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Why Is The 767 So Behind The A330?  
User currently offlineA380900 From France, joined Dec 2003, 1091 posts, RR: 1
Posted (9 years 9 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 13277 times:

The 737 based on a very old airframe can obviously compete with the newer A320. On the other hand, it seems like the 767 is unable to match the A330-200 although the generation gap between the two is much smaller. Why is that?

46 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (9 years 9 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 13229 times:

IMO the 767's biggest competitive disadvantage, particularly the 764, to the A330 is the narrower freight compartment cross-section which doesn't allow it load 2 LD3 containers side by side.

User currently offlineHAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2530 posts, RR: 53
Reply 2, posted (9 years 9 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 13189 times:

I'll strike the match on this one...


I'd like to ask what basis you are using for your question. Are you looking at sales statistics? Operational reliability? Direct operating cost? Passenger comfort? Relative current strength of Boeing vs. Airbus? Which one of these is the grounds for your assertion?


To get to the point, they are different airplanes! They serve different markets with different airlines! It's nice to try and lump aircraft together, but in reality each has its advantages and disadvantages.

To give just one example; in long range operations the Airbus may have the upper hand in efficiency, but if you have to combine short and long legs (i.e. Delta Airlines) the 767 is more robust and able to last longer - saving the company money.

There are dozens more reasons why one is better than the other in specific operations. Unless you can describe exactly what you are looking for, the question is meaningless.

Bombs away!  Smile

HAL



One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
User currently offlineCRJ900 From Norway, joined Jun 2004, 2152 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (9 years 9 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 13120 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Boeing has sold around 900 B767s, it that is not a decent marketshare, then what is? Orders have slowed down because there are so many 767s flying already, and being of excellent quality there is still plenty of life left in these birds, hence no need to replace them at the moment.

I love both the 767s and the 330s, may they fly forever.



Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
User currently offlineTrevD From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 327 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (9 years 9 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 13058 times:

So if the 767 has outsold the A330 almost 2:1, which is the more succesful airplane? And to keep things in perspective, the 767 so thoroughly dominated the A300/A310 line that Airbus HAD to replace those a/c with the A330.

To their credit, Airbus recognized they needed a competitive advantage to compete with the 767 family and sized the A332 to compete with the more popular 763 and the A333 was sized to provide an incremental seat advantage and target the market between the 763 and the 772. That's been fertile territory the last few years and couple that with the huge discounts (50%) that Airbus has been offering to incentivize customers - they have sold a lot.

So credit to Airbus for making the A330 series popular, but is it a success? As an investor I am not very keen on the airplane as I'm alway worried what stupid deal Airbus will do (discounts greater than 50%) just to win another deal and dilute the value my aircraft and every other one previously sold. So if you judge success by the number of tails out there, then no question the A330 series is a success, but if you judge success by commercial terms - did Airbus make money or is the airplane a good investment, you would have to so NO.




User currently offlineNa From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10365 posts, RR: 11
Reply 5, posted (9 years 9 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 12980 times:

Being in production twice as long as the A330 the 767 has sold more than twice in numbers. I guess its a mix of different facts that makes the 767 fall behind now considerably. Economics aside that is:
1. It´s getting old.
2. The promising 7E7 as a replacement is on the horizon (hardly something that drives the masses towards the older type!)
3. Most customers have enough of still young 767-300s in their fleet. They only need replacement when the 7E7 is already out to fly (similar problem that the 747-400 has today).
4. the A330 is a perfect partner of the larger and longer-range A340s.


User currently offlineFinnWings From Finland, joined Oct 2003, 640 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (9 years 9 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 12932 times:

Actually B767 first flight was in 1982 and A330 in 1997...

So B767 is 22 years old and A330 7 years old. When comparing sales numbers please try to remember these facts...

