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Independence Air - 16 Daily Non-stops EWR-IAD?  
User currently offlineWindowSeat From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1312 posts, RR: 57
Posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 3826 times:


I was looking for flights on Independence Air for later this month when I found that they are offering 16 daily non-stops between Newark, NJ EWR and Washington Dulles IAD.

Then I looked at other flights on this route and turns out that United and Continental offer 14 flights combined. (7 each) on CRJs and ERJs

Even if the Independence Air flights are on a CRJ 200, they're still dumping 800 additional seats on this route everyday.

Is there really that much demand to sustain that frequency? If there is why aren't CO and UA making the most of it? Seats on all of Independence Air flights three days from today are still selling at the lowest discounted fare of $49 each way. Which leads me to believe that they are not filling up on these flights? Then why so much frequency? What gives?

cheers






I'm all in favour of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let's start with keyboards.
41 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 56
Reply 1, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 3715 times:

I-Airs 16 flights per day out of EWR is their attempt to break into the difficult but potentially very important and profitable New York City market; in addition to the EWR flights, I think I-Air is going to also fly to other NYC airports, including Stewart.

The 16 flights at EWR are for several reasons, it creates a shuttle-like operation out of EWR to try to get a piece of the very high yeild NYC-Washington market (lets see if that works, I have my doubts) and it will feed a lot of pax into I-Airs growing route system at IAD. I assume that I-Air would like to transport some passengers from EWR to Florida (huge market) and California (also a huge market) once those routes are opened up, and with hourly flights out of EWR connection times can be minimized. If the fares and service are right, maybe than can capture a small part of several huge markets.

Time will tell if I-Airs plans and 16 daily flights out of EWR is over-ambitious.


User currently offlineFlyiguy1 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 19 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 3689 times:

Hey Guys,
In the bigger cities we're all about frequency, We wanna make it easier for people how miss a flight. They wont have to wait as long to get on another flight and we're also trying to allow people to pick a flight according to their own schedule and not the airline's. Of course our loads arent full yet but we're doing pretty darn good in cities like EWR, ATL and ORD. The loads are increasing everyday as more and more people are hearing about our low fares. I think we're one of the only airlines, if not THE only, who REALLY IS about the customer first. Its hard to find that in an airline on a consistent basis now days.

Flyiguy1


User currently offlineWolfpacker From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 354 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 3687 times:

There are 14 flights in the RDU-IAD market. That is a bit much. I wonder how long it will last.

User currently offlineERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6788 posts, RR: 17
Reply 4, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 3652 times:

I think the RDU-IAD flights will begin to look a lot better once they get more connecting flights. The prices are right. I just wish they would do some d@mn advertising.. get a billboard! put on a commercial! do something!


Aiming High and going far..
User currently offlineAirAmericaC46 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 590 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3590 times:

I think it's about time to follow the Asian frequency of flights---using wide-body jets! Too many regional jets will cause delays and lots of stress to air traffic controllers! Agree? Disagree?

User currently offlineUA744Flagship From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3511 times:

It's overly ambitious.

Combine that with the facts that EWR is one of the most delay prone airports in the country and that IAD this summer is one of the most congested in the country, and you get an impractical flight schedule.

I know people who have flown this route on I-air frequently (because of the attractive $49 one way fares which are always available), and I too have flown it... the consesnus is average load factors around 30-40%.

I-Air's use of technology is great, its marketing is stellar, and its in-flight product is excellent, but their ground service and ability to handle irregular operations are PATHETIC. The ground staff are clueless, and if you'll look at the history of IAD-EWR flights, cancellations and delays abound.

In fact, one of the people I know decided to take the Acela to Newark instead of his evening I-Air flight as he had tracked some of the earlier flights in the day and seen them cancelled/delayed due to IAD thunderstorms. People were undoubtedly getting stranded as flights rolled over onto each other.

The problem when you have 16 daily flights each way between two unreliable airports is that you're almost sure to get an unreliable airline.

Great inflight product



Crapass reliability




[Edited 2004-07-13 03:55:59]

User currently offlineCory6188 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2692 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3482 times:

Although I-Air might be trying to lure customers to IAD to so they can fly to California and Florida, no offense meant here, but why the heck would someone take a connection in IAD to go to CA or FL when they can just go nonstop on AA, CO, or UA to CA or nonstop on CO or Song to FL? I-Air can't be that great to warrant a stopover.

User currently offlineGSPSPOT From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3105 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3467 times:

Cory6188:

I think the point is that for a much lower fare (presumably), one would take I-air and connect rather than a nonstop on a legacy carrier. I'm not familiar with other airlines serving EWR, and whether they've matched I-air's fares thus far.



