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Boeing Vs. Airbus War Getting Hotter?  
User currently offlineBCAInfoSys From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (9 years 10 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 7403 times:

Hey guys.. I just read the article from the Financial Times and it looks like Stonecipher is stepping up the rhetoric, turning up the heat on Airbus regarding the subsidies issue. The most intriguing part of the article for me was the 2nd paragraph, with the qoute from Stonecipher. Hmmm.. it will be interesting to see what happens, as Boeing will be taking "unspecified action this year." Hmmmm....

Here's the link to the article: http://search.ft.com/search/article.html?id=040628000946&query=Boeing&vsc_appId=totalSearch&state=Form

And if the link doesn't work, here's the relevant parts of the article:

"Boeing, the US aerospace company, is stepping up attacks on Airbus, its European rival, by reviving the issue of unfair government subsidies.

Harry Stonecipher, chief executive, told the Financial Times: "Just stay tuned . . . Airbus is very successful. By their own recent writings they have more market share than we do, they are taking market share every day and they are more profitable than we are. So the question is, why do they need subsidies?"

Subsidies have been a recurring theme in the aerospace industry, yet both manufacturers have consistently been unwilling to take action. Boeing has intensified its lobbying of US government officials and Mr Stonecipher said he planned to take unspecified action "this year".

He denied he wanted to take a case to the World Trade Organisation, in which the US would seek to have the trade body declare that Airbus was receiving illegal subsidies. "Trade wars are not in anybody's best interest . . . probably Airbus's biggest market is the US market, so I don't think they want a trade case and neither do we."

Allan McArtor, chairman of Airbus North America, dismissed the latest remarks. "It appears as if Boeing is trying to create a smokescreen, as they are so far out of bounds with the 1992 [subsidy] agreement with their Washington State production subsidies and with their Japanese financing arrangements."

Mr Stonecipher said he was "willing to put everything right on the table. Anything. We report on all of our military development stuff that comes in, and we report on it quarterly, officially."

The focus on subsidies comes as Boeing struggles to restore its reputation in Washington, amid a wave of ethics scandals, and to regain its position in commercial aviation. Last year Airbus delivered more aircraft than Boeing for the first time in its history. Mr Stonecipher was confident that the 7E7, its proposed new mid-sized aircraft, would help Boeing regain dominance."


36 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRoberta From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (9 years 10 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 7153 times:

BCA you live in so much hope that Airbus is going to crash and burn.

 Smile


User currently offlineBCAInfoSys From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (9 years 10 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 7136 times:

No I don't.. I really don't. I see you guys as worthy competitors and adversary's. I don't have much love lost of Leahy, I think he's a jackass, I just like to stimulate discussion on the issue when I see newsworthy events.

And you can't say I hate Airbus, when I have clearly stated that I prefer the A320 family to the older 737's (732-735).

Stop trying to make a villian out of me Rob!  Big grin

Steve


User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 3, posted (9 years 10 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 7063 times:

Why can I not shake the feeling that this - not just the thread but the whole proceedings out in the real world - will just lead to a new round in the everlasting p!ssing contest between Boeing and Airbus or the US and Europe?

To some extent I actually hope that the whole issue will finally land in front of the WTO - because then we'll finally have an answer: either both are acting correctly, or one (or both) aren't...

But we'd, for once, finally be beyond this constant blaming the others while not accepting any blame from the other side...

Let's hope that this annoying issue will now finally be resolved!

Regards,
Frank



Smile - it confuses people!
User currently offlineVSXA380X800 From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 421 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (9 years 10 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 7031 times:

Roberta MAYBE he's telling the truth. Just because you prefer a product of another manufacture and you claim you don't dislike the other company doesn't mean you won't have many A VS B wars to come. I don't dislike Boeing ether its just the people who worship it.


4 decks 4 engines 4 long haul
User currently offlineTACAA320 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (9 years 10 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 6886 times:

Definitely both ( A & B) has great products.

VSXA380X800

Can you be more specific when said that "I don't dislike Boeing ether its just the people who worship it."?

Thanks,


User currently offlineMIASkies From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 1340 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (9 years 10 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 6859 times:

How about who cares???

It would be sooo boring to have an industry whosolely depended on one airline manufacture to provide them w/ commercial airplanes.

Airbus and Boeing provide great products for their consumers with great differences and similiarities at the same time.

...my 2 cents!

 Wink/being sarcastic ciao!




Nothing better than making love at 35K Feet!
User currently offlineScottb From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6581 posts, RR: 32
Reply 7, posted (9 years 10 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 6740 times:

I'm just curious...does Airbus pay the nearly ubiquitous European VAT on its products?

