages, then apply for another position or learn! I've done it, 1000's of people have done it... it's not so hard!


User currently offlineTolosy From Luxembourg, joined Oct 2003, 357 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (10 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 7038 times:



Ezycrew, well said!

One of the strenghts of Canada (there are many more of course) is your bilingual culture. I have flown AC many times between canada and California and I really appreciated the fact that service was bilingual. I speak both french and english but many passengers on these flights do not speak english but a latin language, therefore they all appreciate the announcement in French.

Some should bear in mind that AC is an international airline and that all the passengers do not speak english. Cabin annoucement should be in 2 languages at least. I am not saying that the second announcement should be in french. But in Canada, a second announcement in French seems more apropriate. Not only french people would understand it but also most of the people from latin speaking countries.

All airlines should be able to commicate in two or three languages at least. As mentionned by Ezycrew, it is a requirement for FA.


User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16248 posts, RR: 56
Reply 19, posted (10 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 7021 times:

Then I guess you assume that it would be okay to hire f/a's in YUL who only speak French??

Sure, but they would be restricted to YUL-CDG/POP/YQB.

As the national airline of a multi-lingual country, f/a's MUST speak German, French and English.

Canada is different from Luxembourg. Canada is basically an English-speaking country with a French-speaking minority.

Air Canada being the national airline of Canada, and taypayers from all Provinces having to support the bankrupt carrier, I think it's only fair that its staff represents the cultural values and differences of most Canadians.

You made several bad assumptions here:
1. AC is not a "national airline". Canada does not have a "national airline". AC is merely the largest of several private sector carriers in Canada.
2. Taxpayers no longer support AC.
3. For AC to represent the "cultural values and differences of most Canadians" would mean that most FA's SHOULD speak English-only. A trip on AC now suggests that Canada is a French-speaking country populated mostly by white pur laine Quebecois, based on the FA demographics. The hiring/staffing policies of AC are as discriminatory as those of SAA during the apartheid era when only white FA were hired.







Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16248 posts, RR: 56
Reply 20, posted (10 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 7004 times:

All airlines should be able to commicate in two or three languages at least. As mentionned by Ezycrew, it is a requirement for FA.

Then I guess every single US carrier and Canadian carrier should shut down since the FA's largely speak only English (except AC). Hate to burst your bubble but North America is an English world. English is the sole lingua franca here. English is the only requirement for any job in almost all North America, save AC FA's which is ridiculous.

many passengers on these flights do not speak english

In North America? NO way -- virtually all pax speak English. Save the odd traveller from elsewhere.

I have flown AC many times between canada and California and I really appreciated the fact that service was bilingual.

Well, that's nice but that "bilingual appreciation" discriminates against the English majority in Canada.






Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineEzycrew From Spain, joined Oct 2001, 460 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (10 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 7005 times:

717 :

LX is not from Luxemburg...it's Swiss International airlines and Switzerland is not that different from Canada when it comes to national languages.

French speakers to be restricted to YUL-YQB/POP/CDG flights??? What??? that's BS!!! Then English speaking f/a's should only be allowed cross-borders and UK flights, too????

Air Canada not the national carrier of Canada? What??!! Just because it has been privatized doesn't mean it's not your national airline! AC was built into a flag carrier for the last 70 years and wouldn't be here today if it wasn't for Canadian politicians protecting it and killing the competition until the past 5 or 10 years.

I've been to Canada often, and have both English and French speaking friends there. I know very well the kind of hate both sides have for the other. This exists too in Switzerland and Belgium, for example.
But you must be careful when you compare AC hiring policies with Apartheid in South Africa. That comment, particularly, is totally out of proportion, and may be totally offending to those who really suffer from racism.


User currently offlineEzycrew From Spain, joined Oct 2001, 460 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (10 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 6996 times:

Yyz717

You're right,
most North American flight attendants have extremely mediocre, if non-existent language skills.
Except AC. Which puts it in a league above the rest, thanks to it's bilingual policy.