Finally made it to an airline mecca!
User currently offlineWindowSeat From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1312 posts, RR: 57
Reply 9, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3324 times:



I-Air is currently banking on superior service at LCC prices. Which may, in theory, be a successful formula, but the delays and other factors out of their hands will not make for a pretty scene in their financial books. Thankfully I get to try them on Saturday July 31st from HPN to IAD and back same day so expect a full trip report.


Usually, business travelers demand frequency, but the airlines can't provide frequency if the business travelers don't fly them. Well, who wants to go first? In this case I think I-Air went first. Whether business travelers will travel remains to be seen.


I don't think it is as much to lure connecting passengers to Califormia, but Florida, Carolinas, I think yes. Inspite of all our theories, not one seems completely plausible to me for the 16 daily EWR-IAD non-stops.

Any thoughts?

cheers





I'm all in favour of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let's start with keyboards.
User currently offlineGSPSPOT From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3105 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3308 times:


MAJOR POINT: Don't delays affect EVERYONE at a given airport, thereby adversely affecting all airlines on a given route? Why is bad weather or heavy traffic necessarily Indy Air's problem???



Finally made it to an airline mecca!
User currently offlineUA744Flagship From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3269 times:

Why is bad weather or heavy traffic necessarily Indy Air's problem???

Because they have made a very aggressive schedule with a buttload of flights between certain delay prone airports the highly trafficked and congested NE corridor...


User currently offlineVoodoo From Niue, joined Mar 2001, 2101 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3240 times:

Actually now would seem to be the time to use FlyI to/from EWR.

Simple math: If Flight A (30-40% booked) is delayed/cancelled, its easy to bump everyone onto Flight B (30-40% booked) which departs, whether scheduled or even also delayed, an hour later. Point is, when the schedule goes out the window, thats when you ask, who's got the next plane out and is there space. Better to keep it in the company, and let the customer know who's going the extra mile despite the weather/ATC delay/whatever.

Compare to another airline's larger more heavily booked aircraft with less frequency. Unless that other airline is also flying at 30-40% in which case if you want to know who will keep flogging that service you ask: which airline is healthy with cash and which is already bankrupt?



` Yeaah! Baade 152! Trabi of the Sky! '
User currently offlineUA744Flagship From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 3204 times:

Actually now would seem to be the time to use FlyI to/from EWR.

Not when they knowingly schedule flights during time periods where delays are a fact of life. If you are a businessperson and you are counting on that flight, well if you're flying I-air, don't count on it.

The flight schedule seems attractive, but it is far from realistic and deliverable.

Their fares are great, but you can't rely on them at all.


User currently offlineLat41 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 479 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 3186 times:

I wonder how the BOS/IAD service is doing in terms of on time performance and loads. That is an extemely busy corridor as well and later this Summer there will be 17 more in that airspace flying to Providence and Manchester.
I do, however wish them well.


User currently offlineDCAYOW From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 605 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 3183 times:

Who would have guessed ten years ago that Baltimore could support 12 737 flights a day to Providence...

The principle is the same and at significantly less capacity than the 737. The only problem I see is that they never had an opportunity to "grow" the market like Southwest, they had to come in big, which means they will probably loose a lot at the beginning. War of attrition.




Retorne ao céu...
User currently offlineNearord From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 185 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 3166 times:

UA744Flagship

Thank you for the kind words about the product, we hope to keep the serivce level the same way for years to come.

"The ground staff are clueless, and if you'll look at the history of IAD-EWR flights, cancellations and delays abound."

The "history" of 1 month of flights is somewhat delay prone. Yes it's the summer thunderstorm season and these things happen. Keep in mind we are trying to race down the learning curve on these things and it will take time. Another reason is the whole schedule isn't up and running yet. Most of the flights are coming from delay prone airports, that will change as the smaller cities come online, and all the planes are redone (we'll have spares then), and all the gates will be available for use. Im not trying to make excuses, just pointing out some things.

As far as our ground personel, I have noticed an drastic improvement since the startup of Independence, compared to what it used to be, it's 10 times better. It's gonna take some time to break old habits but that will happen eventually. Keep in mind, united made it profitable for us not to care, they would tell us to CNX flights during bad weather days and still pay us. 4 years of operating like that builds up some bad habits in system control and on the ramp. We are keenly aware of this and are things are changing for the better, give it some time to break old habits. We are also spending money on software and other things that will help us during irregular ops. These situations will get better, they have to, and we are aware of that.

As far as air traffic control is concerened, yes we do fly some large schedules to some delay prone airports. We are offering frequency so that the consumer has a choice. All carriers are hurt by ATC delays, some just handle it differently (United, takes all express wheels up times, and assigns to mainline, Smart economically, but eventually a bad idea IMO). In the unregulated world it is possible for us to fly wherever we want, it should be up to the government to keep ATC up to date to handle demand as long as passengers are paying the taxes on the tickets, maybe its time for passengers to revolt and start contacting their senators and representatives begging them for the ATC system to be upgraded. Weather delays will happen no matter what, but things could be much better with a better ATC system. Again I'm not trying to lay blame, just pointing out a few things.

