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Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!  
User currently offlineN901FRWOLF From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 105 posts, RR: 0
Posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 14100 times:

Well, first thing first. I got canned at Frontier. Personal difference between the IT Manger and me.

But that is not what this is about.

I applied for a CSA job with Alaska Airlines on thier website, and the last question they had in thier evaluation was "Have you used tobacco products in the last 6 months" which I answered "yes". They then informed me that I was disqualified for the position and may reapply in 6 months.

This made me a little angry, so I called up thier HR department and asked about that, and was informed that Alaska Airlines chooses to hire only non-smoking people.

This seemed Discriminatory for me so I looked up Colorado smoking laws (where the job was posted).

This is what i found:

It shall be a discriminatory or unfair employment practice for an employer to terminate the employment of any employee due to that employee engaging in any lawful activity off the premises of the employer during nonworking hours. Colorado Revised Statutes §24-34-402.5 (1990).

though it does say Terminate, this also can apply to hiring practices. I am bringing this up to them now (call back scheduled).


Frontier - A Whole Different Animal (Beach ball - check, Suntan lotion - Check, thong - check)
88 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAa757first From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3350 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 13790 times:

I have a feeling there is some special exception to this, simply because all of the hiring applications most likely have to go through a lawyer before they are posted, but I really don't know.

Good luck,
AAndrew


User currently offlineJmc1975 From Israel, joined Sep 2000, 3296 posts, RR: 15
Reply 2, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 13783 times:

Alaska Airlines wants to maintain of certain level of integrity among their employees. It's no secret that higher productivity and more consistent attendance is a benefit of hiring non-smokers. If it's a habit away from work, it can easily become a habit at work. It's not that they're being discriminatory, they are just trying to maintain somewhat higher standards.



.......
User currently offlineOly720man From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 6816 posts, RR: 11
Reply 3, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 13768 times:

Jeez, what next. Having a glass of beer on 4th July? Aaaaahhhhhh, alcoholic person!!!!!

Not in any way wishing to bash our transatlantic cousins, but this seems ridiculous and really should be illegal. Have the health lunatics taken over??

Does it take 6 months for tobacco to leave the body??

Andy



wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
User currently offlineLonghaulheavy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 402 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 13752 times:

Breakin' the law! Breakin' the law!

Duh, duh-duh-duh, duh-duh-duh, duh-duh-duh-duh

Sorry...Beavis moment there.


User currently offlineScarletHarlot From Canada, joined Jul 2003, 4673 posts, RR: 56
Reply 5, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 13734 times:

I am sure you will be the first person to challenge their hiring policy. In fact, I'm quite sure Alaska started this tobacco policy without regard to its legality.

Yeah, right.



But that was when I ruled the world
User currently offlineScottb From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6793 posts, RR: 32
Reply 6, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 13723 times:

The law does not apply to you, as you are not an employee. For the most part, companies can discriminate in their hiring as they choose aside from what's impermissible by law (i.e. race, age, gender, non-relevant physical handicap, marital status, etc.).

And it's a valid concern for them, given that smokers are more likely to take more sick time and more breaks for a smoke, not to mention incurring higher health care costs on average.


User currently offlineRussophile From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 13714 times:

The company is based out of Seattle (SeaTac to be precise), Washington; so the company policies are governed by the state of Washington, not Colorado.

I don't think US laws are any different to ours.

Just because the company is based in another state doesn't mean that their policies are governed under Washington State laws. Their policies have to abide by the laws of the State in which the employment is -- in this case, Colorado.

If this isn't the case, then it is moot, but I wouldn't foresee it being much different to how it is here, and most other countries in that regard.



User currently offlineMd80fanatic From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 2660 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 13690 times:

Once employed the statute is completely fair. Until then though it is really their decision. Should have earned a few points for honesty.....but in today's world honesty is almost a liability, sorry to say.

User currently offlineBCAInfoSys From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 13694 times:

The company is based out of Seattle (SeaTac to be precise), Washington; so the company policies are governed by the state of Washington, not Colorado.

I don't think US laws are any different to ours.

Just because the company is based in another state doesn't mean that their policies are governed under Washington State laws. Their policies have to abide by the laws of the State in which the employment is -- in this case, Colorado.

If this isn't the case, then it is moot, but I wouldn't foresee it being much different to how it is here, and most other countries in that regard.