User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16248 posts, RR: 56
Reply 23, posted (10 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 6980 times:

But you must be careful when you compare AC hiring policies with Apartheid in South Africa. That comment, particularly, is totally out of proportion, and may be totally offending to those who really suffer from racism.

I stand by my comment. Since AC is forced to hire E/F FA's and so few English Canadians speak French, an overwhelming proportion of AC FA's are white pur laine Quebecois.

AC's largest hub is YYZ -- perhaps 5% of YYZ residents speak French, yet the other 95% of YYZ residents are ineligible to work as AC FA's at the YYZ hub due to their lack of French. Hence, a high proportion of YYZ-based FA's are pur laine Quebecois. This is discrimination and racist. This is no different than the white-only hiring practices of SAA during Apartheid.

Vote CONSERVATIVE -- put an end to this discrimination, and help AC be a more efficient carrier.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16248 posts, RR: 56
Reply 24, posted (10 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 6974 times:

most North American flight attendants have extremely mediocre, if non-existent language skills. Except AC. Which puts it in a league above the rest, thanks to it's bilingual policy.

Well, that forced bilingual policy is one of many factors that has driven AC into bankruptcy.

Let the market place rule.




Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
25 Lj : most North American flight attendants have extremely mediocre, if non-existent language skills. Except AC. Which puts it in a league above the rest, t
26 Yyz717 : Okay, explain to me why the policy has driven AC into bankruptcy. It is just one of many factors that has increased inefficiency for AC. AC has to tra
27 Nickofatlanta : Reply 7 notes that only one FA on each flight needs to speak French as well as English. If this is correct, I do not understand what the big fuss is.
28 Scf158 : What about WS, dont they have the same policy? it seems to me that there has to be at least 1 french speaker on board WS flights. Perhaps I am wrong..
29 LongHauler : Actually that IS the point. Air Canada is the only airline in Canada REQUIRED to have a bilingual policy, and that is the point. Only Air Canada must
30 David T : Interesting to note that it was during the "Progressive Conservative" reign of Brian Mulroney that Air Canada was fully privatized in 1989. (I think i
31 Flying Belgian : In Belgium there are very strict rules on language use. We must speak fluently French and Dutch our national languages and of course english and this
32 Cayman : This debate should NOT be about the merits (or lack thereof) of wildly politically correct Canadian federal language policies-- It is quite simple: AC
33 Aa767400 : Yyz717, It's PAP, not POP. POP Is Puerto Plata, Dominican Republic. PAP Is Port au Prince, Haiti, where they speak French. Jjbiv, Hispanic Spanish spe
34 NorthStarDC4M : Well... in a few ways, you are right, however you are also very wrong... 1st off, many of you seem to think Quebec is the only area in Canada where pe
35 FLYYUL : This thread, once again, is complete rubbish. Its complete conservative navel-gazing, a political movement that is almost extinct around the world, ex
36 Cayman : NorthStarDC4M It is not clear who you are directing your comments at--? However I for one am well aware that there is a large French presence in North
37 Skyteam10001 : Honestly I don't want to even give my opinion on this topic, which is certainly aviation related but more canadian politics related than anything else
38 FLYYUL : "The ACAct should be shredded and fed to a suitable toilet IMHO. But french has been part of this country for 137 years, i fail to see why its so bad
39 FLYYUL : Vote conservative 1.) Lets go to war in Iraq 2.) Lets disgard of the minorities in Canada, and let the white man rule 3.) Let us reduce taxes, so the
40 FLYYUL : "AC's largest hub is YYZ -- perhaps 5% of YYZ residents speak French, yet the other 95% of YYZ residents are ineligible to work as AC FA's at the YYZ
