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NW Lands At Ellsworth  
User currently offlineLas757300 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 261 posts, RR: 0
Posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 9437 times:

A NW airlines A319 landed at Ellsworth Airforce base instead of Rapid City. I can't figure out how a large airliner could land at an Airforce base by mistake. ATC certainly would direct them to the proper airport as they approached the Airforce base.

http://www.startribune.com/stories/1631/4837686.html


KMSP
60 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineNwcoflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2003, 690 posts, RR: 14
Reply 1, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 9219 times:

Very interesting. I remember something similar happening on a CO flight several years ago.


The New American is arriving.
User currently offlineNwcoflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2003, 690 posts, RR: 14
Reply 2, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 9203 times:

Here is the flight information from NWA. Kind of funny.

Departs: MSP Arrives: RCA
Gate: C14 Gate:
Scheduled: 11:37AM Scheduled:
Actual: 11:39AM Actual: 12:20PM
Aircraft: A319 Weather: RCA
Status: Arrived

Departs: RCA Arrives: RAP
Gate: Gate: 5
Scheduled: Scheduled: 12:15PM
Actual: 3:30PM Actual: 3:57PM
Aircraft: A319 Weather: RAP
Note: Diversion/delay due to flight crew discretion.




The New American is arriving.
User currently offlineGeg2rap From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 851 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 9180 times:

oops....they are really close to each other within 5 nm. I think rap has runway 14/ 32 and elsworth has 16/34.......319's only run to rap in the summer....a dc-9 pilot could land there in his sleep.
You would figure their charts would offer one help with that...
ps this stuff always happens when I am out of town. Actually there was a recent divirsion there for medical reasons it was UA forgot if it was a 757 or 767...a little big for rap.


User currently offlineTheiler From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 633 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 9164 times:

I would have hoped that there was more to this story. Certain things tend to differentiate an Air Force Base from a civilain field. In this case, the 5000 feet of additional runway, the lack of an intersecting runway, etc.

Considering the approach control is Ellsworth-based (RAPCON), there would have to be a serious breakdown for this to happen.

They probably shouldn't have accepted a visual approach (assuming they did), if there was a chance of going IMC.  Smile


User currently offlineType-rated From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 4990 posts, RR: 19
Reply 5, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 9095 times:

You would think that the localizer and glideslope wouldn't match up with the position of the aircraft and they would notice this before landing. In the days before 9/11 military bases were very touchy about who lands there and when. So I imagine that post 9/11 the military bases are even more aggressive.
I don't think the pilots will get canned, but I do think they will have to undergo some kind of recurrency evaluation.



Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
User currently offlineAsuflyer05 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2371 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 8928 times:

At first I thought it was a charter for Air Force ROTC cadets completing their Field Training at Ellsworth. But then I read the article...

Matt

[Edited 2004-06-21 00:11:33]

User currently offlineFlairport From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 8795 times:

from what i see, it might have been a combination of ATC and pilot errors...time will tell, though!

User currently offlineNWA Man From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 1828 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 8766 times:

I'm not going to make any excuses for the pilots - it was an obvious error, and they should probably be disciplined. But take a look at this:


Ellsworth AFB:




Rapid City Regional Airport:




If these aviators were unfamiliar with the field (very plausible, since NW hasn't been flying the A319 into RAP for long), it's probably very easy to confuse RAP with RCA. Again, this is inexcusable, but I see how it happened.


Regards,

N-Dub



Create your own luck.
User currently offlineCVGpilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 588 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 8748 times:

Its 7:41pm EST and still have not heard any more details on the news about the flight, wonder why? Anyone got more info please share!


Globally Yours
User currently offlineGreenjet From Ireland, joined Aug 2001, 956 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 8685 times:

Not the first time NW have landed at the wrong airport. A couple of years ago a DC-10 landed at Brussels instead of Frankfurt. D'oh.

User currently offlineFlyingbronco05 From United States of America, joined May 2002, 3840 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 8627 times:

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1619461/

FB05

And yes, that one was first.



Never Trust Your Fuel Gauge
User currently offlineNWA Man From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 1828 posts, RR: 12
Reply 12, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 8597 times:

And yes, that one was first.


Real nice, descriptive topic title on that thread too...  Yeah sure

[Edited 2004-06-21 03:04:30]


Create your own luck.
User currently offlineMd80fanatic From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 2660 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 8508 times:

I simply cannot believe the story on this incident. If it was merely a situation where TWO pilots mistake one airport for the other then why the 3.5 hour delay? And why replace the crew with another before the plane reached it's final destination 5 nm away? Does NW keep a standby crew on duty at Ellsworth in case a commercial crew accidently lands there? I cannot see NW driving a fresh crew onto a major airbase where "civilians" are requested to "close their eyes". Wouldn't allowing the already seated crew to make the jump across town make more sense?

I am amazed at how people totally swallow the first breaking news reports....but in the same breath poo poo the exact same style reportage on the day of 9-11. Now that I think about it....it figures!


