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Report On Boeing's 7E7  
User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7917 posts, RR: 12
Posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 7838 times:

Quite an interesting read, covering aerodynamics, materials, commonality and fly-by-wire controls:

http://flug-revue.rotor.com/FRHeft/FRHEFT04/FRH0408/FR0408c.htm

Really a nice aricraft, but I wonder if Mr Gilette's face turned red when he said Boeing had "always taken the lead" and had been "the first when it comes to innovation".  Big grin




I support the right to arm bears
38 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRoberta From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 7650 times:

“MORE EFFICIENT THAN THE A380”

What a bold thing to say considering both of these planes have never flown and one isnt even off the drawing board.


User currently offlineCessna172RG From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 747 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 7505 times:

You know what they say, paper planes can't carry passengers or cross oceans.

I'm not siding with anyone, and even if I'm really not with Boeing, I'll give everything a shot once. I'll decide if I like it or not when she actually flies.

Efficiency or no efficiency...



Save the whales...for dinner!!!
User currently offline7E72004 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3587 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 7431 times:

Cessna...i agree completely. I am going to wait before i start bashing the A380 and/or the 7E7...i think it is possible for both planes to do well so i don't know what the bullsh*t is over. Granted i was guilty of bashing the A380 before but i decided that i am going to just remain fair on both planes until i see them fly and get a chance to fly on both.  Big thumbs up


The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
User currently offlineThrust From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 2686 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 7285 times:

Good approach, Cessna...the Convair 880 was a lesson both companies can learn from...what a great airplane that was supposed to turn out to be  Big grin  Laugh out loud


Fly one thing; Fly it well
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 915 posts, RR: 51
Reply 5, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 7195 times:

Interesting points-

- Boeing is making provisions for a fuel cell APU in the future
- The 7E7 will have a yoke
- The cockpit will not be identical to the 777, but can be configured to be so
- The FBW system will control the flight envelope, but the pilot will still be able to override these limits
- The 7E7 was originally planned as 7-abreast but reconfigured for 8-abreast at customer request very early on, most likely before Boeing announced the project in Jan 2003
- The 7E7-8/9 will share the same wing, the -3 will have a shorter wing with winglets
- The -3 will have a larger tail for more control at slower takeoff speeds and lighter landing gear


User currently offlineIanatSTN From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 577 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 6973 times:

The 7E7 will have a yoke

Thats very intersting, I would love to see the yoke progress into at least one of the new next generation aircraft, and I think its great that Boeing have carried this tradition on. I hope they do this for many more decades of aircraft to come...

Cheers  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Ian@STN



Ian@STN ::
User currently offlineERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6729 posts, RR: 18
Reply 7, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 6901 times:

Perhaps they should have a fly off..

Let 2 groups of passengers ride each plane in succession to see who is the best.. say.. ATL-SYD and back... the long way... That would be the best



Aiming High and going far..
User currently offlineHz747300 From Hong Kong, joined Mar 2004, 1647 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 6852 times:
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I like your idea ERJ170, it could be like the old barnstorming days from the 1920s. Each jet could be used to wow the crowds with aerobatic loops and wing-walkers!!!


Keep on truckin'...
User currently offlineAndersNilsson From Sweden, joined May 2004, 416 posts, RR: 16
Reply 9, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 6499 times:

I'm impressed by both aircraft. They will both push the limits forward in many aspects. Boeing will never sit and be bypassed by Airbus and vice verse.

Anders



Airliner photography is not a crime.
User currently offlineMITaero From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 497 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 6455 times:

>What a bold thing to say considering both of these planes have never flown and one isnt even off the drawing board.

Not really. It's called using engineering knowledge to make an accurate prediction.


User currently offlineSolnabo From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 847 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 5762 times:

7E7 looks more and more like 767-400 IMO, especilly when in the windtunnel, exept the nosepart! Wingtip instead of raked.....hmmm, I dont kow.

Whats you´re thought?

Mike//SE  Big grin



Airbus SAS - Love them both
User currently offlineMITaero From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 497 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 5706 times:

>Quite an interesting read, covering aerodynamics, materials, commonality and fly-by-wire controls

Why do these 7E7 threads inevitably deteriorate into discussions about appearance?