User currently offlinePropulsion From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2004, 294 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (9 years 10 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 6713 times:

There is always government aid towards aircraft manufacturers, just like other industries.

Airbus has always been positively submerged in government aid since the beginning, while it is not as though Boeing have not had a helping hand whether directly or indirectly.

Illegal subsidies? God forbid Wow!...Now who has a better track record on this? Probably Boeing, but then you wouldn't need as much help with the billions of dollars worth of orders the US government gives them.

Some will obviously respond with an 'order is order whereas subsidies are different'. Well in my opinion not really. Underlying political reasons still dominant because instances whereby one product is substantially better than another almost always revert to the politically more acceptable/preferable etc. Contrary to any other form of logic.



A bus is a vehicle that runs twice as fast when you are after it as when you are in it.
User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (9 years 10 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 6589 times:

Personally I don´t think the North American market is Airbus biggest, Asia followed by Europe would be my guess?
As for the eternal subsidy theme, why is El-Al a 100% Boeing airline?


User currently offlineUa777222 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3348 posts, RR: 12
Reply 10, posted (9 years 10 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 6579 times:

I would have to say that Airbus is more of a Europe then Asia market. But Alessandro might be correct. I just got back from a two week trip in the EU and was departing VIE on LH and a majority of the a/c were airbus. I did get to see a certain Air Berlin a/c that looked GREAT in the colors it was wearing. Asia I thought was mainly a loyal Boeing buyer..?

When I arrived home (last night) I found a big packet full of goodies from a very kind fellow A.net member (money's in the mail, sorry for being late!!) and there are a few packets/pages all dedicated to how Boeing offers everything Airbus does but also everything in between and at a better quality. I think just due to the new need for LARGER a/c that this is becoming a battle that will never end...

UA777222



"It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark."
User currently offlineCol From Malaysia, joined Nov 2003, 2087 posts, RR: 22
Reply 11, posted (9 years 10 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 6566 times:

Its a good job that the Engineers develop the aircraft and don't get involved in the poor management issues. Step up Harry to make the next ass of himself, followed by Airbus rep next week, and on it goes!!


User currently offlineCalvin99 From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2001, 224 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (9 years 10 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 6538 times:

Asia I thought was mainly a loyal Boeing buyer..?

well.. it is not really true to say Asia is mainly a loyal Boeing buyer.. i think.. i guess we have to go to the specific country..

Japan is mainly a Boeing customer.. as we all now... with only the Airbus A320 makes it way to ANA and A300 to JAS.. so it has to be Boeing

For China.. it used to be a loyal Boeing customer.. but today... China has been operating a large amount of A320s aircraft... A346 as well as the new A330 order for MU as well.. CZ and CA are still mainly a Boeing customer.. although CZ does operation an okay size of A320.. so.. i think it is still Boeing for now.. but Airbus is catching up quick..

Hong Kong... it comes to CX and KA... KA is an all Airbus operator.. while CX currently operates 34 boeing's aircrafts and 39 Airbus' aircrafts.. so both manufacture have a strong presence here.. although boeing has a larger market share here..

Thailand.. used to be an Boeing's fan.. but it has started to buy more Airbus.. today.. Thai has A300.. A330 and they recently anncounced the purchase the A345 and A346.. again.. Beoing used to be the winner.. but Airbus is catching up..

Malaysia.. MAS operates a large fleet of B734.. B777 and B744.. with a small fleet of A332/A333.. however MAS is also one of the launch customer for A380.. Boeing is still the winner.. but Airbus starts it presence in Malaysia..

Singapore... its an all Boeing... with Airbus has a really small presence.. SIA operates a large amount of B744 and B772/B773.. and with 5 A345.. although SQ is also committed to the A380.. however.. boeing is definitely the winner

Down from Singapore is Indonesia.. a developing market.. in which Boeing should be happier here... GA operates a large fleet of B733/B734/735.. and a few months ago.. it confirmed the B772 and B73G order.. on the other hand.. GA also operates 6 A333.. i heard GA has converted 3 A333 on option to firm order.. also there was a talk to convert Merpati to an all Airbus operator.. but the problem is simply that Indonesian operator don't have the money.. Airbus is still very very behind Boeing here

Brunei.. a very small market.. but it used to operate solely B763 and B757.. has started to deviate from Boeing.. with the recent delivery of A320 family to replace B757.. Airbus is catching up here..

Phillipines.. operates a large amount of both aircrafts.. Before the monetary crisis Philipines has planned to switch to Airbus.. with B744 replace by A343.. A333 n B734 replace by A320.. although the whole plan did not complete.. leavin the country with both manufacture aircrafts.. in addition.. 5J has been rumoured that A320 has been selected to replace thier DC9.. so for philipines.. i guess i have to say both manufacture have a presence here..