User currently offlineGarnetpalmetto From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5386 posts, RR: 53
Reply 14, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 8412 times:

The funny thing is, the passengers probably looked out their windows, saw this scene



nd thought "Hey, lookit the 747s!" The Air Force assumed that the passengers knew anything about military aviation.



South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
User currently offlineTheiler From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 633 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 8387 times:

According to the charts, both airports have towers... I'm surprised that Grand Forks tower cleared them to land without ascertaining their position, or having them in sight.

Consider the danger in this.. Suppose a B-1B is on an opposite direction approach to Ellsworth at the same time, talking to the APP/TWR controllers on a UHF-frequency, unknown to the NW flight. NW most likely landed without clearance. A collision with a B-1B (possibly carrying nuclear weapons) would have been devastating.

The security concerns come from the fact that Ellsworth is an active duty base, with bombers on alert. There are things going on that are potentially classified.


User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 8305 times:

>>>I simply cannot believe the story on this incident. If it was merely a situation where TWO pilots mistake one airport for the other then why the 3.5 hour delay? And why replace the crew with another before the plane reached it's final destination 5 nm away? Does NW keep a standby crew on duty at Ellsworth in case a commercial crew accidently lands there? I cannot see NW driving a fresh crew onto a major airbase where "civilians" are requested to "close their eyes". Wouldn't allowing the already seated crew to make the jump across town make more sense?


From a flight ops management perspective, I suspect the SOP (at many places) is to assume that the crew involved in an incident are "unusable" until at least a cursory investigation into the incident can be made. Management can't afford the -situational- possibility of them approving another flight (however short in duration) with the same crew until things can be checked out. For example, (AND I AM NOT STATING OR INFERRING THAT THIS WAS THE CASE WITH THE NWA CREW), if a crew goofed up something because of substance abuse, management wouldn't want the crew to have a second chance to make another similar (or worse) mistake on a subsequent flight. Just to reiterate, I AM NOT ACCUSING THE NWA CREW OF ANYTHING, and am bringing this up only in the context of why some managements may routinely have crews replaced after incidents.

NWA may have had another crew in crewrest at RAP, and decided to use them for the hop from RCA-RAP, and it took awhile to get ahold of them (if they weren't in their rooms). There may have NOT been another crew at RAP, and they had to deadhead one in from from somehere else. Bottomline is that there could be a variety of valid reasons why it took 3.5 hours to resolve things. Neithet do I think that the passengets were made to keep their eyes closed for 3.5 hours, but I don't doubt that the window shades were kept down...




[Edited 2004-06-21 04:25:10]

User currently offlineCopter808 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1082 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 8205 times:

The 3.5 hours was probably to complete the reams of government paperwork. Generally when a civil aircraft lands at a military airport (without permission) there are insurance and hold harmless paperwork that have to be completed.

Believe me, I've seen the circus of paperwork when some hapless pilot landed at a closed naval air station!


User currently offlineGulfstreamGuy From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 646 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 8187 times:

If anyone wanted to know.. it was flight 1152 and it was flown with aircraft N347NB..


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Aaron Mandolesi - Mile High Images



my two cents,
GulfstreamGuy



"If we couldn't laugh, we would all go insane. " -Jimmy Buffett
User currently offlineTheiler From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 633 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 8158 times:

A correction to my last... I meant Rapid City tower, not Grand Forks.
Right idea, wrong Air Force Base / civillian airport combination.


User currently offlineMd80fanatic From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 2660 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 8082 times:

The passengers could have unloaded their own baggage, then walked to the nearest McDonalds to have some lunch. After that they could walk to the nearest theater and catch a movie....then finally walk to RAP .... all in about the same time.

Out of courtesy, why couldn't our military get some freakin' busses in there to transport the passengers to their destination? Oh wait.....that's top secret! Another reason out of many that the military of civilan arms of the US guvment needs a complete overhaul, this is just out-of-control. Power corrupts.


User currently offlineJcarv From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 361 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 8081 times:

Goes to show you that the big boys can make mistakes too. Not just the commuter pilots!

User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 7942 times:

>>>Another reason out of many that the military of civilan arms of the US guvment needs a complete overhaul, this is just out-of-control. Power corrupts.

What on earth are you talking about?

(On second thought, never mind...)  Insane


User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4503 posts, RR: 72
Reply 23, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 7665 times:

Is it me or does this always seem to happen to NW? Remember that DC10 that landed in Brussels instead of Frankfurt a couple of years back? I never knew the exact story about that one, but it was NW as well.