That's been fertile territory the last few years and couple that with the huge discounts (50%) that Airbus has been offering to incentivize customers

Do you really think that only Airbus is doing this...? These discounts are as common with all manufacturers. Besides, airlines don't EVER order new aircraft and pay the list price... Buying an aircraft isn't like going to buy some food from grocery or not even like buying a car!! List prices are just some rough numbers... True prices are tightly kept secrets.

Best Regards,
FinnWings


[Edited 2004-07-19 12:17:59]

User currently offlineZKSUJ From New Zealand, joined May 2004, 7073 posts, RR: 12
Reply 7, posted (9 years 9 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 12915 times:

"I love both the 767s and the 330s, may they fly forever"
I hope so, I would also like the 744 to fly forever, but at this stage, it's looking shaky, but hey who knows?


User currently offlineNa From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10365 posts, RR: 11
Reply 8, posted (9 years 9 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 12797 times:

"Actually B767 first flight was in 1982 and A330 in 1997...

So B767 is 22 years old and A330 7 years old. When comparing sales numbers please try to remember these facts..."


Not true. The first A330-300 was delivered to Air Inter in 1993! The 767 is in production 22 years, the A330 11 years.


User currently offlineFinnWings From Finland, joined Oct 2003, 640 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (9 years 9 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 12769 times:

Na,

Thanks for correction... sorry, my mistake, I posted A330-200 numbers even -300 is older. I forgot that...

FinnWings


User currently offlineHlywdCatft From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 5321 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (9 years 9 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 12722 times:

What do you see more carriers flying across the Atlantic Ocean?

The 767 or the A330?

I would put my money on the 767.


User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 11, posted (9 years 9 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 12558 times:

Oh, yet another A vs B discussion.......I was going to say something but I am too bored to respond. One question: how many times are we going to do this?

[Edited 2004-07-19 16:29:12]

User currently offlineWillo From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 1352 posts, RR: 13
Reply 12, posted (9 years 9 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 12512 times:

"I love both the 767s and the 330s, may they fly forever"

spare parts could become an issue by about 2045 Smile/happy/getting dizzy


[Edited 2004-07-19 16:26:41]

User currently offlineThrust From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 2686 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (9 years 9 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 12449 times:

Truly it is an undisputable fact the A330 is a superior aircraft to the 767. That is why Boeing is designing the 7E7  Big grin

The 7E7 is supposed to have equal to or greater range than the A330s, and will have more powerful and fuel-efficient engines....



Fly one thing; Fly it well
User currently offlineHz747300 From Hong Kong, joined Mar 2004, 1647 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (9 years 9 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 12276 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Plus the A330-200 is a cool looking aircraft!!!

However, I can't complain about my longhaul 767-300ER experiences.



Keep on truckin'...
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16345 posts, RR: 86
Reply 15, posted (9 years 9 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 12215 times:

So credit to Airbus for making the A330 series popular, but is it a success? As an investor I am not very keen on the airplane as I'm alway worried what stupid deal Airbus will do (discounts greater than 50%) just to win another deal and dilute the value my aircraft and every other one previously sold. So if you judge success by the number of tails out there, then no question the A330 series is a success, but if you judge success by commercial terms - did Airbus make money or is the airplane a good investment, you would have to so NO.


As an investor, you should know what you're talking about, yet you don't.

Airbus has made a large sum of money, and as EADS has said over and over, Airbus is one of their most profitable divisions, and the A330 one of their most profitable products.

No matter how much people may repeat it over and over, Airbus does not sell aircraft at a loss.

N


User currently offlineOD-BWH From Kuwait, joined Jan 2002, 399 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (9 years 9 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 12039 times:

Never compare an A330-200 to a 767-300! It should be compared to the 767-400, which, so far, has two customers only... to the best of my knowledge: CO and DL. A332, is by far, more successful, and I blv has more capacity.

What do you see more carriers flying across the Atlantic Ocean?

The 767 or the A330?

I would put my money on the 767.


Carriers have been using the 767 since the 80's accross the Atlantic, a date when the A330 did not exist.