I realize that AS may be governed by local laws, but I wasn't 100% sure on how those things transfer from state to state. But I thought I'd bring it up as one possibility. I'm sure AS has done their homework and are in compliance with the law. And for some little drama queen to come around and make a blanket statement like "Alaska is Breaking the Law" is just plain stupid and horomonal if you ask me. This kid needs to get his plumbing checked.. something is obviously not flowing right.  Insane


User currently offlineWedgetail737 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5929 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 13673 times:
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I didn't think there was a law on smoking preference discrimination.

User currently offlineJmy007 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 598 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 13670 times:

I can understand AS reasoning some what. But it does go a bit far, if its a csa position.

But say if I was a tobacco user, but quit 3 months ago, to start a new way of living, and because I was truthful on my application, I was denied a job for those reasons (tobacco user), it would seems unfair, and discriminatory.

Which makes me think, there is more to this story........

"Well, first thing first. I got canned at Frontier. Personal difference between the IT Manger and me. "



Cookies are the Gateway pastry. They lead to Éclairs and Bear Claws.
User currently offlineBostonguy From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 514 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 13615 times:

Well, Russophile, it is different here.

I live in Massachusetts but worked for a company based in Florida. The company chose to treat me as a Florida employee and thus I was not covered by Massachusetts labor laws (however, I did have to pay Massachusetts taxes).

Likewise, the US Supreme Court recently ruled that New York state (and thus any state) can deny unemployment benefits to a resident of that state who is employed by an out-of-state company and considered by that company to be "statused" in the company's home state.

Thus, Alaska Air can refrain from hiring smokers if the position is statused in the state of Washington and complies with the laws there.


User currently offlineJc2354 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 586 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 13584 times:

I would check out the rules and regulations enforced by the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission .

If all else fails, call the tobacco maker (Marlboro, Winston, etc). I'm positive that if anyone knew all the rules and regulations, they would certainly know.

Very interesting argument. I hope you will keep me updated.

Regards (and good luck)
Jack



If not now, then when?
User currently offlineN901FRWOLF From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 105 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 13585 times:

BCAInfoSys-

no injustice is injustice, and I am pursuing it though legal means as well. You were very childish in it self for calling me a whiner.

Teenage drama? Where? I was concise and to the point. No woe-is-me crap, just outrage.

And as for your Seattle comment, incorrect. Companies have to follow local laws where they are hiring. The fact they are based in Seattle is Irrelevent to the Denver hiring situation.



Frontier - A Whole Different Animal (Beach ball - check, Suntan lotion - Check, thong - check)
User currently offlineUSAirways737 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 1026 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 13561 times:

It makes complete since not to hire smokers. AS pays for your benefits, therefore they have to look out for their bottom line. I'm sure their insurance provider gave them a better deal if they were to have a smoke free workforce.

Erik in MSP


User currently offlineSmcmac32msn From United States of America, joined May 2004, 2211 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 13553 times:

I'd love to see the end of this and maybe AS management should get off their thumbs and go down to SEA's ramp and see whats goin' on! Then they can revise this rule.

[Edited 2004-07-03 00:21:53]


Hey Obama, keep the change! I want my dollar back.
User currently offlineN901FRWOLF From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 105 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 13525 times:

BCA, you are violating the rules and making personal attacks.
:::::
just think this kid a little immature and that would be the reasoning for his termination at F9 and for him handling this as poorly as he did.

Case in point: check his profile.

Interests: Aviation, cars, computer, games, cuties, Role Playing games (like AD&D)...umm...guys

I mean, I don't care: what, it, or who you are into, that is your business. But when you make a point of it like that, it just shows that you are really immature and don't know how to act like an adult in this world.

::::
did I say anything like (I don't know let me think of an example) my personal sexual practices in bed? No. I just listed interests. I happen to be interested in guys. The umm was mean as a little levity (as in trying to remember other things).

If you must know of Frontier(which for 2 YEARS I worked there with no problems, and several commendations for my CS skills), the IT managers wanted me to lockstep to HIS way, not just the computers, but down to taking notes on paper instead of using my PDA (which I know how my organizational skills work, I lose stuff if I write it down on paper, told him that, and he yelled at me about it.). And so I did it his way, and lost papers, and could not organise as effectively, and got yelled at for that. Any IT professional knows not everyone goes through troubleshooting steps in the same manner. That is not everything. I just put that prequel line on to let people know WHY I was applying for a job at another airline.