41 Cayman : FLYYUL The extent to which you reveal your immaturity and gullibility in that post boggles the mind. I agree with SkyTeam10001, this has now turned in
42 FLYYUL : Cayman, Again your clearly demonstrate your extremist views. You clearly think that a conservative govt would help Air Canada, when the exact same par
43 Kaitak : Sacre bleu, zut alors, pepe le pew and other naughty French expressions. Je suis etonne! Ich bien pas un Canadien, may ich spricht both langues perfec
44 Cayman : FLYYUL-- I don't think creating a level playing field is an "extremist view". You have your political views, and I mine--let's decide to respect them
45 FLYYUL : Cayman, You make it seem as if Air Canada is riddled with this crazy bilingualism weight on their back. Your identifying a myth or not a reality -AC r
46 NorthStarDC4M : alright Cayman, here's the flaw with your argument: Without calling me an extremist, tell me on what possible basis the stakeholders of AC ought to fo
47 Cessnapimp : I think the only time that French was a requirement for hire was during the 2002 hiring round. That was done to even things out a little bit, as at t
48 FLYYUL : Lastly, AC sends many a French speaking pax through YYZ, to destinations around the world. Its important that this be remembered.
49 Tolosy : Choose your side. On one side, you want more capitalism and a new legislation which will give more liberties to AC and therefore allow the airline to
50 Yyz717 : The real problem is that english speaking Canadians have mostly poor language skills relying on the power of the english language worldwide. So the bi
51 Yyz717 : AC sends many a French speaking pax through YYZ, to destinations around the world. Its important that this be remembered. Then they must be flying to
52 Planeguy : What about Jetsgo, Canjet and Westjet? Do these carriers have a similar bilingual policy as well? I've noticed their websites have the French and Engl
53 Cayman : Planeguy-- You've hit it on the head--those other carriers are free to implement the policies best suited to them--and in most cases it is correct to
54 Post contains images MrFord : I understand and I'm perfectly in agreement with the idea of dropping this Act. A private corporation shouldn't be forced directly by an Act to offer
55 FLYYUL : I will re-iterate. JetsGo requires 100% bilingual flight attendants Air Transat is mostly employed by French Canadians. Each of these companies are ra
56 Cayman : Fascinating that the best FLYYUL can come up with is to pontificate that "the points made by the anti Act side are irrelevant and once again guided by
57 FLYYUL : "However, you will see that I am called extremist because I have dared to suggest that it is inappropriate for the federal govt of Canada to attempt t
58 Post contains images Flying Belgian : Each of these companies are racist and discriminatory. ??? Because a company wants you to speak at least two languages ??? This is a crazy remark... F
59 FLYYUL : Cayman, Your missing the point. And in any case, my "in favor" of the act opinion is best described in my precedent posting. The issue at hand is bili
60 FLYYUL : "Flying Belgian" -Sir.. I am with you. My post was sarcastic in nature, and meant to show that the same AC criticsm should be applied to JetsGo and Ai
61 JGPH1A : Re: I'm sure SAA said the same thing when it only hired white FA's. No. SAA hired only white FA (and virtually all other staff) because that was the L
62 Yyz717 : And the AC based in YUL.. protecting the french Canadians whom are part of the success and heritage of this company. What success? AC is bankrupt and
63 Bostonguy : Although the Air Canada Act seems to be overly meddlesome, let's cut to the chase here. We all can choose to be bilingual, just as we can all choose t
64 AF-A319 : Yyz 717, why so much anger? why so much hate towards what you name the "pur laine quebecois". You're a "Director of Finance"... don't you think you ha
65 Yyz717 : Bostonguy, I don't disagree with you in principal. My only point is LET THE MARKET PLACE RULE. French is literally a foreign language here in Toronto,
66 Cayman : Set aside the debate on bilingualism--I am all for it--I am not all for the govt usuing private corporations to enforce it-- Can anyone defend the sta