Things will get better, and hopefully you will come back and visit us again.



User currently offlineKohflot From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 3132 times:

"United, takes all express wheels up times, and assigns to mainline"

*ALL* of them?


User currently offlineJfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3626 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 3105 times:

Well I sure hope it is working for them because FlyI starts service to JFK with 16 daily flights very soon. That will be a very aggressive schedule. 32 flights to New York a day??
They have a few problems here:
1. EWR/JFK--and not LGA.
2. IAD and not DCA.
3. People still don't like RJs as much as larger aircraft.

The question that has to come up is, why not fly the shuttle flights? I am sure Indy has good service but in business it's about time.

As for the delays, one word--unacceptable. If you're a new airline the last thing customers want to hear is "The "history" of 1 month of flights is somewhat delay prone."
To say that is a failure. JetBlue didn't say that. Southwest didn't say that. Frontier didn't say that.

The airline business is ruthless. Indy can't have people sitting on the tarmac at BOS for 5 hours--that puts you out of business.  Sad

PJ


User currently offlineUA744Flagship From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 3081 times:

Thanks for the nice, informational reply Nearord.

I do hope you guys stay in business, and that you can thrive with United and really grow IAD's traffic organically.

If I-air sticks around, consumers will be undoubtedly better off with more choice and lower fares.

Let's just hope you iron out your operational issues. Yes, your staff are trained to say "yes" instead of "no", but sometimes your ground agents don't speak enough English to be able to utter an intelligible yes. Lol j/k  Smile Luckily you have the same, easy-to-use kiosks as JetBlue.


User currently offlineNearord From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 185 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2987 times:

""United, takes all express wheels up times, and assigns to mainline"

*ALL* of them?"

Per the united express contracts, when the weather goes bad, all EDCT times issued to united express and united go to one place. The United ATC office. They make the decision as to which airplanes go where when. So if ORD goes down because of weather, United will prioritize flights and give them the associated wheels up times. Now If you have a choice between bringing in a 777 with 300 people on it or a RJ with 50, which one do you take? Like I said, Makes sense economically, but in the long run those people who fly united express get sick of the long delays. Fingers start pointing and people get mad. Why do you think the term United Distress came about. Listen, it's not just ACA, its all express carriers. I am already hearing lots of grumblings coming out about the replacements. It's not the airline, It's the system. The only way to fix it, is to change the system. Make it profitable for the express carriers to care about customer service. One can cycle in airlines into the system, but unless the system changes, United Express will still be the same.


User currently offlinePHLapproach From Philippines, joined Mar 2004, 1247 posts, RR: 18
Reply 21, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2953 times:

Nearord - PHL was the first airport to use STARS (Some of my friends that ATC at PHL actually helped develop the system and train ppl) and have a very updated system. Still, we run delays out the wazoo. It's not integrity of the system, it's actually the experience of an ATC. Yes, some airports may be a bit behind. Yet, at times when you don't even know it, they are updating.

User currently offlineNearord From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 185 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2944 times:

"As for the delays, one word--unacceptable. If you're a new airline the last thing customers want to hear is "The "history" of 1 month of flights is somewhat delay prone."
To say that is a failure. JetBlue didn't say that. Southwest didn't say that. Frontier didn't say that."


I'm sorry you misinterpreted my statement. I wasn't talking about all of our flights, I was talking about the EWR flights. I should have also pointed out that it wasn't because of operational issues, it is because of weather and ATC. You're right the airline industry is brutal, but if you believe that JetBlue and southwest and frontier all had a 100% ontime when they first started, that is simply not true.

We understand it's about on-time for the business travelers, but sometimes weather happens. All airlines are affected by it, and pointing fingers is useless. All we do is wait until the on time stats come out from the DOT, then we can compare. The first month that Independence will not have any other flying besides our own is November. So until those stats come out, it's hard to judge. One can look at ACA's past and realize our on time wasn't stellar, but because of things out of our control, (see previous reply) that is not a fair comparison either.

To answer your other question, no LGA because it is a slot restriced airport and we don't have any slots. So we will fly to the other 4 (EWR, JFK, HPN, SWF) We might get some slots into LGA into the future, anything is possible. IAD because we own the gate space that is needed to run an airline of this size. DCA is also a slot restriced airport, and we don't have any slots.

As to the RJ, Yes we know that, but the seats on the new RJ are very comfortable and if the price is right, people will fly. It's about the economics, By flying RJ's we can have hourly service, when the airbusses come we could replace some of those RJ's with the busses, but with a set demand, that would mean less flights. I'm sure once the busses do come, you will see some of those flights get replaced.