User currently offlineNWA330Tony From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 119 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 7369 times:

Sad to see i love NWA dearly but there is no excuse for this, in a dc-9 ok maybe but in an A319 if you have even the slightest doubt kick on the autopilot and let the comp take it. dumb error which could have been avoided, alot of passengers that didnt have to go through this. Im sorry but with the technology in these new Airbus and Boeng flightdecks these things should not be happening.
Just my .02$


25 747SPA330MD11 : Back in the 70th a Spantax plane landed on Hamburg Finkenwerder, which is around 10 km away from Hamburg Fuhlsbüttel (HAM, EDDH). Due to the short ru
26 Post contains links Geg2rap : NWA has a crew resting in rapid city overnight that takes out the return flight of 1152 (flight 1210 they fly in the last flight of the night before t
27 Md80fanatic : Before I am ejected from this forum permanently, I'd like to say something no one has apparently thought of. With this Airbus on NORAD's radar screen,
28 Garnetpalmetto : Have no fear, MD80, some heads in the tower will roll as well. Methinks some radar operator just "volunteered" for a free trip to the Aleutians. I'd b
29 BillElliott9 : Strategic Air Command (SAC) hasn't deen around since the early 90s. Ellsworth is an Air Combat Command (ACC) Base. I'm surprised MD80fanatic does not
30 Boeing757/767 : I agree with MD80fanatic. I put the blame on the Air Force on this one. In this day and age, they could not tell that an unauthorized aircraft was on
31 Garnetpalmetto : And here's the answer to yet another of his questions. With this Airbus on NORAD's radar screen, the Ellsworth tower's screen, the regional's screen a
32 Squirrel83 : The funny thing is, the passengers probably looked out their windows, saw this scene Three hours sitting there doing nothing while the pilot and crew
33 Post contains images OPNLguy : >>>Strategic Air Command (SAC) hasn't deen around since the early 90s You have to wonder if Jimmy Stewart isn't rolling over in his grave about that..
34 JGPH1A : Completely off topic but regarding the pic of those B1B's - I WANT ONE !!! Such a beautiful aircraft plus can go warp factor 17 while skimming the tre
35 Post contains images Slider : I have to tell you, we're all human and will make mistakes. This much is understood. But regardless of the relative proximity between RAP and RCA, as
36 Geg2rap : Also there are offically no nukes at ellsworth anymore...at least on the record...not since mid 90's AND COME ON GUYS it was a busy time for RAP contr
37 JBLUA320 : Whats the point in making the passengers close their windows? Is there something there that they really can not see? JBLU
38 Garnetpalmetto : You make a salient point about the perceived lack of urgency to intercept this aircraft, however. I'd like to hope there's a legitimate reason as to
39 Geg2rap : FSD has some national guard jets...also I think CYS does correct me if I am wrong...used to be patrol around RAP with the threats on Mt Rushmore...
40 Garnetpalmetto : My bad, Geg - Sioux Falls does have the 175th Fighter Squadron based out of it flying F-16Cs. Cheyenne, however does not. The 187th AS at Cheyenne fli
41 Post contains images TOLtommy : "Whats the point in making the passengers close their windows? Is there something there that they really can not see?" If we told you, we'd have to ki
42 Redngold : In the past I have always thought about the passengers on board and how they have been inconvenienced by a wrong-airport landing. This one, however, m
43 Vorticity : Though probably they couldn't have seen anything interesting from their windows, it's just a matter of policy. I took a picture without thinking on Bo
44 BoingGoingGone : Delta does this too... Don't Ever Land There Again
45 Geg2rap : Vorticity I emailed a high achieving fraternity brother of mine who works the ramp at RAP for NWA/ZK...hope he was working that day to find out Jeremy
46 Grude1087 : (The 3.5 hours was probably to complete the reams of government paperwork. Generally when a civil aircraft lands at a military airport (without permis
47 OPNLguy : Geg2rap, Hear from your buddy at RAP
48 Itsjustme : Just to add some more controversy to this thread I'd like to pose a couple of questions. Who gave the order to the pax not to raise their window shade
49 OPNLguy : >>>Do MP's have any jurisdiction on civilian aircraft? If that civilian aircraft is siting on their military airport, I'd guess they do...
50 Itsjustme : If that civilian aircraft is siting on their military airport, I'd guess they do... Yeah, good point.
51 Geg2rap : Hey OPNL, he was off saturday on sunday he said it was a huge clusterf___ on sat he did say they just kept waiting then asked atc where the plane was.
52 COAB767 : I wonder why the pilots landed there?
53 Post contains images OPNLguy : >>>He said ellsworth had an "experimental" plane on the ground at the time...must be something important anyways they did not want people seeing it, t
54 Post contains images Tasha : Md80fanatic, Why should the military ferry NW passengers anywhere? Why should the Air Force allow these people to disembark the aircraft? They should
55 Ha763 : Looking at the airport diagrams, there is no excuse for landing at the wrong airport. Not only do the runways have different headings, a look out the
56 OPNLguy : >>>The Captain should be immediately terminated - as he has the ultimate responsibility for the aircraft. The FO should also be terminated if he didn'
57 Stirling : Was the FO a guy from Chico? no first names, simple yes or no is cool. He's a good guy, probably embarrassed as all total hell.
58 XFSUgimpLB41X : Ok...so someone up there put "this was an airbus, they should have just let the computer fly it." I dont think you quite understand modern avionics. T
59 Itsjustme : From another thread: Pilots at wrong airport suspended From correspondents in Eagan, Minnesota June 22, 2004 TWO US pilots at the controls of a Northw
60 JMChladek : It has happened the other way too (or at least almost happened). Prior to an airshow about a decade ago, the pilot of an SR-71 on approach to Offutt A
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