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JAL And ANA Stagnant Network  
User currently offlineAirmale From Botswana, joined Sep 2004, 377 posts, RR: 1
Posted (10 years 2 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3444 times:

Why arent the two expanding? compare Korean Air's passenger and Cargo routes, I would have imagines Japanese carriers flying to half the world. Even JAL Cargo are not growing.


.....up there with the best!
32 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAms From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 1691 posts, RR: 11
Reply 1, posted (10 years 2 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 3375 times:

I can confirm that ANA and JAL hate each other very much. ANA Has been trying hard to beat JAL, regarding passengers service etc.

Even people within those companies are unwilling to even speak with someone from the other company.

I do agree with you; that working together may benefit both companies, but at the moment there is too much distance.



Regards,
AMS


User currently offlineHorus From Egypt, joined Feb 2004, 5230 posts, RR: 59
Reply 2, posted (10 years 2 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 3333 times:

Will ANA ever expand in Europe? Surely the 7E7s might make it possible to operate on thinner routes.


EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
User currently offlineAms From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 1691 posts, RR: 11
Reply 3, posted (10 years 2 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3289 times:

Horus,

ANA is looking at the moment for an other European City, which includes Brussels. However nothing defined yet.


Regards,
AMS


User currently offlineHorus From Egypt, joined Feb 2004, 5230 posts, RR: 59
Reply 4, posted (10 years 2 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3278 times:

What about the Middle East? Maybe not right now, but DXB, DOH, KWI, JED, CAI or even BEY would be a nice addition to either Japanese carrier's network. I know, I know I can continue to dream... Big grin

Horus




EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
User currently offlineAms From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 1691 posts, RR: 11
Reply 5, posted (10 years 2 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3273 times:

Horus,

There needs to be a solid Japanese market in able for NH to fly to a middle-east destination. Also at the moment NH routes their middle east customers via Bangkok, Thailand.



Regards,
AMS



User currently offlineKEno From Malaysia, joined Feb 2004, 1842 posts, RR: 27
Reply 6, posted (10 years 2 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3265 times:

Few weeks ago there was a thread (or was it a post?) about ANA planning to start NRT(or KIX?)-MAN-DUB. Not sure how valid this news is.

User currently offlineHorus From Egypt, joined Feb 2004, 5230 posts, RR: 59
Reply 7, posted (10 years 2 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3236 times:

AMS, the problem is that if they keep on waiting, the market is gonna get saturated by Middle Eastern carriers. Currently the following fly to Japan:

Egyptair: serve Tokyo 3x weekly A340 and Osaka 2x weekly B777(increases to 3 in October)
Emirates: serve Osaka 5x weekly A345
Iran Air: serve Tokyo 2x weekly B747SP

It's only a matter of time before GF, EY and QR start services to Japan from their respective hubs.

Horus




EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
User currently offlineAms From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 1691 posts, RR: 11
Reply 8, posted (10 years 2 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3229 times:

At the moment EK and MS are offering direct service to/from Japan.
I always wondered why EK choose to fly to KIX, although KIX is a nicer airport, and EK also has a codeshare agreement with JL for the other Japanese cities.

If there will be more competition between the Middle-east and Japan, then surely some airlines will suffer.



Regards,

MS / EHAM), Netherlands">AMS



User currently offlineCarfield From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1920 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (10 years 2 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3187 times:

I guess the limited slots at NRT limit the expansion of these Japanese airlines. With the recent economic depression in Japan, both Japanese airlines are more careful in their destination choices. Indeed, JL has reduced its network. NH is only given the rights for international flights since 80s, and the NRT slots limit their expansions. KIX only proves to be an expensive airport. However, when the new Nagoya/central Japan airport open, there will be another wave of expansions. However, I don't see them adding many new destinations except Chinese and some Asian cities.

I personally find JL service to be in the decline, but NH is getting better each day. Its premium service surpasses JL... just my opinion.

That is just my humble opinion.

Carfield


User currently offlineHorus From Egypt, joined Feb 2004, 5230 posts, RR: 59
Reply 10, posted (10 years 2 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3184 times:

The problem is that EK were not able to get the required slots at Narita, so they decided to go to Osaka first, until they can sort out the NRT problem.