And what do you mean "wingtip instead of raked" anyway? A raked wingtip is a wingtip.


User currently offlineCaetravlr From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 908 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 5600 times:

Although not supersonic, or overly huge, there are many major technological leaps being incorporated into this aircraft. It will be interesting to see the performance numbers, as well as how well she performs for the airlines over time. Thanks for posting the article, it was truly an interesting read. I am now looking forward to seeing how well the promotional efforts at Farnborough turn out for Boeing.


A woman drove me to drink and I didn't have the decency to thank her. - W.C. Fields
User currently offlineSolnabo From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 847 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks ago) and read 5545 times:

Wingtip a lá 330/340/744, that kinda w-tip! The raked is like 777´s...

Cheers

Mike  Big thumbs up



Airbus SAS - Love them both
User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks ago) and read 5495 times:

Surely, Boeing was first with FBW, not. Interesting read that the got technology from the French TGV train, surely need all in-put possible to improve future planes....


User currently offlineAvObserver From United States of America, joined Apr 2002, 2445 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks ago) and read 5452 times:

I always wince a bit when engineers make such fuel efficiency comparisons which can't be verified until BOTH aircraft in question are in service. Nevertheless, it's quite possible, given the program's entire rationale is founded on efficiency, lightweight largely composite constuction and new-gen engine design focussed on fuel economy. The A380 was designed to be more economical than the 747-400 but it's economy is due largely to its increased size, the economy of scale. I agree that Boeing hasn't always taken the lead in recent years but this is Gillette's last position, prior to his retirement, so expect him to tow the company line to the last. If his statement about using 7E7 engines on the A330 vs. using them on a new version of the 747 sounds inconsistent, it's only because the 747 wouldn't be directly competing with anything, except perhaps, an A380 shrink, while the reengined A330 would be. You don't really expect Gillette to be trumpeting the A380's merits, now do you?

User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks ago) and read 5418 times:

I don´t think increased size is the whole story, many new technologies used in
the A380 see this link http://www.flug-revue.rotor.com/FRweek1.htm#EC
about the doors.
I think it´s impossible to compare two different planes with this difference in size and give a fair view...


User currently offlineAvObserver From United States of America, joined Apr 2002, 2445 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 5266 times:

Alessandro, I said LARGELY, not entirely. I'm aware of the A380's 25% composites, 5000 psi hydraulics, more efficient wing with simpler flaps, quiet engines, etc. You're right about it being impossible to directly compare these two airplanes; I was merely reacting to Walt Gillette's posture on their relative fuel efficiency. One concern I do have about the A380 is discussed elsewhere in here; its relatively high weight due to robust structure designed to be stretched. This naturally has some impact on fuel efficiency; how much can't be determined until A380 entry into service.

User currently offlineSandiaman From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 88 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 5227 times:

Technology aside, what you can compare is efficiency. And even predictions can be pretty good.

When you design a larger plane, you expect to get economies of scale (at least until the square-cube law gets you). Airbus is particularly challenged because it is building a plane, not only for the 550 seat market, but also for the 650 seat market. Hopefully it will achieve its efficiency target in light of its weight issues.

But to design a smaller plane with comparable fuel consumption per passenger versus a larger aircraft. ..that is a revolution. If Boeing can achieve this, it will have reversed the economies of scale that typify larger aircraft (although Airbus points out that crewing costs are lower when spread out over more passengers)

If the 7E7 delivers comparable fuel consumption per passenger compared to the A380, remember that it is also delivers better fuel consumption per passenger than the A330, A340, and 777, all larger aircraft.

To noUFO: thanks for the link to the article


User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 915 posts, RR: 51
Reply 20, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 5108 times:

Interesting read that the got technology from the French TGV train, surely need all in-put possible to improve future planes....

I didn't understand your comment or the analogy the article draws to the TGV. The technology they mention is the voltage regulator for the electric systems... basically the circut box. Boeing is using a system very simmilar to that of the MD-90, but hopefully Boeing will iorn out the problems that plauged it. I think it was called Variable Frequency Constant Voltage regulation. The TGV does use this (I think, correct if untrue) but why make an out-of-industry link?

