ZSSNC From Germany, joined Feb 2003, 428 posts, RR: 10 Reply 2, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2785 times:
Billy,
LH ceasing MUC might be considered as an invitation to SA to takeover the route. However, I highly doubt that SA would enter in such a risky endeavor right now. MUC/JNB did not work out for LH. In two or three years it might be something different, though.
ZSSNC
Airbus A340-600 - the longest temptation in the sky
Munich From Germany, joined Mar 2002, 155 posts, RR: 4 Reply 5, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2684 times:
@ ZSSNC
I think you are a little bit crazy. This time there are no decisions about the LH MUC-JNB flight. The last 2 years this flight was especially in the high-yield section very successful and there would be no risk if SAA could take over this flights.
But I doubt that LH will lost this good business. This time there are rumors, that LH will serve 7/7 in winter season and possibly SAA will do it at summer 2005
Billy From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2000, 895 posts, RR: 8 Reply 6, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2620 times:
Munich,
I have to agree with you on this one. MUC-JNB was one of LH's fastest selling routes when introduced. They had huge load factors 90%+ and really good yeild. I travelled a lot to SA and could never get a seat on it. LH really tightened up the yield on the flight to keep out discounted J and Y class paxx as they could sell it so easily from Germany.
The issue for LH was the huge cost of the CPT tag. This really brought down the profitability of the AB) (FRA / FRF / EDDF), Germany">FRA-JNB route. LH had high costs of operting this tag (new crew at JNB) and carried pax at a lower yield than the JNB pax. It did not make sense and LH was lookig for ways to get round this.
HB-IWC From Greece, joined Sep 2000, 4416 posts, RR: 75 Reply 7, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 2507 times:
The upgrade from A342 to A346 of the SA operated non-stop Cape Town service is indeed confirmed, together with an advancement of the starting date from November 1 to October 6.
I wouldn't be surprised at all that LH is contemplating operating its own non-stop service to Cape Town. Obviously, the SA service has been very successfull, and moreover, Lufthansa's one-stop service is likely less competitive than KLM's and BA's non-stop services on the route.
The discontinuation of the Munich-South Africa service, however, seems highly unlikely. The service has been doing well for the past two years, so the only reason why Lufthansa could be contemplating a withdrawal would be a lack of equipment to start up a non-stop Cape Town service.
An intermediate option could be the introduction of the non-stop Cape Town service out of Munich. Lufthansa has lately been showing a tendency to open up new markets ex Munich (Charlotte, Canton), and a non-stop Cape Town connection could very well be next in line.
Even faster to the Cape: Frankfurt-Cape Town non-stop
New Lufthansa connection as of 16th October 2004 -- flight time cut by more than two hours
15.07.04
A better offer to the South: just in time for the start of the autumn school holidays, Lufthansa is offering its passengers as of 16th October 2004 a non-stop flight from Frankfurt to Cape Town. Three times a week and from the end of October on even daily, an Airbus A340-300 with the flight number LH 576 will depart at 21.25 hrs. in Frankfurt and land the next day at 9.45 hrs. local time in Cape Town.
The return flight (LH 577) will leave Cape Town at 17.45 hrs, arriving at Frankfurt’s Rhein/Main Airport at 4.30 hrs. the next morning. Up to now Lufthansa has served Cape Town with a stopover in Johannesburg; as a result of the new non-stop connection the travelling time for passengers will be reduced by two hours and ten minutes to 11 hours and twenty minutes.
Johannesburg will also be served non-stop from Frankfurt. A Boeing 747-400 with the flight number LH 572 will leave Frankfurt at 21.40 hrs., arrival in the South African metropolis is scheduled for 8.50 hrs. the next morning. The return flight LH 573 from Johannesburg to Frankfurt will be in the air from 19.15 hrs to 4.25 hrs. the next morning. As a result, the daily Munich-Johannesburg-Cape Town flight will be removed from the winter timetable.
