Leelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Posted (9 years 8 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2511 times:
I was lunching yesterday with a couple of retired UAL Captains and they're still convinced that the pilots are going to swoop in and buy what's left of the company. They claim that the 9000 UAL pilots will be able to swing this at $60K per head. I suggested that concept didn't make much sense and they should arise from their "wet dream." They countered that the pilot cadre is highly motivated to take such action to preserve their jobs. Does this concept have any merit?
TOLtommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3271 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (9 years 8 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2490 times:
I really don't know where this notion comes from that pilots are somehow automatically qualified to run an airline, and can do it better than a professional management team can. I realize that pilots are in general highly educated, and again in general, in possession of large egos. BUT.... Those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it. Those retired pilots are probably EXTREMELY scared that their pensions will go the way of the US Airways pilots. They hope that by encouraging their fellow pilots at UA to buy the airline, that it will probably save their pensions. That would be the wrong reason for the current employees to buy the company.
That being said, those still with the company will likely wind up with a minority stake in the company when it emerges from CH11. But those who do not remember history will be doomed to repeat it. The employees should put their stake in a blind trust and let professionals manage the airline. Then they should go and do what THEY do best, whether it's flying airplanes or fixing them. If UA puts the right people in the right jobs, the company can thrive after CH11. But if the employees insist on tinkering with what they do not fully understand, UA will follow the same course it did as they slid into CH11.
Ifly2eat From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 8 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (9 years 8 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2482 times:
I seriously doubt if many UAL pilots would fork over $60K a year for a bankrupt airline. They had their chance with the ESOP program and their one seat on the board. That didn't work too well. By the way, I do not think there are 9,000 pilots at UAL after the furloughs. The old retired pilots need to go back to playing golf and spending time with the grand kids and forget about the airline industry.
Ual777contrail From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (9 years 8 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2422 times:
If an employee runned company(ESOP) didn't wake these 2 fools up then maybe it's a good thing they are in fact retired now. A company run by pilots would be like a plane with no wings, wouldn't make sense, and wouldn't work.
Another ESOP would kill us also. There is no way other job groups would go along with anything they wanted, it would probably only benefit the pilots anyways. Most pilots think they are our bosses now anyways, so that wouldn't go off well.
Mm320cap From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 227 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (9 years 8 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2240 times:
It was talked about, and the rumour is still out there (obviously), but its not going to happen. It is not seriously talked about by our union...thank god. I've lost all I care to lose in ESOP stock money. Sigh.
SPREE34 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 2184 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (9 years 8 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2142 times:
They (pilots) can't afford $60k to do it. They took BIG pay cuts, remember?
A friend of mine at AA said his ex.USAF buddy is down to $75k a year as a 737 FO at UA. I'm thinking he needs more than the $15K that would be left to live on.
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
SevenHeavy From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 1140 posts, RR: 10
Reply 7, posted (9 years 8 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2047 times:
Whilst I would tend to agree that this subject is more the stuff of someones wild daydreams than pure fact I think some of you are misreading the outlay that would (potentially) be incurred by the pilots. The figure of $60K would be a one off figure and not an annual "sub" to keep the airline flying. That figure itself does not seem particularly unreasonable as a one off payment. However the idea still seems far fetched to say the least and if inproperly concieved would doubtless spell the end of an already financially traumatised airline.
Isitsafenow From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 24
Reply 8, posted (9 years 8 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1967 times:
I almost fainted when I read this posts by-line. Pilots are great at flying airplanes..They are really good at it. They usually stink at business. An example is KIWI Airlines, run by former pilots of Eastern and a few other carriers. It was a pretty good airline. I flew em from TPA to MDW and like the product. I was all pumped up to do it again, however, the rest is history......seewhatImean?.......
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
Midway2airtran From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 864 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (9 years 7 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 1718 times:
I don't think the "professionals" did their job well, otherwise UAL wouldn't find themselves in this position. I'm not an expert at bankruptcy cases, but if this did happen, I don't think it would be in the form of an ESOP? If anything, it will take some smart/creative investors and strong leadership to get UAL well back into the black. Now if the pilots were and could do it, that is a question, but something has got to change!
Speedport From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 284 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (9 years 7 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 1660 times:
What I find even more incredible than another buy-out by United pilots is the proposed quasi buy-out by Delta's pilots.
In exchange for concessions, ALPA's Delta unit wants a seat on the board and an equity share in the airline. They also said they want cost cutting across the entire company. Isn't this how the ESOP began? I am being rhetorical. This is exactly how it began. UAL's pilots offered concessions in exchange for a seat on the board plus stock but wanted all of the employees to take cuts. The other employee groups felt if a seat on the BOD and stock was good enough for the pilots they wanted the same deal, too.
I know this Delta topic has probably been discussed in another thread, I just find it hard to believe that a group of pilots can propose to follow a model which proved disastrous to another group of pilots.
To answer the question if the rumor has any merit I would say anything is possible at this point given that DAL pilots can't learn a lesson either.
Hnl-Jack From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 817 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (9 years 7 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 1599 times:
I believe it would be extremely interesting to have the pilots "take over" UAL. Can you imagine the contract discussions that would take place when the management group the pilots will have to appoint, realize that one of their core problems is the inflated salaries they're paying for under-utilized pilots.
The cost structure at United is out of whack and it isn't a result of overpaid management. It is a direct result of a half of century of greed and self indulgence on the part of unionized labor as well as management who patronized it.
Grew up in the business and continued the family tradition.
Tsully From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 651 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 1483 times:
The old retired pilots need to go back to playing golf and spending time with the grand kids and forget about the airline industry.
Except for the fact that United's future as a viable airline directly impacts their bottom line (a paycheck each month). IMO, that is reason enough to stay alert and concerned. Now if they were smart, they'd be making other [backup] plans for generating cash flow. My great uncle was a steward for Pan Am, and guess what...He is alive and well today, but without a retirement check from PA for his 40 yrs of service.
I love America. I guess that makes me Bush's poodle, but I'd rather be a dog in New York City than a prince in Riyadh.