DfwRevolution From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 2, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 3916 times:
Even though the last confrontation between Boeing and IB regarding the 777 ended in a PR disaster.
Calling the Boeing/IB fiasco a disaster would be like calling Hurricane Andrew a thunderstorm. That was an unprecedented "exchange" between the two after the order was signed. A manufacture backlashing at a customer !?
However.. I don't see why Boeing shouldn't approach IB. If I were Boeing, I wouldn't be expecting anything in return, but you should atleast ask. Heck I'd ask NW if I were in charge of marketing.
WingnutMN From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 590 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3813 times:
DfwRevolution- I thought I read on an earlier thread that Boeing was trying to convince NW to be US launch customer.?.?.?! Something in it about taking the rest of the A330 orders off of their hands to sell them the 7e7. That was probably all rumors, but hey, I've seen and heard crazier things!!!
Any landing you can walk away from is a good landing! It's a bonus if you can fly the plane again!!
Leskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 72 Reply 6, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3694 times:
Something in it about taking the rest of the A330 orders off of their hands to sell them the 7e7. That was probably all rumors...
While Boeing is most likely talking (or trying to talk) to NW about the 7e7, I highly doubt that Boeing sees a lot of A330s in their own portfolio as something they so desperately want to have, that they'll be offering lots of "buy-back"-deals...
Sure, I wouldn't be surprised if Boeing offered the 7E7 to IB -- for full list price.
They probably will - and after that, the negotiations will start... and if Boeing wants to sell the 7e7, then they'll reduce the price just like they will for every other big and important customer.
Boeing, just as Airbus, isn't stupid: both know that they cannot go to an international airline and say "this is our list price - pay it, or get lost". Both have had their respective PR blunders/disasters (Boeing & Iberia, Airbus & American Airlines), but I highly doubt that they'll be crossing those airlines off their "prospective customer list" for good because of that...
Ken777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7525 posts, RR: 5 Reply 7, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3671 times:
What would be interesting to know is if IB was seriously interested in learning more about the 7E7. A strong interest from an airline that loves B so much would be a good indication that the 7E7 is hotter than most people imagine.
Rjpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 9, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3601 times:
I'd say there is a slim chance of ever seeing A330s in the USAF!
Heck I'd ask NW if I were in charge of marketing.
They did! NW was rumored to be one of the US launch customers a while back....There was talk of swapping with the brand new A330s although I can't see that happening. And who knows what might be thrown onto a 777 order a few years down....?
If Boeing builds the plane to expectations, a whole sh*tload of airlines are gonna want this plane. It will repeat what the 767 did in the 80s--Opening up all sorts of new city pairs. With it's increased range and lower costs, the 7E7 could do to the Pacifc ocean what ETOPS did to the Atlantic ocean.
Roberta From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 10, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3523 times:
I know everyone thinks im out to destroy Boeing, but talk of Boeing buying back NW's A330 is just the result of some high up dude dreaming out load. What the fudge is Boeing going to do with 10-20 odd A330's when they've just gone around parading that they're 20% less fuel efficient than the 7E7! Not a good move in anyone's interpretation.
Starrion From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1083 posts, RR: 2 Reply 12, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3354 times:
There is no indication that Boeing is going to have any problem selling this aircraft. With sales likely to pour in over the next couple of years there is no need to engage in buy-backs to convince airlines to accept them.
The airlines themselves will decide when to replace aircraft with 7e7 and can handle disposal of unneeded fleet types on their own.
Unless there are massive number of frames to buy I don't see boeing engaging in too many of these deals with the 7e7.
TrevD From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 327 posts, RR: 3 Reply 13, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3287 times:
Boeing will offer the 7E7 to IB just like they would to any other Customer, although interestingly, IB does not seem to operate anything in this particular gage. They go from the 757 on up to the A340, so they either need something in this size, in which case the 7E7 is perfect - or they don't need a 250 - 300 seat airplane in their network.
If there is a need at IB, I'm sure BA will be glad to sell them the 7E7 but like everyone else, they will need to get in line as my understanding is the 1st 2 years production is almost or perhaps even already sold out. That's well over 100 airplanes and Boeing is facing the interesting decision in having to increase the production rate of an airplane before it even starts.