A fair comparison, again, is to put the A332 with B764. Almost all carriers interested in this capacity range are picking the A332, even those in the US. (NW and US). On the other hand, No one outside the US has ever thought about the 764.

P.S. I blv the 767 has a bigger range than the A330's.. Correct me if i'm mistaken.

Regards...
OD-BWH



A300, A319, A320, A321, A332, A333, A343, A346, A388, B734, B738, B772, B773, F70
User currently offlineB727-200 From Australia, joined Nov 1999, 1051 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (9 years 9 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 11953 times:


It's all horses for courses. I think a lot of very valid points have been raised, such as the flexibility of the B767 to fly shorter routes economically, the economics of the A330 over medium-long range routes, and the freight capabilities of the A330.

The B767 is a real workhorse that has proven itself over time. Maybe one day the same comparison will be made between the B7E7 and the A330, when the latter has 15 years on its rival?

In these comparitive threads I always like to ask the question, are either of these aircraft bad aircraft? The answer is no, because I don't believe that Boeing or Airbus make bad aircraft - modern technology, manufacturing techniques and market research would not allow this to happen. So in the end it all comes back to best fit.


User currently offlineBeachthing From United States of America, joined May 2004, 71 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (9 years 9 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 11909 times:

To the original poster: isn't it simply obvious that the 767 is a child of 70s technology and an older product? That being said, it has still been plenty successful in terms of usage and sales over the years...

User currently offlineIowa744fan From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 931 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (9 years 9 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 11893 times:

comment from the very unbiased John Leahy

Ok, I hope that you were being sarcastic on this one. I am sure that every sales person for both Boeing and Airbus are completely unbiased and willing to promote the other company's aircraft.

4. the A330 is a perfect partner of the larger and longer-range A340s.

While I am not denying this as a selling point, how influential has this been for carriers in switching from the 767 family to the A330 family. How many airlines has switched and operate both the 330 and the 340? I can think of SAS and Air France.

Airbus has made a large sum of money, and as EADS has said over and over, Airbus is one of their most profitable divisions, and the A330 one of their most profitable products

Do they post their operating results anywhere? Can you give me a site or link so that I can check out their figures.

Also, as mentioned earlier, if we are going to have this discussion, why don't we also start the thread, "Why were the A300/A310 so far behind the 767?" Why not, because it is nothing byt A vs. B bashing!

Finally, to end on a humerous note, Willo:

spare parts could become an issue by about 2045

Just check with NW around that year!  Smile


User currently offlineYUL332LX From Canada, joined Feb 2004, 820 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (9 years 9 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 11730 times:

Do they post their operating results anywhere? Can you give me a site or link so that I can check out their figures.

The following site might help you.
http://www.finance.eads.net/ehomepag.php



E volavo, volavo felice più in alto del sole, e ancora più su mentre il mondo pian piano spariva lontano laggiù ...
User currently offlineAirPortugal310 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3451 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (9 years 9 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 11672 times:

Why do simple questions like the original turn into such dillemas?


hit it and quit it
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16345 posts, RR: 86
Reply 22, posted (9 years 9 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 10343 times:

P.S. I blv the 767 has a bigger range than the A330's.. Correct me if i'm mistaken.

That is at least partially incorrect. The A330-200 has a greater range than each member of the 767 family.

The A330-300 has a comparable range.

N


User currently offlineJeckPDX From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 255 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (9 years 9 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 10335 times:

Strictly from a passengers point of view, I prefer the 767 for several reasons. One, the possibility of getting a middle seat is less than on the A330. Two, I find the cabin of the 767 more spacious and less claustrophobic. (OPINION) I understand the efficiency benefits of having two cargo containers side by side insteads of staggered, and on high profit cargo routes, this a/c would make economic sense over the 767. However, I'm sure there are times whn it is just the opposite! One more comment, and superficial as it may be, I cannot stand theway they passenger windows taper upward at the rear of Airbus wide bodied aircraft. IMHO, an egregious design flaw.

Long live both aircraft and may they serve their respective operators well!