If there will be more competition between the Middle-east and Japan, then surely some airlines will suffer.

At the moment it's still a new and expanding market, but it definitely has potential. Last year a large number of Arab tourist visited Japan and South-East Asia, shunning Europe and America becuase of what is percieved as an increasing hatred towards Arabs/Muslims.

Horus




EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
User currently offlineEIRules From Ireland, joined Aug 2007, 777 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (10 years 2 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3179 times:

I agree KEno, I heard a rumour going around of a NRT-MAN-DUB route but I heard that it would be with JAL not ANA. JAL already codeshare with BA so perhaps this would make more sense, maybe even codeshare with EI?


Next Flights: EI DUB-LHR A320, BA LHR-SFO B744, UA SFO-LAS A320, BA LAS-LHR B744, EI LHR-DUB A320
User currently offlineJoFMO From Germany, joined Jul 2004, 2211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (10 years 2 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 3167 times:

What makes NRT so crowded.

they have two runways which could be used simultaneously, although one is still to short fir long range take-offs.
there are virtually now domestic routes from NRT, so everything is widebody.

All in all NRT is in the 30million passenger league. Other Airports with a similar layout handle much more passengers.

So I hardly cant understand why NRT is so short of slots.

Clarifications welcomed.


User currently offlineJALSVO From Russia, joined Jul 2004, 8 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (10 years 2 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 3106 times:

JAL has announced new routes from new Nagoya airport, Centrair, when it is open in February, 2005. Those are daily Nagoya - Paris and Nagoya - Guangzhou three times a week. Frequences to other destinations (Asia) will be increased.
But I think for JAL it is rather difficult to venture out into the new markets being in a bad financial situation for a while now.


User currently offlineSpacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3629 posts, RR: 12
Reply 14, posted (10 years 2 months 4 days ago) and read 3062 times:

All in all NRT is in the 30million passenger league. Other Airports with a similar layout handle much more passengers.

So I hardly cant understand why NRT is so short of slots.


Ever been there? Two terminals (plus a satellite terminal accessible by tram), not enough gates. It's really a terrible airport, if you ask me.

The problem is not the runways. The problem is a lot of international flights sitting at gates or on the tarmac for long periods of time (meaning more than a few hours), hence the slot limitations.

Also, because it handles mostly heavies, the gates have to be larger, meaning fewer of them in the same area as comparably sized airports.

NRT really needs another terminal, but I don't know if there are any plans for this.



I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8153 posts, RR: 26
Reply 15, posted (10 years 2 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 3047 times:

Good luck getting any NRT expansions past the surrounding NIMBYs - the limited capacity of the second runway is debilitating.


If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineJoFMO From Germany, joined Jul 2004, 2211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (10 years 2 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 3046 times:

Yeah, been there last summer. Arrival at 8:30 terminal 2. Widebodies from every European major at that time. But I felt no crowd! Arriving in LAX was worst!

So why don't they simply build new gates? It shouldn't be that complicated like building a runway.


User currently offlineTokyoNarita From Palau, joined Aug 2003, 570 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (10 years 2 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 2947 times:

Why arent the two expanding?

They are.

In the past couple of years JAL and ANA have expanded in Asia, specifically in China. What about Vietnam for JAL? Ho Chi Minh and Hanoi?

TokyoNarita

[Edited 2004-07-19 00:00:24]

User currently offlineSpacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3629 posts, RR: 12
Reply 18, posted (10 years 2 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 2923 times:

Yeah, been there last summer. Arrival at 8:30 terminal 2. Widebodies from every European major at that time. But I felt no crowd!

You got lucky. I have never waited less than one hour and thirty minutes to get through customs on the way in, and never less than one hour and thirty minutes to get to the gate on departure. I have never seen lines that long at any other airport, anywhere in the world.

I have also rarely taken less than 20-30 minutes just to get from the plane to customs. I must be extraordinarily unlucky in my gate assignments - the ANA flights between NRT-JFK seem to park on the tarmac an inordinate amount of the time for what you'd think would be one of their "prestige" routes.



I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
User currently offlineAirmale From Botswana, joined Sep 2004, 377 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (10 years 2 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2823 times:

AMS ANA served Brussels before as well.