67 AF-A319 : YYz, a personal question... Have you been refused your dream job at AC because you did not speak French? In that case, I could understand your frustat
68 CanadaEH : FLYYUL what you've been saying is a complete joke. I don't give two shits about politics and I could care less about language issues, so take my comme
69 Yyz717 : Care, respect for others, and dignity are core values in Canada. If you truly believe this AF-A319, then you will agree that the forced bilingual poli
70 Trintocan : Come on guys, this vicious debate has become overly political and and extremist to a degree. Why the comparisons with South Africa during Apartheid? T
71 AirPortugal310 : If they are connecting to an English-speaking city, then there is a 100% chance they must speak English. "Deserve" is a motherhood word anywayv - it m
72 Rindt : Tell me - why is a French speaking F/A required on a flight from YVR-CUN? YVR-SYD? YVR-SEA? Do tell. How is it fair for the other 9 provinces and 3 te
73 FLYACYYZ : As a bilingual crew member, it is simply a marketing strength to have french qualified crew members on board the aircraft. As YYZ717 pointed out, livi
74 Yyz717 : As a bilingual crew member, it is simply a marketing strength to have french qualified crew members on board the aircraft. Really? Well AC is bankrupt
75 Bostonguy : Actually, Yyz717, I used to live in Toronto and can assure you there are plenty of companies in Toronto other than Air Canada that require bilingual s
76 FLYYUL : Bostonguy, Very well put. I check monster.ca for jobs in YTO, and could find countless jobs requiring bilingualism. Ah the horror.
77 Chock head : This post is tiresome. FLYYUL you are no better than those you accuse of being an extremist. The act of disagrreing with your point of view brands one
78 Yyz717 : Also, I highly recommend you consult a dictionary for the word "racist". I think you'll find that "race" has nothing to do with the language one speak
79 B747-437B : I'd like to make some points of information here to clarify some misconceptions that exist about bilingualism at Air Canada. a) The AIR CANADA ACT was
80 CaptainGomes : Wow, I made it to the end (or what is the end thus far). Sean, I agree with what you say, and thanks for providing some clarification as per the issue
81 Post contains images ScandinA340 : Hey all, Why do some people claim that the market is an efficient means of dealing with linguistic variations? Surely Canada's unique situation requir
82 CaptainGomes : Why do some people claim that the market is an efficient means of dealing with linguistic variations? Because, as seen above, Jetsgo has all their fli
83 Post contains images Mark_D. : Yeah, much ado about not very much, right here. And all started by you-know-who, too LOL
84 Robsawatsky : The most amusing thing about the arguments here are the continuing perceptions that AC is a "national" carrier and instrument of Canadian Federal gov'
85 Yulguy : Quote: 'They are indeed discriminatory when 71% of Canadians are ineligible to apply for FA positions because they speak English-only.' -- Yyz717 Wow,
86 Yulguy : EddieHo, Do you really think there are more Chinese speakers than French speakers? Come on! 30% of people in this country use French in their every da
87 Yyz717 : Nothing is stopping Anglophones from learning French We don't need to. It's an English world here west of Quebec, and the FA's that serve us on AC fli
88 CanadaEH : I don't see it as discrimination or racism, yyz717. If you apply for an AME job, you are required to have your ticket or license (or whatever its call
89 B747-437B : To apply for a bilingual job, you are required to be bilingual. It's not discrimination, it's a job requirement The discrimination occurs not at the h
90 UA744KSFO : YYZ717, Why don't you and I switch places? It seems as though you would like the US better and I would like Canada better (my grandparents are Canadia
91 YUL332LX : Yyz717, I didn't go trough the entire thread so maybe it's been said before but you got to keep in mind that NOT all AC’s flights have one French-sp
92 Post contains images Iflyatldl : I have to go with Yyz717 on this because: I used to be a Anglophone Montrealer and spoke if at all very little French. I have Dual US citizenship. If