Vietnam... operates A320 for regional short haul and domestic flight.. while B777 for long haul.. so they r even here..

For South Asia and Middle East.. I am not that familiar with.. but here is my opinion..

India.. one of the most controversial market.. AI.. which planned to order B737NG for short haul and Airbus A340.. for long haul.. but then the order is yet to be completed due to political issues.. Currently.. AI operates A310/B737/B747.. Indian Airlines.. operate 45 A300/A320 and 11 B737 (according to the company website)... therefore.. for india.. i can't really say which one has bigger...

Pakistan.. PIA operates B743.. n B777.. aside from a small amount of A310.. so i has to be Boeing..

UAE.. Emirates operates the largest B777 in the world.. however.. the airline is also the largest A330 operator, A343 (although only on lease) A345/A346 .. the airline is also committed to A380.. so both manufacture is quite even here.. although Airbus is slight the winner here..

Qatar.. an all Airbus operator.. so boeing is out of here..

Gulf Air.. operates A333/A332... A343.. A320.. and only B767 from Boeing.. so Airbus is the winner here..

Israel.. ELAL.. there is no need to go to detail as we all know that Boeing is the big winner..

Saudia Arabia.. boeing is also the big winner.. with a large amount fo B737/B777 and B744


User currently offlineCalvin99 From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2001, 224 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (9 years 10 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 6501 times:

with my all elaboration above.. what i want to say is both manufactures r producing fine and most importantly safe aircrafts.. it would be very not professional of boeing to say it is unfair of Airbus to receive subsidy.. it is not like boeing never receive one

boeing has done something stupid to iberia already.. they should not repeat their mistake..


User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (9 years 10 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 6448 times:

Side note, Air Koryo don´t have any airbus nor boeing.

User currently offlineMD-90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 8494 posts, RR: 12
Reply 15, posted (9 years 10 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 6399 times:

billions of dollars worth of orders the US government gives them.


Boeing has never been "given" money. They have and in the past have had many worthy competitors for government contracts.

McDonnell Douglas
Lockheed
Martin Marietta
General Dynamics
Northrop
Grumman
Rockwell
Hughes
(granted, there has been consolidation into ever larger aerospace firms)


Saudia Arabia.. boeing is also the big winner.. with a large amount fo B737/B777 and B744

And what about the MD-90s and MD-11s?



it would be very not professional of boeing to say it is unfair of Airbus to receive subsidy.. it is not like boeing never receive one

Has Boeing EVER been given money in direct aid by the US government, the way Airbus has? Or provided with loans that they didn't have to pay back if they didn't make a profit? The answer to that is no.


User currently offlineKEESJE From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (9 years 10 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 5844 times:


"It's ironic that Boeing CEO Harry Stonecipher wants to step up complaints about Airbus 'subsidies,' considering Boeing's 7E7 will have up to $6 billion of 'subsidies' from Japan, Italy and the United States (Washington State)," says Pritchard, who studies the globalization of the commercial aircraft industry.

"But there are two major differences between an Airbus A380 'subsidy' and Boeing 7E7 'subsidy,'" Pritchard points out.

The Airbus subsidy is in the form of repayable loans with interest for aircraft development, which is legal according to the World Trade Organization, Pritchard says. The Boeing subsidy, on the other hand, is for aircraft production, which is prohibited by the WTO and which never will be paid back, he says.

http://www.buffalo.edu/reporter/vol35/vol35n40/articles/Boeing.html





User currently offlineTasha From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (9 years 10 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 5703 times:

"As for the eternal subsidy theme, why is El-Al a 100% Boeing airline?"

I know the answer.... it has to do with the superior quality and design of the aircraft. Isn't that obvious????  Big grin

Tasha  Smile/happy/getting dizzy


User currently offlineJoni From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (9 years 10 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 5647 times:

MD-90

"Has Boeing EVER been given money in direct aid by the US government, the way Airbus has? Or provided with loans that they didn't have to pay back if they didn't make a profit? The answer to that is no."

Where did you get this idea from? So far only Boeing, and not Airbus, has been ruled by the WTO to receive illegal handouts. We've been discussing various subsidies Boeing gets here before, and IIRC counting just the overcharges Boeing was going to get had the tanker deal not fallen through plus the money from Washington state gives them, they netted USD 6B in sheer cash injections.

Also EU technocrats have estimated that the value of aerospace subsidies in the US is several times over what European companies get.



