Las757300 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 261 posts, RR: 0 Posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 8727 times:
A NW airlines A319 landed at Ellsworth Airforce base instead of Rapid City. I can't figure out how a large airliner could land at an Airforce base by mistake. ATC certainly would direct them to the proper airport as they approached the Airforce base.
Geg2rap From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 842 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 8470 times:
oops....they are really close to each other within 5 nm. I think rap has runway 14/ 32 and elsworth has 16/34.......319's only run to rap in the summer....a dc-9 pilot could land there in his sleep.
You would figure their charts would offer one help with that...
ps this stuff always happens when I am out of town. Actually there was a recent divirsion there for medical reasons it was UA forgot if it was a 757 or 767...a little big for rap.
Theiler From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 633 posts, RR: 1 Reply 4, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 8454 times:
I would have hoped that there was more to this story. Certain things tend to differentiate an Air Force Base from a civilain field. In this case, the 5000 feet of additional runway, the lack of an intersecting runway, etc.
Considering the approach control is Ellsworth-based (RAPCON), there would have to be a serious breakdown for this to happen.
They probably shouldn't have accepted a visual approach (assuming they did), if there was a chance of going IMC.
Type-rated From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 4714 posts, RR: 20 Reply 5, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 8385 times:
You would think that the localizer and glideslope wouldn't match up with the position of the aircraft and they would notice this before landing. In the days before 9/11 military bases were very touchy about who lands there and when. So I imagine that post 9/11 the military bases are even more aggressive.
I don't think the pilots will get canned, but I do think they will have to undergo some kind of recurrency evaluation.
Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
NWA Man From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 1828 posts, RR: 13 Reply 8, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 8056 times:
I'm not going to make any excuses for the pilots - it was an obvious error, and they should probably be disciplined. But take a look at this:
Rapid City Regional Airport:
If these aviators were unfamiliar with the field (very plausible, since NW hasn't been flying the A319 into RAP for long), it's probably very easy to confuse RAP with RCA. Again, this is inexcusable, but I see how it happened.
Md80fanatic From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 2651 posts, RR: 10 Reply 13, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 7798 times:
I simply cannot believe the story on this incident. If it was merely a situation where TWO pilots mistake one airport for the other then why the 3.5 hour delay? And why replace the crew with another before the plane reached it's final destination 5 nm away? Does NW keep a standby crew on duty at Ellsworth in case a commercial crew accidently lands there? I cannot see NW driving a fresh crew onto a major airbase where "civilians" are requested to "close their eyes". Wouldn't allowing the already seated crew to make the jump across town make more sense?
I am amazed at how people totally swallow the first breaking news reports....but in the same breath poo poo the exact same style reportage on the day of 9-11. Now that I think about it....it figures!
Theiler From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 633 posts, RR: 1 Reply 15, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 7677 times:
According to the charts, both airports have towers... I'm surprised that Grand Forks tower cleared them to land without ascertaining their position, or having them in sight.
Consider the danger in this.. Suppose a B-1B is on an opposite direction approach to Ellsworth at the same time, talking to the APP/TWR controllers on a UHF-frequency, unknown to the NW flight. NW most likely landed without clearance. A collision with a B-1B (possibly carrying nuclear weapons) would have been devastating.
The security concerns come from the fact that Ellsworth is an active duty base, with bombers on alert. There are things going on that are potentially classified.
OPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 16, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 7595 times:
>>>I simply cannot believe the story on this incident. If it was merely a situation where TWO pilots mistake one airport for the other then why the 3.5 hour delay? And why replace the crew with another before the plane reached it's final destination 5 nm away? Does NW keep a standby crew on duty at Ellsworth in case a commercial crew accidently lands there? I cannot see NW driving a fresh crew onto a major airbase where "civilians" are requested to "close their eyes". Wouldn't allowing the already seated crew to make the jump across town make more sense?
From a flight ops management perspective, I suspect the SOP (at many places) is to assume that the crew involved in an incident are "unusable" until at least a cursory investigation into the incident can be made. Management can't afford the -situational- possibility of them approving another flight (however short in duration) with the same crew until things can be checked out. For example, (AND I AM NOT STATING OR INFERRING THAT THIS WAS THE CASE WITH THE NWA CREW), if a crew goofed up something because of substance abuse, management wouldn't want the crew to have a second chance to make another similar (or worse) mistake on a subsequent flight. Just to reiterate, I AM NOT ACCUSING THE NWA CREW OF ANYTHING, and am bringing this up only in the context of why some managements may routinely have crews replaced after incidents.