93 Crj 900 : well first the conservatives have to come into power and lets face it, SCARY is an understatement.
94 CanadaEH : Why should there be a Government legislated requirement for Air Canada to provide bilingual services above and beyond those required of their competit
95 Cayman : "scary is an understatement" why don't you just go ahead and let the Toronto Star vote for you by proxy if your are that clever----? It's times like t
96 B747-437B : It's times like this I realize there are morons actually reading and believeing that "news"paper Even scarier is that there are just as many morons re
97 Yulguy : Iflyatldtl (or former Montreal Angryphone), You do not have to pass a French test to reside in Quebec; please don't be ridiculous. If you are applying
98 Post contains images FLYYUL : Yulguy, Join the club of people who are sick and tired of hearing anglo-Canadian and X-Montrealer spit on this city.. its alright, each one of them wi
99 CaptainGomes : FLYYUL, where in this thread does anybody spit on Montreal? The consensus is that AC should be able to stand (and die) on its own two feet, rather tha
100 Cayman : FLYYUL-- Without question a beautiful and exciting city with lots of charm and a helluva a lot going for it-- That said, sorry, I do "NOT WISH I COULD
101 Skywatcher : This is like a recurring nightmare. There are so many falsehoods listed above that I don't know whether to laugh or cry. Yes, the AC act is unfair in
102 YUL332LX : Well, it looks like this whole thread was based on delusion. The Conservative Lieutenant in Quebec clearly said two minutes ago, on live TV, that thei
103 B747-437B : Their intentions are quite the OPPOSITE. If they are elected, it will be STATUS QUO for AC while all other Canadian airlines will have to respect the
104 Post contains images Iflyatldl : yulguy: I'm not spitting on Montreal; on the contrary, I love both Montreal and Quebec dearly as my Dad's family still resides there. It just amazes m
105 Post contains images YUL332LX : How is that the OPPOSITE intentions? Can't you read? STATUS QUO!!!!!!! As in the OPPOSITE of abandoning bilingual policy!!!!!!!
106 B747-437B : Can't you read? STATUS QUO!!!!!!! As in the OPPOSITE of abandoning bilingual policy!!!!!!! Maybe you are having a few problems comprehending the point
107 Yulguy : B747-437, I guess you never heard of "spin" before. It is the Conservatives who try to pretend that they never morally supported the war in Iraq. Harp
108 LH423 : it is unfair that air canada is required to operate this way. no other canadian carriers have this as a requirement of doing business. While it may no
109 Post contains images B747-437B : The truth is that the Tory party in its present form is full of a lot of people who are both anti-Quebec and anti-francophone and they have no sensit
110 FLYYUL : Nuno, The falsehood's being claimed by montreal x-pats such as the myth of a "french placement test" required for immigration, and other bilingual ine
111 Post contains images Yyz717 : However, the fact that that flight attendant that has just flown YYC-YVR can then get on a flight and do YVR-YUL in fact increases efficiency as you c
112 Post contains images Mark_D. : O cielo. Where is one to start, with all the latest haranguing First maybe with you-know-who, the initiator of this scraggly thread. And amusing thoug
113 YOW4NOW : I believe the marketplace should dictate the actions of a company and not the other way around. I wonder if the Liberals and Paul Martin would like to
114 RT514 : Meanwhile, 100% of BQ MP's are 100% French blood....so I wonder who the racist party is? Yyz717, you're a funny guy. You start a thread, attempting to
115 Yyz717 : For an AC Edmonton-Vancouver flight, or Toronto-Calgary or St. John's Halifax it would obviously....be cool too if as many of the passengers themselve
116 YUL332LX : If you bothered to read number 79 above, you would see that the inequity is not that bilingualism is mandated for Air Canada, but rather that it is ma
117 FDH : Guys, I don't believe this, a huge thread based on comments made by a politician during an election campaign... People should know better that what is