Iberia340600 From Spain, joined Oct 2003, 804 posts, RR: 15 Reply 15, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3205 times:
Nothing really. Boeing just got pissed off after intense negotiations that IB went with Airbus to replace the 747-200's and then backlashed by putting out a press release in really bad taste. Bad move on Boeings behalf if you ask me.
Phxinterrupted From United States of America, joined Apr 2002, 474 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3158 times:
Perhaps you should tell the whole story? Why don't you mention how IB jerked Boeing around and changed the terms at the last minute?
Regardless, IB is one of the worst European carriers, period. If you don't believe me, just fly on one of their filthy airplanes and try connecting through their hub, where chaos reigns and security is a joke.
BoeingBus From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1588 posts, RR: 18 Reply 17, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3136 times:
I really don't understand what was so wrong with that press release - if I remember correctly it basically said that the 777 is much more capable than the A340 and the only reason IB chose Airbus was due to fact they currently have A340. So what? Maybe they should not have done that... But heck its done... And I am sure both companies moved on from that except for poeple on here...
If IB believes there's a need new airplanes I am sure they will look into the 7E7 - simple as that.
Also, I don't think Iberia is the worst... I have flown IB - not the best experience but certainly not the worst - by far. Now, MAD is awfully disorganized and terrible laid out.
Andrewtang From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 457 posts, RR: 9 Reply 18, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3118 times:
The words used in the press releases sounded like a girl being ditched by her boyfriend when she found out about her enemy being together with her ex.
The words used was pretty strong and it does sound very harsh. Apparently the press release was removed from Boeing site. You can still do a search on it and it shows you a result. But the page for result is now removed.
Thanks to Cache system in Yahoo search. It brings back the original press release.
PANAM_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 3998 posts, RR: 93 Reply 20, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3059 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW COMMUNITY MANAGER
The press release by Boeing certainly isn't in the best interests of maintaining a strong commercial relationship with a customer. That said, PHXinterrupted correctly points out that there is more to the story than a single press release.
Boeing won't "confront" IB and if asked by IB to tender the 7E7 I've no doubt they'd be more than happy to provide an offer. However IB shouldn't expect them to provide any discounts or aggressive financing. IB looks to be going all Airbus and with no pricing pressure from a competitive tender from Boeing they're going to have a hard time buying anything below full list price in the future from Boeing.
Wingman From Spain, joined May 1999, 1855 posts, RR: 5 Reply 21, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3044 times:
I also don't really see how the statement is especially harsh. Was it the right thing to do in public? Probably not, but IB clearly wasted a lot of people's time at BA without ever having any real intention of buying the 777-300ER, whcih I think by all technical accounts (including IB's own analysis) is superior to the 346. In fact, Toby Bright actually asked the senior IB reps if this was just a joke and they assured him it wasn't. In the end, it was nothing more than just that and I can understand how BA would be very upset at going through a completely futile exercise.
DfwRevolution From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 22, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2860 times:
For the uninitiated can someone review the problems between Boeing and Iberia? I'm not too familiar with what had happened.
Basically, IB was giving all the signals that they would go with the 773ER. Then at the last moment, Airbus offered a deal for the A346 that was honestly too good to pass up. Boeing strolls right into the IB press confrence 100% convinced they have the order in the bag only to be handed the most shocking turnaround in recent history. Comparing it to a girl being stood up on prom night isn't that far off.
I also don't really see how the statement is especially harsh. Was it the right thing to do in public?
In the sales world, even if you lose you are expected to kiss ass. Boeing's statements were really unprecedented, it isn't even in thier archives any longer. See Reply 18.
767-332ER From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 2030 posts, RR: 11 Reply 23, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2846 times:
I think IB really tried to be witty in "negotiating" with Boeing in order to get A346 prices lower...but I they've screwed their chances up for a loooooooong time at getting much better, more suitable aircraft from the Boeing company. So yes, I agree with the fact that if IB was to purchase the 7E7, you won't see a deal coming from Boeing.
You screw with a company that has provided great aircraft in the past and given you deals...then you pretty much screwed yourself over. Good one IB!!!