And can you clarify your comment, I'm a little lost.

But to design a smaller plane with comparable fuel consumption per passenger versus a larger aircraft. ..that is a revolution. If Boeing can achieve this, it will have reversed the economies of scale that typify larger aircraft

Bingo !!!  Big thumbs up


User currently offlineLMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 5082 times:

The 7E7 is not the only aircraft using the VSCF electrical system. Airbus is using it on the A380 as well. Having some experience on the MD-90 hopefully both manufacturers will look at the 90 and learn from it. Main trick will be to make the system not as sensitive and more fault tolerant.

User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8045 posts, RR: 8
Reply 22, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4262 times:

Boeing wasn't any bolder than Airbus when Airbus was pushing the economics of their 380, and pulling in over 100 orders before the first plane was built. Nothing different there.

User currently offlineDl021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11445 posts, RR: 76
Reply 23, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3989 times:
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Except that Airbus seems to be stalled for orders on the thing at 129, with 45 of them from a single buyer. The risk actually seems greater for AIrbus, with the projected need for airliners shaping up the way it is.

The A-380 is certainly not a 1-for-1 747 replacement, at actually seems that the most popular 74 replacement is the 777-300 followed by the A-340-600. The A-380 will certainly have some routes where it will be profitable, but the market for the 7E7 is definably larger just in the sheer numbers of aircraft for which it is a direct replacement. 1-fo-1 it will replace 767/753/A-300/A-330/A-342 a/c everywhere. If Airbus does not find a way to dedicate some real money to developing the competition for the 7E it will find itself left behind in the two most important marketplaces...twin aisle medium haul and single aisle (the almost certain follow up to the twin 7E).



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlinePC12Driver From Germany, joined May 2004, 19 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3934 times:
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Surely, Boeing was first with FBW, not.

Correct. And neither was Airbus, so the point is moot. If my memory serves me correctly, the prototype of the General Dynamics F-16 first flew with FBW control systems way back in 1974.


25 N328KF : Actually, the first was a modified NASA F-8C Crusader, first flight in 1972.
26 Post contains images Solnabo : Wasn´t the A320-100 the 1st FBW jetliner in 1987? Mike//SE
27 N328KF : Or rather, the NASA Dryden F-8C was the first digital fly-by-wire aircraft. The Avro Vulcan was the first analog fly-by-wire aircraft, in the 1940s!
28 PC12Driver : N328KF: You are correct. The NASA F-8 was the actual FBW testbed from which data was collected and used in the design of the F-16 flight control syste
29 Post contains images Mikester540 : Yeah and didn't it crash into a line of trees after the computer froze up? and wasn't there a big coverup? hmmm Mike/CT [Edited 2004-07-15 05:11:49]
30 DfwRevolution : Yes, I believe the A320 was the first jetliner to incorporate digital FBW controls. I only made that statement because so many people toss around the
31 NoUFO : Yeah and didn't it crash into a line of trees after the computer froze up? and wasn't there a big coverup? For the 10.677th time: no. What do you mean
32 Post contains images PC12Driver : Planes are flown by pilots, the computers only control their actions to keep maneuvers within the flight-envelope. Your statement reminded me of somet
33 777236ER : Concorde is FBW, and flew before the F-16, A300 and F-6.
34 Post contains images Mikester540 : "Dryden engineers pioneered this system in 1972, with the F-8 Digital Fly-By-Wire aircraft research project. The DFCS concept incorporated an electro
35 Post contains images Tasha : N328KF: "The Avro Vulcan was the first analog fly-by-wire aircraft, in the 1940s!" The Vulcan? The Vulcan is from the mid-late 1950's I think, but sti
36 N328KF : The Concorde is analog, and thus 777236ER's point is invalid. Plus, I'm sure you meant the F-8C-DFBW, not the F-6. Tasha: Aircraft don't merely appear
37 Post contains images Tasha : N328KF: "Aircraft don't merely appear, completely certified. They have to be tested. OK, so the first flight was 1952. That means that design had to s
38 Post contains images Klaus : LMP737: The 7E7 is not the only aircraft using the VSCF electrical system. Airbus is using it on the A380 as well. Having some experience on the MD-90
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