Passengers can obtain further information and make their bookings at www.lufthansa.com or the pages of linked travel portals, at the Lufthansa Call Center, at travel agencies with a Lufthansa agency or at the sales counters at the airport.
Munich From Germany, joined Mar 2002, 155 posts, RR: 4 Reply 9, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2399 times:
In spite of the LH-Statement above, there is the possibillity that LH serve further MUC-JNB. The article is a little bit vague. It could meen that only the MUC-JNB-CPT-flight is further no more possible, because there is now no LH-plane, wich will serve JNB-CPT.
MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 31155 posts, RR: 76 Reply 10, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2382 times:
.In spite of the LH-Statement above, there is the possibillity that LH serve further MUC-JNB. The article is a little bit vague. It could meen that only the MUC-JNB-CPT-flight is further no more possible, because there is now no LH-plane, wich will serve JNB-CPT.
It is not vague. If that were the case, it would say "As a result, the Cape Town leg of the daily Munich-Johannesburg-Cape Town flight will be removed from the winter timetable.:
Sadly, the route is gone. Though maybe SAA will come in, rumours have said they are strongly looking at it.
JoFMO From Germany, joined Jul 2004, 2211 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2338 times:
But why is their arrival time in AB) (FRA / FRF / EDDF), Germany">FRA now one hour earlier than now?
4:25 sounds very early. Most of the connecting flights leave after 7 o'clock. Some of them even later. So there will be a lot of travelers who will have to wait quite long for their flight.
Leskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 72 Reply 13, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2277 times:
Actually, when I checked Amadeus and Sabre today, LH572 (the daily B744 to JNB and CPT) continued to CPT even past the introduction of LH576 (the daily 3-class A343 to CPT), at least until March 2005... but maybe they'll adjust that in the coming days.
As for the MUC-JNB-Route, I doubt that it was doing as well as some of you thought: aside from the fact that they wouldn't be axing the route if it had, it was frequently no problem getting seats on the Munich route, while Frankfurt was already solidly booked - at least that was my experience, several times, when trying to get seats for clients.
Regarding the timing - somehow I doubt that they'll really be flying into Frankfurt at 4:25, that's probably a typo: actually, I think the airport only reopens at 5 in the morning, but I may be wrong about that... nonetheless, I still doubt they'll be flying in that early.
ZSSNC From Germany, joined Feb 2003, 428 posts, RR: 10 Reply 14, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2245 times:
Munich,
no problem about yesterday. Yes, I'm sometimes a bit crazy, but usually I don't post such information without a reason.
LH said that it ceased MUC do to problems with scheduling the A340-300 fleet for a MUC/JNB flight. If LH is just using this as an argument to justify the move to the much more promising AB) (FRA / FRF / EDDF), Germany">FRA/CPT nonstop flight and as a justification to its strategic partner SAA who will introduce a thrice weekly AB) (FRA / FRF / EDDF), Germany">FRA/CPT service effective 1st September, I don't know.
ZSSNC
Airbus A340-600 - the longest temptation in the sky
Munich From Germany, joined Mar 2002, 155 posts, RR: 4 Reply 15, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2197 times:
@ ZSSNC
Thx for your understanding!
Yes, I think you're right. It could be a mix between LH-policy against SAA and in deed, a part of difficulties with its A343 fleet.
It could also be a sign to Frankfurt region that LH will continue expansion in AB) (FRA / FRF / EDDF), Germany">FRA if the conditions are right and AB) (FRA / FRF / EDDF), Germany">FRA can win furthermore the competition against MUC.
BTW
LH cuts also its MUC-LAX and MUC-SFO flights to 3/7 in the winter season. This policy stands against LH announcements to do this flights 7/7 for 2005/2005. It' s the same with the LH announcement, that LH growth will be in MUC.
MUC has to realize: AB) (FRA / FRF / EDDF), Germany">FRA is the 1st and MUC only the 2nd Airport in LH ranking!