Twinjets...if one fails, work the other one twice as hard!!!
EVA744 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 24, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2775 times:
The press release doesn't flame IB, it points out that more people in the world according to the famous survey prefered flying on 777 over IB's current long haul jet. It implies that Boeing put in a lot of time and effort to sell the 777, only to have IB balk and purchase A346s (as they had some in their fleet already). At no point does it speak badly about Iberia, only about the aircraft they purchased.
In the sales world, even if you lose you are expected to kiss ass. Boeing's statements were really unprecedented, it isn't even in thier archives any longer.
In the sales world, you are indifferent to the sale. You can be disappointed and let others know about the decision, as there isn't any confidential information that was leaked. IB was replacing long-haul jets, if its not Boeing, Who could it be? Tupolev? Industry watchers don't read into things too much. Both companies acted rationally and in their best interests.
IB looks to be going all Airbus and with no pricing pressure from a competitive tender from Boeing they're going to have a hard time buying anything below full list price in the future from Boeing.
Point 1: IB Leasing 744.
Point 2: A Hard time buying anything below full list price? Please, if Iberia wants to buy planes they will walk to the 2 competing candy shoppes and compare Wonka bars and Hershey bars. The better deal gets the sale. Boeing can't have hard feelings about the lost sale. They will do everything they can AGAIN to get the 7E7 sale to IB, because Boeing is a business and they try to make $$$ and the way to do that is to sell planes. IB will look at 7E7, and Boeing will give them a good price. Anything else would be folly.
25 Bullpitt: I've seen some stupid comments on this forum but Phxinterrupted beats most of them Regardless, IB is one of the worst European carriers, period. If yo
26 767-332ER: Bullpitt, Look at things in perspective man. First of all...if the terrorists wanted to use planes against Madrid or any other spanish city on 3/11,
27 Ba319-131: The only planes IB will be looking to add in the near future will be MD87/88 replacemets,most likely additional A320 series aircraft which would make
28 FoxDelta: 767-332ER Yes, security in Spain's airports is a joke, just like it is in the US
29 Bullpitt: No hard feelings 767-332ER its just that I use to work at MAD I don't see the problem. For one t1, t2 and t3 are one after the other, long walk from t
30 767-332ER: Yes, I agree with you, it was a statement made by someone who generalized and definitely made and overstatement. I think if chaos reigned then the air
31 Bullpitt: Weather is hot, but stormy. maybe we can see each other one day in MAD and have a beer.
32 PANAM_DC10: EVA744 "The press release doesn't flame IB, it points out that more people in the world according to the famous survey prefered flying on 777 over IB'
33 Dutchjet: Lets make this simple.... 1. I am sure that Boeing has offered the 7e7 to just about every major airline worldwide, and every smaller carrier worldwid
34 TrevD: I believe what got Boeing so bothered by this incident comes down to a matter of trust, and unfortunately I think Iberia has hurt themselves, both in
35 767-332ER: Bullpitt, I'm down with that...on my next lay-over at Madrid I'll let you know and we can meet up. Will be somewhere around february or march... Rega
36 BoeingBus: This post is getting rediculous... If IB feels like the 7E7 is good fit in their future plan... Boeing would fly to madrid before you know it... They
37 Ha763: Boeing did not put out a press release regarding IB's decision. It was a statement and was in the "Current Statements" section of their news page. The
38 Lalone: First of all I don´t think that Boeing said anything offensive to Iberia in their press release...and they had every right to be pissed at them. Unf
39 Sabenapilot: Has Boeing Confronted IB On 7E7? Like any airline in the world the CEO of IB will have found a rather big presentation folder on his desk, showing him
40 Hamlet69: A few comments: I'm sure Boeing has proposed the 7E7 to IB. They would be stupid not to. However, if it has gone any farther than that, is up to debat
41 Sabenapilot: Hamlet69, It took B. years to get rid of the planes, long after the initial B777s were delivered to SQ and look what SQ did some years later: they bou
42 Hamlet69: "And how long did it take Boeing to get rid of those SQ A340-300s?" A number of years. OTOH, one could ask the question, what did Boeing do with those