Your personal attack proves that you have no valid argument against this. You merely wish to feel superior by trying to make it personal. As for the title, I could not think of anything more succinct than what I used. Have a better recommendation? I will try to alter it.

to Jmy007: How can there be more to it? I JUST applied online not 2 hours ago.

[Edited 2004-07-03 00:32:08]


Frontier - A Whole Different Animal (Beach ball - check, Suntan lotion - Check, thong - check)
User currently offlineJmc1975 From Israel, joined Sep 2000, 3296 posts, RR: 15
Reply 18, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 13435 times:

Why would Alaska want to change this rule and open the door to substandard employees that would create a bigger financial and cultural drain on the company? The rule makes perfect sense, and if you don't like it, there is no law that says you must work for Alaska.



.......
User currently offlineTcfc424 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 517 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 13412 times:

A lot of companies have taken to this practice, especially in Florida. I am a fire fighter, and if I were to desire employment as a fire fighter in Florida, I would have to become "tobacco free" as they do not hire tobacco users. What is the reasoning? Remember the tobacco lawsuits? People suing Marlboro and the like for cancer because they didn't read the warning labels that said "This product can cause cancer..." That is the reason. If you develop cancer during your employment or retirement, the company wants to know that if it gets sued for causing the cancer that THEY actually caused it, not Marlboro, Skoal, etc. It may not seem like a fair practice (and I don't agree with it) but I do understand it. The companies do it to protect themselves, and as long as they do it uniformly, meaning that it applies to every employee...every applicant, then it is more than likely legal. Since you are unemployed, check out the classified ads...notice EVERY dry cleaner requires non-smokers...etc.



User currently offlineSan2snow From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 36 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 13396 times:

This website talks a bit about why companies can discriminate against hiring smokers

http://ash.org/papers/h220.htm

Here is another article from Orlando that mentions that this has been brought before the US Supreme Court and the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission and won both time.

http://orlando.bizjournals.com/orlando/stories/2000/01/31/story3.html



If you want to improve, Be content to be thought foolish and stupid
User currently offlineTEKELBERRY From United States of America, joined May 2003, 1459 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 13389 times:

though it does say Terminate, this also can apply to hiring practices.

Says who? You can't make your own laws. It clearly states terminate. They cannot terminate you until they hire you.


User currently offlineSmcmac32msn From United States of America, joined May 2004, 2211 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 13386 times:

I'd love to see the end of this and maybe AS management should get off their thumbs and go down to SEA's ramp and see whats goin' on! Then they can revise this rule.

Why don't you reread the post.



Hey Obama, keep the change! I want my dollar back.
User currently offlineGreg From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 13369 times:

There is not really such a thing as getting fired for 'personal' differences--that would be retaliatory on the actions of your employer. Likely your behavior was insubordinate or performance subpar---anyway...you're not there.

While employers may not discriminate on based on religion, color, national origin, etc....they CAN discriminate on education, qualifications, common sense, and chose those employees who best fit their criteria for maintaining a a healthy company (as long as the former are not infringed).

Companies can, and do discriminate against smokers. I applaud them for this effort.

If you want to smoke, go work for Phillip Morris.


User currently offlineSmcmac32msn From United States of America, joined May 2004, 2211 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 13355 times:

Too bad they couldn't see the AS employee with a cigarette in his mouth while pulling up the push-back to flight 21 on 6.28.2004.