User currently offlineMd80fanatic From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 2659 posts, RR: 10
Reply 19, posted (9 years 10 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 5638 times:

I think this eternal battle for "second best" is very humourous ..... keep it up!!!!!!  Big grin



User currently offlineVSXA380X800 From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 421 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (9 years 10 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 5581 times:

Well TACAA320 lets put it this way, If I say what I am going to say I'm will be suspended from A.net for a VERY long time. So lets stay on topic  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

UAE.. Emirates operates the largest B777 in the world.. however.. the airline is also the largest A330 operator, A343 (although only on lease) A345/A346 .. the airline is also committed to A380.. so both manufacture is quite even here.. although Airbus is slight the winner here..

If you don't mind can If I make a correction. Although Airbus might seem the slight winner,to you, doesn't it make sense that if Emirates operates 2 types of aircrafts by Boeing(777/747) and soon to be 6 by Airbus(A330/A340/3-5-600/A380-800) that Airbus is indeed the winner? Even though they have the largest 777 fleet.


"Side note, Air Koryo don´t have any airbus nor Boeing"

Share with us, Tell us about Air Koryo.




4 decks 4 engines 4 long haul
User currently offlineCalvin99 From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2001, 224 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (9 years 10 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 5505 times:

from what i know.. Air Koryo is the national airline for North Korea.. the airline has around 2500 staff.. operates approximately a fleet of 25 aircrafts.. all come from Russia.. (Antonov.. Ilyushin and Tupolev)

i believe the airline serves Macau.. Beijing.. Berlin.. and Moscow..

If you don't mind can If I make a correction
sure.. ur correction sounds reasonable to me..


User currently offlineHailstone From Germany, joined Nov 2000, 408 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (9 years 10 months 1 day ago) and read 5423 times:

@scottb
I'm just curious...does Airbus pay the nearly ubiquitous European VAT on its products?

what do you mean ?

if a company purchases goods (or imports them for that matter), they pay VAT. just like in any other country (US included), you get a VAT refund when you sell or export the goods - this would include aircrafts.
there of course are legal manners of VAT deferrment.

so the VAT levels of 16% in germany, 17.% in the UK or 19.6% in france do NOT affect the cost of manufacturing an aircraft


User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (9 years 10 months 1 day ago) and read 5347 times:

Emirates operates the largest B777 in the world

Even though they have the largest 777 fleet




Considering that EK doesnt operate the first, nor second, nor third, nor fourth, nor fifth, (etc) largest of the world's 777 fleets...

...I'm curious as to why the above misinformation continues to present itself?  Confused


User currently offlineVSXA380X800 From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 421 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (9 years 10 months 1 day ago) and read 5295 times:

So Emirates doesn't operate the largest 777 fleet ? I had no idea how many 777 Emirates operated. I just assume that they have the largest 777 fleet since Calvin99 announced it. So who operates the largest 777 fleet , ConcordeBoy?



4 decks 4 engines 4 long haul
25 SAS330GOT : There is one thing that can be seen here. The American government is going to choose a American manufacture as that creates more jobs and growth in th
26 ConcordeBoy : So who operates the largest 777 fleet , ConcordeBoy? 1) United (53 currently in service, 2 stored, 1 on order) 2) Singapore (52 currently in service,
27 B747-437B : Currently.. AI operates A310/B737/B747.. Wow. Do they know that they have 737s now?
28 Post contains images Calvin99 : i apologize for not getting my fact straight.. n made my post.. i cannot find a way to edit it.. so... i just make a new post here.. yes.. EK does not
29 Post contains links Planemaker : Boeing (and others) not receiving any grants/subsidies... oh, pleeeze! Just read the news. This example is from just one article among several others.
30 Scottb : "if a company purchases goods (or imports them for that matter), they pay VAT. just like in any other country (US included), you get a VAT refund when
31 Mandala499 : "Down from Singapore is Indonesia.. a developing market.. in which Boeing should be happier here... GA operates a large fleet of B733/B734/735.. and a
32 MD-90 : Chance Vought. I forgot to include that one. And if you can understand the WTO's ruling against Boeing (which seemed like a general American indictmen
33 Leskova : MD-90, any chance that you've still got the link to that ruling? I tried finding something on the WTO webpage, but (due to lack of time at the moment)
34 Post contains images Tasha : "To some extent I actually hope that the whole issue will finally land in front of the WTO - because then we'll finally have an answer: either both ar
35 Leskova : Tasha, the problem with that would be that that course of action would provoke nothing but a trade war, with Airbus and Boeing both suffering because
36 Hailstone : @scottB the VAT over here (value added tax) is similar to your US local sales taxes (which vary from state to state, pretty much the way they vary her
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