Now I'm curious how SAA will react and I'm also curious how the management of Munich airport will react.
HB-IWC From Greece, joined Sep 2000, 4416 posts, RR: 75 Reply 16, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 2172 times:
I still believe the cancelation of the MUC-JNB flight has to do with the lack of longhaul equipment to serve the route. On the other hand, the reduction of both the MUC-LAX and MUC-SFO route to 3/7 for the winter, which seemed to be confirmed despite last week's announcement that both services would go daily, doesn't spell much good for the MUC hub. I wonder what's going to happen to longhaul destinations served only from MUC (CLT and CAN). Is a shift of those services to FRa imminent?
Mozart From Luxembourg, joined Aug 2003, 2036 posts, RR: 14 Reply 17, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 2159 times:
Hold your horses, guys.
The fact that MUC-JNB was a winter-only service indicates that demand was primarily from people going on vacation - BMW and all the other Bavarian companies don't have those seasonal fluctuations. Since most demand is vacationers, yields aren't that great, so in my mind it is at least plausible that the MUC-JNB wasn't doing that great.
Regarding the other "MUC only services" being shifted to AB) (FRA / FRF / EDDF), Germany">FRA - HB-IWC mentioned CLT and CAN - that is a different story. CLT is also served out of AB) (FRA / FRF / EDDF), Germany">FRA (by Star partner US), and YUL, which is another MUC-only destination, is served from AB) (FRA / FRF / EDDF), Germany">FRA by AC. I don't want to pronounce myself on CAN, as from the facts I cannot make out any plausible scenario. Maybe they will add another CAN flight from AB) (FRA / FRF / EDDF), Germany">FRA, on top of the existing MUC one? Or make it nonstop from MUC? Or shift it altogether to AB) (FRA / FRF / EDDF), Germany">FRA? Can't say
Oh, and re: the early arrival times in AB) (FRA / FRF / EDDF), Germany">FRA. I don't have info about the opening of the AB) (FRA / FRF / EDDF), Germany">FRA airport, but two things are very possible: either the author mixed up GMT and local time (04h25 GMT would be 05h25 local), or this is indeed LH again giving a sh**t about pax comfort and just dropping them off in the wee hours because it suits them operationally. Next thing to do will be to introduce a CRJ on MUC-JNB, with intermediate stop in Kilimanjaro in the middle of the night, and then argue that "all that people want is to get from A to B". Yeah right...
JoFMO From Germany, joined Jul 2004, 2211 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 2081 times:
Its indeed not a good sign for MUC. Over the last two years it seemed that MUC is in advantage against AB) (FRA / FRF / EDDF), Germany">FRA. But AB) (FRA / FRF / EDDF), Germany">FRA seems to strike back.
Regarding their CAN flights ist part of a more general problem that all their MUC-East Asian flights from MUC timed as red-eyes in both ways while the AB) (FRA / FRF / EDDF), Germany">FRA flights are daylight flights on their way back to Europe. So all the MUC flights are standing around a couple of hours in PEK, PVG and HKG. So extending a flight to PVG it was a logical step to start with an extension of a MUC flight. But regarding competition from AF and their nonstop to CAN I could see a nonstop from AB) (FRA / FRF / EDDF), Germany">FRA in the near future.
A new service for MUC I could see is an extension of their HKG flight to Taipei. But that's another story...
The idle ground time for the A343 at CPT is 8 hours and for the B744 at JNB a whopping 10.5 hours. As long ground times like that are very unlike Lufthansa, I wonder if we could see the JNB equipment used for a return to WDH. Lufthansa quit WDH about 3 years ago.
MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 31155 posts, RR: 76 Reply 20, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 2021 times:
LH cuts also its MUC-LAX and MUC-SFO flights to 3/7 in the winter season.
And, as of now, MUC-MIA will only 3/7 instead of daily, as well. Though I've heard rumours that there is a good chance it will up to daily by the time November comes around.
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