118 LTBEWR : In Canada both English and Canadian French are 'official'. French Speaking Canadians make up a substantial minority in that country. Although 90% of t
119 B747-437B : Therefore a national service, an airline, should provide for bilingual services Nobody is disputing this argument. What is being disputed is why the r
120 B747-437B : I doubt that bilingualism restrictions played a significant role in AC's problems. If so, what are the numbers? Did any group or individual actually
121 Hugo : I am Canadian of Asian heritage. I do not speak French. Nonetheless, I do believe in Canada's bilingual policy. It is part of what makes Canada balanc
122 Olympus69 : The falsehood's being claimed by montreal x-pats such as the myth of a "french placement test" required for immigration, and other bilingual inefficie
123 Yyz717 : The falsehood's being claimed by montreal x-pats such as the myth of a "french placement test" required for immigration, and other bilingual inefficie
124 Yulguy : Just a note to the angryphones out there. The whole "I'm a WASP, woe is me" thing is really hilarious. Yes, immigrants in Quebec do have to go to Fren
125 Yyz717 : Yes, immigrants in Quebec do have to go to French school, much like immigrants in Toronto would be streamed in to the English school system. French sc
126 FLYYUL : "Ive spent more time in YUL on business than I care to admit. The relative poverty is palpable as is the general economic decline compared to other No
127 Yyz717 : Lastly Neil.. why arent you ever in Montreal during say the Grand Prix, Jazz festival, comedy festival.... then youd understand a few things about cul
128 LZ-TLT : *LOL* Some of the postings in the thread were really ridiculous hillarious. I would like to see a box match between Yyz717 and FLYYUL. Well, though li
129 Yyz717 : Why such a regulation should be imposed on a private-owned company? And in particular, ONLY on one of many in the same business? The reason is that Ca
130 LZ-TLT : Forced bilngualism essentially means that only Quebecers will be hired (for the most part) I don't get the point. You could be bilingual without being
131 Yyz717 : You could be bilingual without being a Quebecer. It is just a matter of learning the languages. And I think, if you are in daily touch with a foreign
132 RT514 : But there is no "daily touch" with French in Toronto, or anywhere in Canada except Quebec (and remote sections of Northern Ontario and Northern New Br
133 Yyz717 : Wrong, actually. The largest Canadian Francophone population outside of Quebec is in St. Boniface, Manitoba, commonly referred to as Winnipeg's "Quart
134 Skywatcher : If Toronto is the pinnacle of Canadain greatness as YYZ717 suggests, how can you be the best if you are dragged down by the debilitating effects of di
135 Chock head : Some of the postings in the thread were really ridiculous hillarious. I would like to see a box match between Yyz717 and FLYYUL. I too would enjoy tha
136 Post contains images FLYYUL : So Chockhead, What do you know about me...... Lets have a debate.. pick a topic
137 Post contains images Mark_D. : Oh, the saga continues What are you saying? That it's "uncool" if YYZ-YYC etc have NO passengers proficient in French? No Peily! Just that it'd be unc
138 Aviationman : Hi Neil, I've been following this debate for a while now. I can appreciate your point of view which is coming from a Canadian Anglophone. I am French
139 Bostonguy : Yyz717, Race is not determined by the language one speaks. Race is determined by genes. Obviously you are either ignorant of this elementary fact, or
140 Cayman : Bostonguy-- Try to stay objective here--- YYz717 is not the only one that uses the word "race" in this argument, quite the contrary. You would do well
141 Post contains images Uwoaviation : This thread is really getting quite ridiculous so I will just make one comment... I'm a fully bilingual (actually trilingual) anglophone Montrealer an
142 Bostonguy : Bravo, Uwoaviation! Well said. Cayman, it is incorrect for anyone to inject the term "racism" in this language discussion. So, yes, my comments apply
143 Yyz717 : Yyz717,Race is not determined by the language one speaks. Race is determined by genes......Obviously you are either ignorant of this elementary fact,
