DENVER, July 1 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Frontier Airlines (Nasdaq: FRNT - News) today announced plans to begin service between its Denver International Airport (DEN) hub and Little Rock National Airport (LIT) on October 10, 2004. The twice-daily service will utilize Frontier JetExpress' 70-seat CRJ-700 aircraft, operated for Frontier by Horizon Air.
Following is the Little Rock flight schedule:
Denver to Little Rock
Flight Number Departs Arrives Frequency
4325 3:20 p.m. 6:20 p.m. Daily
4321 6:55 p.m. 9:55 p.m. Daily
Little Rock to Denver
Flight Number Departs Arrives Frequency
4171 6:35 a.m. 7:50 a.m. Daily
4277 7:00 p.m. 8:15 p.m. Daily
MSYtristar From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 6347 posts, RR: 50 Reply 3, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 5145 times:
I think this could turn out to be a good route for us. Hopefully the people in LIT will take advantage of the service. We shouldn't have much trouble getting 50 pax per flight at least...hopefully more. Goodbye ONT, hello LIT! I know the flight crews will appreciate the LIT layovers for the great bar-b-que at least.
MSYtristar From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 6347 posts, RR: 50 Reply 6, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 5075 times:
Greg, I'm pretty certain that LIT-DEN is not a very big business market. LIT isn't really a big leisure or business destinstion actually. It looks like we're just taking advantage of the relative lack of service from LIT to points West. Sure, you have WN to HOU,DAL,PHX, CO to IAH, and AA/DL to DFW, but that's pretty much it. We'll just see how things turn out.
Dutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 58 Reply 8, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 4982 times:
To be honest, I was rather surprised by the Little Rock announcement, I can only assume that Frontier has indentified an unserved niche market and that there is a profit to be make on connecting Little Rock with Denver and west coast destinations.
Stock1985 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 82 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 4951 times:
Well, so much for no new destinations this year by Frontier. Could this mean that they are looking at starting the Tulsa service they said they were looking into almost 3 years ago now. I definitely know that TUL can support more competition with United's 4-5 flights a day in this huge market. Flights, even with 14 day advance, often run over $500 a piece. Well, i hope Frontier or Frontier JetExpress can fill the void!
Scottb From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6442 posts, RR: 33 Reply 10, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 4920 times:
Forgive me if I fail to see the wisdom in starting service to LIT. There are several cities unserved by Frontier which are a similar (or shorter) distance from DEN and have more traffic at comparable fare levels (say, within about 10%); for example, SAT, TUL, SBA, MEM, MSN, MSO, DSM, etc. I will be the first to admit that non-stop service and lower fares will generate some O&D traffic, but trying to fill high-CASM CRJ-700's with low-yield connecting traffic, at yields largely controlled by WN (connecting through both LAS and PHX), does not seem to me to be a recipe for success, especially in light of the fact that Frontier seems not to have been able to make a go of it on DEN-ONT (or DEN-OAK), which is also fundamentally stronger than DEN-LIT.
Tom in NO From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 7194 posts, RR: 38 Reply 11, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 4870 times:
I agree with Scottb's thoughts. My first choice would have been MEM, followed by SAT.
I'm also a little disappointed by the withdrawal from my hometown airport, ONT. With the recent growth of traffic at LGB, and the other LAX periphery airports doing well, I'm a little curious as to the thought process there. I would also go as far as to say that ONT-DEN should be able to support mainline flights, which would also give UA some good competition on that route.
Tom at MSY
"The criminal ineptitude makes you furious"-Bruce Springsteen, after seeing firsthand the damage from Hurricane Katrina
Mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 23926 posts, RR: 87 Reply 12, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 4861 times:
(i) Presently, here is no service between DEN/LIT.
(ii) UAL has a big presence DEN/SAT, and has recently added more.
(iii) MEM would be another head to head with NWAC, and Frontier has just come out of one of those.
(iv) DEN/OAK was back in the days of Mesa flying. I assume you know what that means.
(v) DEN/ONT was doing okay, but I would guess - stress "guess" - that it was felt the RJ's could be used to better value DEN/LIT.
(vi) DSM has not been awfully successful for Midwest. I believe (?) they have just canceled some service from there.
(vii) TUL, SBA and MSN are pretty much much of a muchness for Frontier compared with LIT.