Hey Obama, keep the change! I want my dollar back.
25 Aa757first : If you created a fuss about this, even though you might get the job, everyone there will dislike you, most likely, and your work will be very unpleasa
26 Post contains links TEKELBERRY : Why don't you just move on and look for another job? The following airlines are taking applications at Denver. AirTran -- http://www.airtran.com/about
27 Jmc1975 : Another thing....a cutting-edge forward-thinking airline like jetBlue or even AirTran won't be looking for people of your caliber. Your thread made yo
28 N757kw : I would be curios to know the actual reason behind this requirement. If I had to hazard a guess, I think it has more to do with Insurance costs more t
29 LTBEWR : I work in NYC, where you cannot smoke tobacco products anyplace but your personal residence or outside of a building. This includes no smoking in bars
30 Ha763 : If there are employees smoking on the ramp, I would warn everyone that smoking is not allowed on the ramp and if caught there will be consequences. Th
31 L-188 : Alaska Airlines wants to maintain of certain level of integrity among their employees. It's no secret that higher productivity and more consistent att
32 Nearord : I think that the line about it costing more for insurance is funny. They should then also ask if you have eaten fast food in the last 6 months, whethe
33 FlyCaledonian : So you wanted to use your PDA to take notes, etc, instead of paper. Maybe they want them on paper so they can be filed away with other documents, some
34 Md80fanatic : As a private company, Alaska can choose whoever they wish to hire for whatever reasons they can fathom. I mean, it's THEIR company....not a federal or
35 Post contains links FATFlyer : In Colorado, according to GASP of Colorado, it is legal for an employer to not hire a smoker. Their website says: Questions About Colorado's "Smokers'
36 Smcmac32msn : If there are employees smoking on the ramp, I would warn everyone that smoking is not allowed on the ramp and if caught there will be consequences. Th
37 Scottb : Companies can also fire you for being untruthful on an employment application; for example, if you were to falsely say that you hadn't used tobacco in
38 Oznznut : As I was nearing graduation from Cochise College and obtaining my A & P ticket I started to fill out an application for Alaska Airlines. Right on the
39 Antares : Goodness me. When I saw the topic I thought it about not lubricating jack screws on MD-80s or having pilot standards sufficiently high to ensure that
40 Airlinelover : What have we all learned from this post: STOP SMOKING!!!!!!! Chris
41 AirframeAS : Ok let me clairify about what AS drug-free policy is really about: When you apply with AS, they WILL ask you if you have used nicotine products within
42 United4everDEN : I certainly am not going to hire anyone who might smell like tobacco or someone who cannot smoke during work and it ends up taking their mind off work
43 Smcmac32msn : Thanks for the clarification AirframeAS. Too bad I live so far from Chicago or Seattle (Southcentral Wisconsin), or I'd apply for AS. I've never smoke
44 FullThrottle : As an AS intern I got checked 2 weeks ago on my first day for 5 drugs (weed, cocaine, meth, ect...) alcohol and Nicotine. That is no problem for me an
45 Post contains images AirframeAS : I also wanted to add something that FullThrottle reminded me about: AS wants to be sure that they can get many years of service from their employees.
46 Smcmac32msn : I wish our company (Wisconsin Aviation) would adopt that policy...... just to on the grounds, not so much personal life, but on the clock - no smoking
47 OptionsCLE : Smcmac32msn, Amen! I work for Corporate Wings in Cleveland and let me tell you, it can get busy sometimes just because a bunch of guys decided to go s
48 Smcmac32msn : OptionsCLE - Yes it does add up. 1/4 x 10 (days/pay period) = 2.5 hours. Is Corporate Wings at Burke Lakefront or is it at the same place that CO flys
49 N901FRWOLF : Well. To those who gave interesting, informed answers, and pointed out my error, thank you. And the person who posted the AA, B6, ATA job postings, th
50 M404 : Airlines usually do not hire someone only to work in one spot. They must be able to move around the system as the market dictates. Unless this is a te
51 AirframeAS : Colorado Applicants: You gotta remember AS has adopted this policy years and years ago. AS has never had a problem with this legally. This isn't a new
52 HikesWithEyes : Whoever was driving the pushback tug for flt 21 was not an Alaska employee. 21 originates in ORD and ASA is groundhandled by AA there.
53 BigB : This is likely due to insurance reason
54 Btv92 : Hello Marcus,Good luck with the job search,I'm sure you'll find something that suits you well,and by the way,you're not the only one who enjoys "cutie
55 Post contains images Flashmeister : Even if they were forced to hire you, Marcus, you have to wonder if you'd really like to work in such a tobacco-hostile place if you're a smoker. I sm
56 Sevenair : thats strange-sonsideering how blase they are about maintainence-which caused the crash of LAX-a lack of grease-and, you would also be sacked if you q