144 Aviationman : "French Canadians are largely bilingual BY NECESSITY since this is an English continent." Neil, in Montreal for sure (West Island) but if you had a ch
145 Post contains images Mark_D. : Bostonguy, Peily is a rather er...unique fellow, it seems Cayman --You see, in Canada, to even question the forced bilingual policy or to question the
146 Yyz717 : Bostonguy, Peily is a rather er...unique fellow, it seems Nope, I'm quite normal. I'm part of the silent (English) majority who are collectively start
147 Post contains links and images Mark_D. : Yyz717-- Nope, I'm quite normal. I'm part of the silent (English) majority who are collectively starting to speak up about the French hegemony in this
148 Yyz717 : Now, any of those guys want to work for AC-- especially as an F/A-- and they don't or can't or don't want to learn any of those aforementioned variant
149 FLYYUL : The majority of the FAs are anglophone. Air Canada rquires flight attendants to have the knowledge of two lnaguages. English OR French English OR Germ
150 Bostonguy : Could somebody PLEASE tell me what race Francophone Canadians belong to and what race Anglophone Canadians belong to? I'm having a real problem here i
151 Yyz717 : Air Canada rquires flight attendants to have the knowledge of two lnaguages. English OR French English OR German English OR Spanish English or Japanes
152 Bostonguy : Wow, Yyz717! Thanks for "englightening" us about race. Everyone please take a minute to set your watches and clocks back 75 years! Any respsonse expla
153 NorthStarDC4M : -Air Canada rquires flight attendants to have the knowledge of two lnaguages. -English OR French -English OR German -English OR Spanish -English or Ja
154 FLYYUL : Great post NorthStar. *Filler*
155 Chock head : So Chockhead, What do you know about me...... Lets have a debate.. pick a topic I do not really have any desire to debate you. While you at times make
156 FLYYUL : Chock head, Where is your evidence that Deustche Bank and AC managements want the AC Act abolished? For all we know, this is conservative navel gazzin
157 Chock head : Unfortunately you just proved my point: For all we know, this is conservative navel gazzing at an attempt to discontinue "inefficient" minority rights
158 FLYYUL : Equally playing level field... Well if that is really what Desutche bank had said, then they must realize that competitors have more aggresive minorit
159 CanadaEH : Well if that is really what Desutche bank had said, then they must realize that competitors have more aggresive minority hiring policies, such as TS a
160 Captaingomes : Oh c'mon Mark, get the pride out of you and think logically about this. No government act is designed with efficiency in mind, and it was not put in p
161 Yulguy : In regards to the message above, AC requires that its flight attendants speak at least 2 languages fluently: English and French OR English or French a
162 Yulguy : In my last sentence I meant to say international airline, not country. Whoops.
163 FLYYUL : Nuno, JetsGo demands that all f/a's be bilingual, and most of TS's staff is Francophone.... what is the problem?
164 Captaingomes : Yulguy, that is correct. But in 2002 I believe, when they hired a whole bunch of f/a's, there was a requirement for fluency in both official languaes
165 CanadaEH : JetsGo demands that all f/a's be bilingual, and most of TS's staff is Francophone.... what is the problem? Are you forgetting what this topic is all a
166 Yyz717 : All YUL'ers realize that the AC Act is a jobs-gravy-train for YUL residents. That's why they want to keep it. The fact is that AC is thus one of the m
167 CanadaEH : The fact is that AC is thus one of the most discriminatory and racist employers in Cdn history. Ummm, Air Canada is mandated by LAW to provide a certa
168 Captaingomes : JetsGo demands that all f/a's be bilingual, and most of TS's staff is Francophone.... what is the problem? Brandon did a good job answering that. And
169 FLYYUL : Well isnt it sad. Despite all the statistics provided in this thread (the majority of AC F/a's being from Ontario and current new hire policies)... pe
170 CanadaEH : The fact is Air Canada hires anybody with a relevant 2nd language for their ops. I've asked it before, I'll ask it again: Are you in favour of The Act