(viii) A key feature of the LIT service is the connectivity to the Mexican flights. This suggests to me (and heck, i could be wrong) that Frontier has indications from their vacation packagers that there is a market for Mexico vacationers from LIT.
Scottb From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6442 posts, RR: 33 Reply 18, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 4679 times:
Try to book a flight from DEN to ONT in, say, November. I doubt it's actually sold out.
(i) I did mention this, and non-stop flights with lower fares will stimulate *some* traffic, but I doubt the O&D will fill 70% of 140 seats each way per day at acceptable yields. Who knows, maybe they were trying to beat United to the route (Skywest is introducing CR7's as United Express).
(ii) Well, UA's presence on DEN-AUS is comparable to their presence on DEN-SAT, but that didn't keep F9 from adding AUS. SAT is still a substantially larger market than LIT *and* it (like AUS) could likely support service to Mexican beach destinations).
(iii) I wouldn't have picked MEM given the track record of LCC's there, either, but it's not like LIT is an easy market, either, due to its small size and position of WN as the largest carrier in the market.
(iv) F9 has re-established STL which was discontinued as a Mesa city as well. Granted, AA pulled down the STL hub, but I don't exactly see why Mesa's poor performance in OAK would mean that Horizon couldn't do better.
(v) Better traffic/yields from LIT than ONT? I don't see it.
(vi) I'm not saying that DSM is a great performer. I'm saying that LIT is weaker for O&D than DSM.
(vii) What's much of a muchness?
(viii) Maybe, but if CO and/or AA choose to match Mexico fares from LIT, it's much shorter to go to Mexico via IAH or DFW.
Like I said, I don't get it, but I don't work there. Maybe they've got a big corporate customer who REALLY wanted flights to LIT.
FATFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2001, 5742 posts, RR: 16 Reply 19, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 4669 times:
Interesting, I hope it works out.
A bit of a surprise to see LIT since F9 has not started FAT-DEN service; there has been a $1 million subsidy package available for FAT flights. The Fresno MSA has roughly 834,000 people vs LIT's MSA of 622,000.
The retail industry seems to be discovering the Fresno area is not what the analysts have thought as more high end retailers keep planning or opening stores. I keep thinking 1 or 2 airlines might notice the area's upward trends also.
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
GulfstreamGuy From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 638 posts, RR: 1 Reply 20, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 4619 times:
I hope it works out. We (LIT) had service by Frontier (way back in the very early 80s by the "old" Frontier) before to DEN and they lost money because of UA service there... So they pulled out. Then UA pulled out in April 1996 (see pics below) because they lost so much money on the DEN run also. A few years later UA Express tried that route again, and it failed as well. So like I said I sure hope it works out for them. I would love to see Frontier succeed in LIT.
Mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 23926 posts, RR: 87 Reply 22, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 4602 times:
The first - and perhaps most important - point to make is that clearly, Frontier is making extremely extensive adjustments to the Fall schedule, more so than any other year.
Basically, until this morning's news, all we knew about were the cuts and changes. LIT becomes the first new service announced.
(As someone noted above, it was also a mild surprise, given that Frontier had said there would be no new cities this year).
Now, LIT may be the only new city (or not) but it won't be the only new route. If it were, then three or four of the A319's would be sitting around doing nothing. Which (a) doesn't sound like Frontier, and (b) would be an expensive waste of aircraft.
There are many puzzles that have not been answered - yet. Example: what will happen to the 2 x LGA slots when DEN/LGA is reduced to 2 x daily?
Frontier may just give them up, but the slots were a tad difficult to get, so that would seem odd, too. They may assign them to a new city - but can they assign them to a new city? (I am NOT suggesting LIT/LGA).
So - it's difficult to see the big picture.
Specifically, though: LIT is the only new (Frontier) city that is advertising fares to Mexico as part of the introductory deals. Again, this suggests to me that Frontier has information that I don't have.
Then again, who would have guessed that BNA/DEN (even or especially against UAL) would do so well right out of the gate?
I note also that many (most) DEN/BNA flights are already close to full for the last two weeks of November and half of December. There may be a greater population at BNA than LIT, but bigger cities than BNA are not yet showing this level of strong advance booking - except Mexico and Florida.