TokyoNarita expansion to other parts of the world like Central Asia, Middle East, Eastern Europe, Africa and Latin America, not regional destinations.

JAL code share with Emirates to Dubai at present.



.....up there with the best!
User currently offlineAirmale From Botswana, joined Sep 2004, 377 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (10 years 2 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2794 times:

Horus JAL served Abu Dhabi, Kuwait, Jeddah, Cairo and another Saudi destination during the 80's, and Beirut in the 70's.


.....up there with the best!
User currently offlineDonder10 From Canada, joined Oct 2001, 6660 posts, RR: 21
Reply 21, posted (10 years 2 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2743 times:

Considering the Japanese economy has been pretty stagnant for the last 8 years+ it's hardly surprising JAL and ANA haven't been expanding at breakneck speed.However,'mainland Asia' is the hotest region on earth so some growth will occur.


compare Korean Air's passenger and Cargo routes, I would have imagines Japanese carriers flying to half the world

South Korea's trade with China is growing at an astonishing rate right now so I can imagine KE's freighters into the middle kingdom are doing very well.Haven't they just started a new route like Chendu?


User currently offlineFinnWings From Finland, joined Oct 2003, 640 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (10 years 2 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2756 times:

I have been always wondering the lack of ANA or JAL on Scandinavian market... There is HUGE demand between Japan and Scandinavia as many Japanese tourists are willing to see the midnight sun in the summer and the northern lights in winter. And I'm not speaking any normal charter tourists now... usually these japanese tourists are on very expensive Europe tours flying very often in business class. There is also a lot of other passengers on these routes, considering the fact that especially Finland (Nokia) and Sweden (Ericsson) have a lot of high tech industry like Japan as well. So this is VERY high yield market indeed...

Finnair flies currently 5 x week to KIX and 2 x week to NRT. Both services are very successfull and I believe SK is doing very well from CPH to Japan as well. Even AY has daily flights from HEL to Japan this market is underserved. AY desperately tried to get more slots for NRT many years without success, therfore they introduced KIX service recently.

Scandinavia would be wise choice due the geographical point of view as well. Currently all JAL and ANA flights to Europe goes over Finland, Sweden and Denmark. Helsinki has also one of the lowest landing fees in Europe...

Best Regards,
FinnWings


User currently offlineAirmale From Botswana, joined Sep 2004, 377 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (10 years 2 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 2587 times:

OK what about JL Cargo, I would think they would find new markets in Europe and the Middle East.


.....up there with the best!
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32782 posts, RR: 72
Reply 24, posted (10 years 2 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 2518 times:

ANA's 7E7 order presents an excellent oppurtunity to open up thinner markets that can fill a flight to Tokyo...Boston, Denver, Miami, Brussels, Madrid, Dusseldorf...it will be very intersting to see what happens.


a.
25 Cessna172RG : Regarding "NIMBY's" in Japan... Sure people may not like having an airport in their backyard, but the Japanese Construction Ministry and other departm
26 JoFMO : But aren't the high prices for domestic flying in Japan because of the overvalued yen? everything is unbelievable expensive there! I remember as I was
27 Ams : But aren't the high prices for domestic flying in Japan because of the overvalued yen? everything is unbelievable expensive there! Well Japan used to
28 Airmale : Yes they seem to be stuck in the "Hub" system theory of yore, wonder why they got the 767ERs for during the 80's the aircraft were never used beyond r
29 Horus : Horus JAL served Abu Dhabi, Kuwait, Jeddah, Cairo and another Saudi destination during the 80's, and Beirut in the 70's. Airmale, do you know any info
30 Airmale : The routing was a milk run Tokyo-Bangkok-Karachi-Abu Dhabi-Kuwait-Jeddah-Cairo-Athens using a DC10-40 and it operated once a week right up till early
31 Post contains images Sleak76 : Airmale I could just see the number of frequent flier miles one would get on that routing if he were to leave Tokyo and intending to make ATH his dest
32 Airmale : All of these i.e Karachi, Abu Dhabi, Kuwait, Jeddah, Cairo and Athens were dropped together around winter 1989/90.
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