171 Russophile : I haven't read everything here -- just too much to read. But Yyz717, your laws are very similar to our own laws here, except you have an official bili
172 Matt : I've been following this thread for some time now... and I must admit that my first instinct was to dismiss it for one reason: an extremist position i
173 FLYYUL : CanadaEh. It doesnt matter what my position is. Nothing would change with or without this act, because AC is simply following the marketplace, which i
174 Yyz717 : Its very sad to see the anti-Quebec bias on this board, you would think Canadians would be proud of having a bilingual and tolerant society. Canada is
175 Matt : Racist views such as Matt are also a fact of life. The fact remains that 71% of Cdns only speak English, and over 90% of AC's seat capacity is to Eng
176 FLYYUL : Well id rather not vote for a party that wants to send troops to iraq, discriminate against free choice (homosexuality and abortion), and propose righ
177 Post contains images Yyz717 : As I had suspected, it is not possible to have an intelligent discussion with YYZ717. Translation: I'm not going to play with anyone who does not agre
178 Matt : To FLYYUL... Yes, I know all about neo-cons, minorities, etc. That's my object of study. But YYZ717's comments go waaaay beyond that. What is striking
179 Yyz717 : It's not fear Matt, it's confidence. Confidence that common sense, efficiency and a level playing field will ultimately win out. Given the zero-skill
180 RT514 : Racist views such as Matt are also a fact of life. Matt, take Yyz717's comment with a grain of salt. In my opinion, his credibility is sorely lacking,
181 Matt : To YYZ717! I think you're confused. First and foremost, I'm not an f/a. Read my first post. I worked as an f/a years ago. Second of all, I'm a triling
182 Post contains images FLYYUL : Matt, YYZ717 is an intelligent guy, and source of many debates over history However, I think he pushes it politically. He has a tiny appreciation for
183 Post contains images Bostonguy : What Yyz717 doesn't get is that most people here aren't trying to support Canada's requirement that AC have bilingual flight attendants or that it be
184 Matt : To Bostonguy! Thanks for the intelligent comments! It's refreshing! Obviously, something traumatic has happened to him with regards to French or Quebe
185 Post contains images Yyz717 : YYZ717 is an intelligent guy, and source of many debates over history I like debating on anet. It's the source of many laughs. Im waiting for a meetin
186 Post contains images Yyz717 : How does he explain that over the past 35 years there have been 4 Anglophone Prime Ministers Joe Clark was PM for 8 mos, Kim Campbell 2 mos, and John
187 Post contains links Bostonguy : Ah, St Louis. One of America's "French" cities" About St Louis: "Pierre Laclede Liguest, recipient of a land grant from the King of France, and his 13
188 Yyz717 : While you're there Yyz717 do partake in the rich French heritage: I won't have time for silly nonsense while in STL. I'll be conducting business. In E
189 Bostonguy : Yyz717. Paul Martin was born and raised in Ontario. His family was English-only speaking Anglophones. As for the other 3 serving short terms, indeed t
190 Yyz717 : you easily proclaim Canada to be an "English-speaking" nation due to the fact that 71% of the population speaks English 95% of Canada speaks English.
191 Bostonguy : I won't have time for silly nonsense while in STL. I'll be conducting business. In English of course. I will, however, be querying the FA on the need
192 FLYYUL : This thread is getting ridiculous. *filler*
193 Post contains images B747-437B : we don't take kindly to terrorists in our airspace. We'll bring you down for the slightest misstep Charming. Label Yyz717 a terrorist because he dares
194 Post contains images Yyz717 : So, Yyz717, remember that in America we don't take kindly to terrorists in our airspace. So, in addition to being anti-French, a bigot and a racist, I
195 Bostonguy : Just a thought... if flight attendants should speak English because North America is an English-speaking continent, shouldn't spelling and pronunciati
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