Which raises the next puzzle - and you have I have crossed swords on this before - how will they get the A319 to BNA for the CUN service?
Answer: we don't know. Or I don't. Yet.
SAT: I have long hoped that Frontier would start DEN/SAT. I have to assume that they haven't because they know rather more about the market than I do.
AUS: AUS gets an upgrade of equipment in the Fall schedule. And - from somewhere - will have to have the A319 for AUS/CUN.
ONT: This was a surprise to me. As I said, I had thought it was doing okay. I don't know why they've dropped it, but, then again, DEN/ONT is a Ted route - and Ted has been trashing fares to keep the load factors up. However well ONT may have been doing, perhaps the economics of the RJ don't work is this lowered fare environment.
MEM: Maybe you wouldn't have picked MEM, but it was in your list of cities preferable to LIT. I'd avoid it like the plague.
OAK: for whatever reason, the Bay area is not especially strong for Frontier. SJC is very good, but SFO is less so. Maybe because of UAL flying hub to hub SFO/DEN?
For personal reasons, I'd like to see Frontier return to OAK. Then again, since there are only nine aircraft in the Express fleet, they can't fly everywhere.
STL: I agree. But it came back as mainline, not express. I also suspect that STL is also part of a larger picture that we can't yet see. STL/CUN suggests this, as well as comments in the DOT submissions for STL/CUN.
General: I checked the government stats. The average fare paid for round trip LIT/DEN (for the last available period) was $418. This compares with BNA/DEN at $407 and OKC/DEN at $351.
Lastly: "Much of a muchness"? An old English term, meaning "much the same." Similar to the PNG Pidgin: "all the same belong different."
NW7E7 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 532 posts, RR: 5 Reply 23, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 4588 times:
What did I tell you guys the other day in some of the other posts. DEN fit in to LIT's route structure perfectly. It will open up part of the west but it will not compete with WN directly. Good Job Frontier!! One question is where will the ticket counter be and what gate will they use, all of them are being used now due to passenger screening expansion???
AA 737-800 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 199 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 4545 times:
I second CoTXDFW777AA's opinion, we here in Lubbock need more service to points north and west. Frontier or United Express out of Denver could do pretty well competing against a few Southwest flights to ABQ, LAS, and ELP. But if you all thought LIT was improbable, LBB gets even less respect.
Civil engineering isn't about making things perfect...just better.
25 MikeTheActuary: I can't help but wonder if part of F9's decision may have been influenced by all the Shelby County, Tennessee license plates you see in the parking lo
26 Scottb: Mariner- Are you sure about those "full" DEN-BNA flights the last two weeks of November? They're happy to sell me a round-trip ticket for about $335 i
27 MSYtristar: It would not shock me to see BNA get upgraded to a 319 on at least one of the two flights based on the performance of it's first couple of weeks as pa
28 Mariner: Scottb: I didn't say the BNA flights were full. I said "close to full". This happens when Frontier takes away the "special fare available" flag on tho
29 Scottb: DEN-ANC operates as a red-eye southbound, so the seasonal end of the route really only frees up a few (5-6 at most) hours for an A319 to operate a cou
30 Mariner: Scottb: There are three Airbi lined up at Finkenwerder (one bear, two birds) waiting for delivery - presumably this week-end. I forget the rest of the
31 MAH4546: Nor do we know if STL/CUN, AUS/CUN and BNA/CUN will be approved, which could also change things. BNA/CUN and AUS/CUN will most definitley be approved
32 SHUPirate1: Here's a solution to the LGA slot confusion thing...what if Frontier routed a daily 319 LGA-BNA(quick turn)-CUN-BNA(quick trip through customs)-LGA? A
33 Scottb: Oh, the CUN-BNA scheduling is obvious from the docket. BNA is just a RON for the A319. Flights are probably operated (if you look at the proposed STL-
34 F9Fan: Did you notice on the 9/26/04 timetable they still drew the MSP-LAX route? As for the two extra LGA slots, from what I understand, F9 basically create
35 Mariner: Scottb: At the risk of flogging a dead horse, the docket specifically states seperate return days for the BNA/CUN service. It does not go so for the S