57 Smcmac32msn : My bad on the 21 thing. It was a long week and I must have had something else on my mind..... I meant flight 22.
58 Smcmac32msn : According to a lawyer friend, what AS is doing is completely legal. Federal law says you can put reasonable exceptions on your employees. Ex: No ridin
59 Flyboyaz : I can understand their view completely...however I disagree with it. I applied with AS a few years ago and got an interview. They asked me if I smoked
60 Cessna172RG : "And it's a valid concern for them, given that smokers are more likely to take more sick time and more breaks for a smoke, not to mention incurring hi
61 Connector4you : ...It's no secret that higher productivity and more consistent attendance is a benefit of hiring non-smokers... Why not going for even a higher standa
62 Gigneil : The bottom line is there are certain statuses that are privileged in the United States, and other than those explicitly itemized they can hire or fire
63 SlamClick : Antares just a word of advice, as you seem to be new here. Even the cheap shot has certain minimum standards. Your post: "When I saw the topic I thoug
64 MidnightMike : Dude You are wrong cigarette smoking is not covered the by equal rights act, a company can consider you ineligible for employment for smoking and dri
65 Smcmac32msn : According to a lawyer friend, what AS is doing is completely legal. Federal law says you can put reasonable exceptions on your employees. Ex: No ridin
66 Post contains images NWADC9 : just my 2 cents
67 Post contains images AirplaneBoy : Hi everyone! Interesting discussion here. What about someone who has a bad liver from drinking too much (though I wonder if AS would investigate why a
68 AgnusBymaster : In order to work for Alaska Airlines, you must have not used nicotine-products during the past 6 months. After you are hired, you can go right back to
69 Ltbewr : My second post on this issue, and I want to note another possible reason for their strict anti-tobacco policy. If I am correct, and from a topic a few
70 Post contains images AirframeAS : According to a lawyer friend, what AS is doing is completely legal. Thats totally correct. And again, its their right. Im sure the folks at AS who are
71 AgnusBymaster : The prayer cards have been around for a very long time. And they are still on the meal trays as of last week. I don't know who's responsible for putti
72 Smcmac32msn : Alaska puts prayer cards with their meals packages don't they? I just got back from my trip to BOI (ORD-SEA-BOI-SEA-ORD) and on flights 21 & 22 there
73 Post contains images AirframeAS : BTW, my compliments to the chef on the Teriyaki Chicken & Rice on 6/28/2004 for flight 21. Im sure LSG SkyChefs would love to hear from you! LOL! just
74 Smcmac32msn : AirframeAS - Do you have a website for them, or e-mail address?
75 AirframeAS : No I dont actually. I'll find out from my HP buddies who are overseeing security for HP at their PHX LSG facility.
76 Smcmac32msn : AirframeAS- Thanks! BTW... I had a great time flying AS and if I ever need to go out west again, I'll be sure to look them up again! SEA is a decent a
77 UAlonghaul : "no injustice is injustice, and I am pursuing it though legal means as well. You were very childish in it self for calling me a whiner. Teenage drama?
78 Jake056 : A company has complete autonomy is choosing its employees. It is perfectly legal to hire only non-smokers. The only exception is if the prosprective e
79 Post contains images 7E72004 : "Breaking the law...breaking the law..."
80 Smcmac32msn : A company has complete autonomy is choosing its employees. It is perfectly legal to hire only non-smokers. The only exception is if the prosprective e
81 Jake056 : If the company doesn't hire you because you're caucasian, THEY'RE screwed because that is prohibited discrimination. If they don't hire you because of
82 Post contains images OPNLguy : >>>Perhaps many are Mormans (Church of Latter-day Saints) 1/ "Mormons" 2/ "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints"
83 Fredmoss : It's a sad, but true, fact that, in today's world, you're much more likely to find people who would stick up for a terrorist suicide bomber, than for
84 Post contains images Slider : My own personal opinions aside about smoking and such, I have some really strong mixed feelings about this matter. On one hand, the libertarian sensib
85 AirframeAS : "no injustice is injustice, and I am pursuing it though legal means as well. You were very childish in it self for calling me a whiner..." Let me tell
86 Smcmac32msn : If the company doesn't hire you because you're caucasian, THEY'RE screwed because that is prohibited discrimination. If they don't hire you because of
87 Coronado990 : My pet peeve...Hippocrates. And I am going to take a shot a being one because I love airplanes. Here it goes...As long as AS is allowed by the governm
88 FlyboyOz : well...there's also a law in Hong Kong. The employers have the right not to hire the new employees/people who are smokers. I mean they are entitled to
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