JeckPDX



"Beer is proof that God Loves us and wanted People to be Happy" - Ben Franklin
User currently offlineAreopagus From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 1368 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (9 years 9 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 9996 times:

Boeing claims that the 767 is more efficient than the A330 on a cost per passenger mile basis. The 330 evidently more than makes up for this with its indisputable freight hauling advantage, which it inherited from the A300/A310.

In the 1980s, the 767 pioneered ETOPS, and had the range to handle the transatlantic market, so it was bought for that role.

More recently, the A332 was built with longer range, and the 764 didn't get the once-expected range extensions after the 747x was cancelled and its engines with it. With longer range and higher productivity due to the cargo capacity, the 332 dominated the 767.

Ever since the first public Sonic Cruiser announcement in early 2001, the 767 has been seen as a lame duck in the Boeing stable -- and now, with the 7E7 launched, it certainly is. So some 767 sales may have been lost for this reason; no one wants to sign up for the last production slots of an outgoing product line.


25 Antares : One thing that may have been overlooked was the fact that in the real world the 767s were even slower than A340-300s in flight, and we all know how la
26 Boysteve : Given the choice on an Atlantic crossing I would go for the A330 every time over the B767. I am qualified to state this as I have done so on both a BA
27 Modesto2 : Someone compared the A332 and the 764...how? They have completely different purposes. The A332 has reduced capactiy (compared to the A333 and definite
28 LVZXV : 1. It's not. 2. It's older. The B767-200 family is unlikely to secure any more orders (CO's order for 10 could have been the last) as the design dates
29 Yukimizake : Although they are used by airlines on similar routes they are still very different planes, each with strengths and weaknesses relative to one another.
30 MAH4546 : the A300/A310 line that Airbus HAD to replace those a/c with the A330. The A330 did not replace the A300/A310 line, which is still in production.
31 AvObserver : I echo the above comment that the 767's smaller cross-section is a major factor in its losing ground to the A330 in recent years due to increasing imp
32 Post contains images Iowa744fan : YUL, Thanks again for the help. I need to just start sending you direct emails for all my questions! Thanks.
33 Wdleiser : listen, the A330 has taken a great share of the 767's markets, boeings responce to the A330 is the 7e7.
34 Post contains images TransPac : LVZXV....very well stated, couldn't have said it better myself (so I won't)
35 Baw716 : Greetings all, I have read the many comments back and forth on the merits (or lack of them) of each of the arguments that attempt to answer the questi
36 HAL : Baw716, Thank you!! A very well thought out explanation of what my little rant at the top of this thread was trying to say. Keep this up and I'll have
37 HlywdCatft : ***Carriers have been using the 767 since the 80's accross the Atlantic, a date when the A330 did not exist. A fair comparison, again, is to put the A
38 Beachthing : "No one outside the US has ever thought about the 764." Do your research before you put your foot in your mouth... "One thing that may have been overl
39 HlywdCatft : Wasn't the 767-400 built specifically for Delta and Continental upon their requests for an L1011 and DC-10 replacement? I liked the 764 when I flew it
40 LVZXV : Beachthing: The 747's higher cruising speed may look marginal, but on a long sector my God you notice it. For example, here is how various Boeing mode
41 A380900 : Thanks to everybody with a special mention to Baw716!
42 Keesje : There are some limitations on the 767 in premium seating due to cabin width; however, seat manufacturers are able to overcome this drawback. good anal
43 Baw716 : My thanks to those of you who have commented on my post. With regard to Keesje's remarks about premium seating and cabin service aboard the 767, I am
44 RayChuang : In my humble opinion, Airbus really lucked out with the A330-200. Remember, Airbus originally did not offer the A330-200, instead steering customers l
45 OD-BWH : Bitchthing.. i think i've put my foot in your mouth... And yes, i did search. Can you give one airline name outside the US?
46 Gigneil : I will give you two. 1) SQ 2) QF Both have seriously considered the 764. N
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