NWA may have had another crew in crewrest at RAP, and decided to use them for the hop from RCA-RAP, and it took awhile to get ahold of them (if they weren't in their rooms). There may have NOT been another crew at RAP, and they had to deadhead one in from from somehere else. Bottomline is that there could be a variety of valid reasons why it took 3.5 hours to resolve things. Neithet do I think that the passengets were made to keep their eyes closed for 3.5 hours, but I don't doubt that the window shades were kept down...
Copter808 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 908 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 7495 times:
The 3.5 hours was probably to complete the reams of government paperwork. Generally when a civil aircraft lands at a military airport (without permission) there are insurance and hold harmless paperwork that have to be completed.
Believe me, I've seen the circus of paperwork when some hapless pilot landed at a closed naval air station!
Md80fanatic From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 2651 posts, RR: 10 Reply 20, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 7372 times:
The passengers could have unloaded their own baggage, then walked to the nearest McDonalds to have some lunch. After that they could walk to the nearest theater and catch a movie....then finally walk to RAP .... all in about the same time.
Out of courtesy, why couldn't our military get some freakin' busses in there to transport the passengers to their destination? Oh wait.....that's top secret! Another reason out of many that the military of civilan arms of the US guvment needs a complete overhaul, this is just out-of-control. Power corrupts.
HB-IWC From Greece, joined Sep 2000, 4450 posts, RR: 73 Reply 23, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 6955 times:
Is it me or does this always seem to happen to NW? Remember that DC10 that landed in Brussels instead of Frankfurt a couple of years back? I never knew the exact story about that one, but it was NW as well.
NWA330Tony From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 119 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 6659 times:
Sad to see i love NWA dearly but there is no excuse for this, in a dc-9 ok maybe but in an A319 if you have even the slightest doubt kick on the autopilot and let the comp take it. dumb error which could have been avoided, alot of passengers that didnt have to go through this. Im sorry but with the technology in these new Airbus and Boeng flightdecks these things should not be happening.
Just my .02$
25 747SPA330MD11: Back in the 70th a Spantax plane landed on Hamburg Finkenwerder, which is around 10 km away from Hamburg Fuhlsbüttel (HAM, EDDH). Due to the short ru
26 Geg2rap: NWA has a crew resting in rapid city overnight that takes out the return flight of 1152 (flight 1210 they fly in the last flight of the night before t
27 Md80fanatic: Before I am ejected from this forum permanently, I'd like to say something no one has apparently thought of. With this Airbus on NORAD's radar screen,
28 Garnetpalmetto: Have no fear, MD80, some heads in the tower will roll as well. Methinks some radar operator just "volunteered" for a free trip to the Aleutians. I'd b
29 BillElliott9: Strategic Air Command (SAC) hasn't deen around since the early 90s. Ellsworth is an Air Combat Command (ACC) Base. I'm surprised MD80fanatic does not
30 Boeing757/767: I agree with MD80fanatic. I put the blame on the Air Force on this one. In this day and age, they could not tell that an unauthorized aircraft was on
31 Garnetpalmetto: And here's the answer to yet another of his questions. With this Airbus on NORAD's radar screen, the Ellsworth tower's screen, the regional's screen a
32 Squirrel83: The funny thing is, the passengers probably looked out their windows, saw this scene Three hours sitting there doing nothing while the pilot and crew
33 OPNLguy: >>>Strategic Air Command (SAC) hasn't deen around since the early 90s You have to wonder if Jimmy Stewart isn't rolling over in his grave about that..
34 JGPH1A: Completely off topic but regarding the pic of those B1B's - I WANT ONE !!! Such a beautiful aircraft plus can go warp factor 17 while skimming the tre
35 Slider: I have to tell you, we're all human and will make mistakes. This much is understood. But regardless of the relative proximity between RAP and RCA, as
36 Geg2rap: Also there are offically no nukes at ellsworth anymore...at least on the record...not since mid 90's AND COME ON GUYS it was a busy time for RAP contr
37 JBLUA320: Whats the point in making the passengers close their windows? Is there something there that they really can not see? JBLU
38 Garnetpalmetto: You make a salient point about the perceived lack of urgency to intercept this aircraft, however. I'd like to hope there's a legitimate reason as to
39 Geg2rap: FSD has some national guard jets...also I think CYS does correct me if I am wrong...used to be patrol around RAP with the threats on Mt Rushmore...
40 Garnetpalmetto: My bad, Geg - Sioux Falls does have the 175th Fighter Squadron based out of it flying F-16Cs. Cheyenne, however does not. The 187th AS at Cheyenne fli
41 TOLtommy: "Whats the point in making the passengers close their windows? Is there something there that they really can not see?" If we told you, we'd have to ki
42 Redngold: In the past I have always thought about the passengers on board and how they have been inconvenienced by a wrong-airport landing. This one, however, m
43 Vorticity: Though probably they couldn't have seen anything interesting from their windows, it's just a matter of policy. I took a picture without thinking on Bo