36 Johnboy: If LIT, why not SDF? I've always been curious why no one has, AFAIK, tried SDF-DEN out for viability (except in the remote past when Piedmont had nons
37 Dbo861: "(vi) DSM has not been awfully successful for Midwest. I believe (?) they have just canceled some service from there." Mariner~ Just because Midwest w
38 Scottb: Mariner- You are beating a dead horse; you need to look at the flight times as well. Sunday: Aircraft starts in STL at 1425, arrives in CUN at 1935. A
39 Alphascan: Let's not forget in this discussion of "idle aircraft", that in recent conference calls Mr. Tate said aircraft utilization was scheduled to increase 1
40 Mariner: Scottb: Your scheduling is predicated on STL/CUN being approved. Both AUS/CUN and BNA/CUN were approved today. However, STL/CUN has not yet been appro
41 Scottb: "However, STL/CUN has not yet been approved - and may not be." Absolutely true. In which case, they change the schedule around. If necessary, you oper
42 Mariner: Scott: Perhaps (because of different backgrounds) we have a different usage of the English language. I call it "your" schedule, because it is a schedu
43 AirplaneBoy: Hi everyone. I must say I too was a little surprised by LIT, but nonetheless am happy that it's sign that we're still trying new things. I thought tha
44 Scottb: Mariner- Call it my interpretation of Frontier's DOT filings and I think that will nail it on the head. And yes, it's premature to speculate. The poin
45 Mariner: Scott: That's what I mean about the differences in English language usage. You call it "your interpretation". I call it "your schedule." It means - to
46 NW7E7: I would like to see these routes served. SEA-LIT( operated by AS: You could connect to many destinations in the NW and Canada) If not SEA-LIT it might
47 MAH4546: LAX- LIT( If XNA can get that service on RJ's then I'm sure that we could!!) XNA's service is subsidized by Wal*Mart. That is the only reason they hav
48 NW7E7: MAH4546: Hey a person can dream. Does Dallas or Kansas City have one?? If they do, I read an article that stated that they were going to place one in
49 Uadc8contrail: I personally find it shocking that F9 is leaving ONT and letting that two bit airline(TED) to rail road these fine southern california people into pay
50 AirportGuy1971: A brief mention on the ONT situation http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/business/article/0,1299,DRMN_4_3010085,00.html "We've been dealing with far
51 SuperDash: Little Rock high dollar? The market is priced by Southwest. Nothing but low fares already. There is a reason United does not fly this route. The regio
52 Mariner: SuperDash: So many things! (i) Ontario - see above. Ted fares of $58 round trip. If UAL can make money out of that, why then, Ted is just a little mir
53 MAH4546: Hey a person can dream. Does Dallas or Kansas City have one?? If they do, I read an article that stated that they were going to place one in LIT becau
54 FATFlyer: In case you are interested, here are the Mexican Consulates in the US and Canada. Yes it includes Kansas City and Dallas. LIT getting one is nice but
55 Stirling: Heard yesterday on F9223 DEN-SMF: "....and on behalf of your Tokyo based flight crew, welcome to Sacramento, and thank you for flying Frontier Airline
56 FATFlyer: stirling, first things first FAT to Mexico service would be on Mexicana. They have received both US and Mexico authority to operate FAT to Guadalajara
57 FATFlyer: stirling, your other questions. I remember AirLA. In fact I was just reorganizing some of my old schedules, including a couple of theirs, this week. F
58 Klwright69: There seem to be a lot of things going in this thread. Some of talked about how limited service is out of Little Rock. No one has mentioned that CO Ex
59 SuperDash: Mariner....Where did your mom and I go wrong? LAX/MSP...Frontier expected what? A price advantage over Northwest? Northwest was going to ignore Fronti
60 Lono: So.... anyone know how it goes for Frontier DEN-ANC-DEN....???? anyone... anyone...???
61 NW7E7: From what I have heard in the past DEN-ANC was doing pretty good.
62 ERJ170: Just to chime in, I am in total agreement with a RDU-DEN, RDU-LAX, RDU-CUN route... the LAX and CUN are completely unserved and I think would do well
63 Mariner: SuperDash: So many more things! (i) LAX/MSP. I have no doubt that Frontier expected retaliation, although I doubt that expected NWAC to start DEN/LAX.
64 MSYtristar: Mariner, Look for the 2nd daily DEN-MSY to operate on a permanent basis this time around. That's what we're told anyway. The new influx of aircraft ha