As far as the BOS incident, these things happen to every airline (United in MKE, NWA in DTW, ect ect.) is it acceptable, NO. But the ATC system in place currently sometimes makes it hard to aviod such things. (Again I'm not laying blame on anyone just trying to point out a few things) Sometimes a wheels up time is given because of weather delays, you wait until a half hour prior, board up and taxi to the end of the runway. Now ATC tells you your new wheels up is in 45 Minutes, so what do you do? Keep in mind, if you taxi back in, let everyone off the plane and board up again, that alone takes 45 minutes. So lets say you do that, taxi back out, but now you're 10 minutes past the wheels up time, and they gave it to somebody else. Now they have to find another hole for you, so lets say the give you a time of 45 min past the current time. Now what do you do? Taxi back in, or wait it out? it's not as easy as most people think. How mad would you be if you found out that because we taxied back into the gate and missed the next wheels up, that the new wu time is 2:00 later because of the next line of storms? Not so easy is it. Now if they give a wu time for 4 hours later, yes we will hold off boarding or return to the gate. But that is usually not the case. It's usually given in :45 or 1:00 increments. So what do you do?

Give it some time, let a year go by and we shall see where we are. If it's bad, then it's our own fault. If it's good, then cool, we'll keep bringing low fare service to IAD and beyond. So far it is hard to judge because we are still in the middle of the transition, We have only been operating for a month as Independence. Lets just see what happens in the future before writing us off.


User currently offlineNearord From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 185 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2922 times:

PHLapproach,

I guess I wasn't as clear as I should have been. I was referencing the system, which I meant to be the united express system. Its the contracts between united and it's express carriers that needs some updating. The new contracts address some of the issues, but not all of them. I really do hope for the sake of the passengers that some of these issues get ironed out.

As for the ATC system, again I'm not laying blame or pointing fingers. I know ATC is doing the best they can. I know they are constantly updating the system and creating solutions to problems. They are burdened by many things too which I'm sure drives them nuts when people complain about it. The fact that funding is tied up in politics on a regular basis is a big problem. I do appriciate all that is being done and hope that things get better in the future.


User currently offlineKohflot From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2887 times:

nearord:

You make it sound like United changes every Express flight's EDCT time to favor themselves. That's simply not true.


25 Nearord : Well, that might be the case, but after dealing with it for years in ORD it just seems that way. If I had a dollar for evertime our dispatcher told us
26 UA744Flagship : I just wanted to point something out, esp. to all the I-air lurkers... Since I have posted in this thread, I have received not one, but two e-mail sem
27 WindowSeat : UA744Flagship, That is plain disturbing, if you received e mails from I-Air people. That is so not right. You are entitled to your own opinions and I
28 Pitrules : UA744 just curious how a member of this forum got your email addresss when your address is withheld? Or do you think it is someone not in this forum?
29 Nearord : UA744Flagship, I'm sorry to hear that, I'm a CRJ First Officer for Independence, and I guess all I can say is that every company has a few.... I do ha
30 Coewr : I took IAir from EWR to JAX last week, and I have to say it was great. I had a nice cumfy window seat (a must for all us A.netters) and a good infligh
31 Mm320cap : Hi Nearord, Enjoyed reading your posts. -I do have to say your post could catch a few people off guard, the performance thing is a bit of a touchy iss
32 UA744Flagship : just curious how a member of this forum got your email addresss when your address is withheld? I withheld my e-mail address from my airliners profile
33 Nearord : Mm320cap, Thank you sir, You guys are always welcome on us as well. I understand that it was a joint responibility, I also hear the skywest and AW thi
34 Mm320cap : Nearord, Thanks for the very well-reasoned response. You're take on it not making financial sense to provide the very best customer service is quite i
35 Nearord : Mm320cap, I agree that with you about the delays at ORD, but there is a few misconceptions in there. United and American were asked, not forced, to de
36 Iairallie : NEARORD FOR PRESIDENT..... of independance! Nice to hear from someone who truly gets it!
37 Nearord : Thank you Iairallie. Just trying to bring in a bit of reality into the kool aid infested waters. This venture by no means is going to be easy. There a
38 Flyiguy1 : By the way guys, I dunno if anybody said anything yet... But a big part of why we're having problems in places like EWR and ATL is that the ground han
39 GSPSPOT : I'm rooting for Indy Air! They arrive at GSP this Saturday!
40 United_Fan : The arrive in ROC on Saturday,too. Some new color here!
41 Mm320cap : Nearord, Your assessment of the delays in ORD is close. We ramped up after American shifted some flying from STL north. However, traffic in general ha
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