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Fickle BA?  
User currently offlineJasepl From India, joined Jul 2004, 3582 posts, RR: 39
Posted (10 years 2 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 1886 times:

Fickle BA?

At work yesterday, the conversation got around to abandoned destinations. Most of us concluded that BA's been one of the most fickle in the recent past.

In the last few years alone, they've abandoned a lot of long-haul destinations. I could come up with about 30:

* Adelaide, Australia
* Anchorage, United States
* Auckland, New Zealand
* Brisbane, Australia
* Cancun, Mexico
* Charlotte, United States
* Colombo, Sri Lanka
* Durban, South Africa
* Fukuoka, Japan
* Gaborone, Botswana
* Havana, Cuba
* Jakarta, Indonesia
* Kano, Nigeria
* Lima, Peru
* Luxor, Egypt
* Manila, Philippines
* Montego Bay, Jamaica
* Nagoya, Japan
* Osaka, Japan
* Perth, Australia
* Pittsburgh, United States
* Port of Spain, Trinidad and Tobago
* San Diego, United States
* San Jose de Costa Rica
* San Juan de Puerto Rico
* Santiago de Chile
* Seoul, Korea
* T'ai-Pei, Taiwan
* Victoria, Seychelles

Anyone have any more long-hauls that BA gave up on recently? I'm sure there''s lots of UK & European ones, so let's leave those be for now.
Also, do you know of any other major carrier that's done what BA have? Of course, we'll have to exclude those that went tits-up, such as Sabena and the like!

16 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineSleak76 From Kuwait, joined Nov 2000, 345 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (10 years 2 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 1833 times:

Instead of "fickle BA", maybe that title should read "BA's better use of investment"?
ROI - Return on Invenstment. In other words, some of those destinations dropped by BA simply do not make a good return to the airline. That aircraft plying a route with such low returns could be well-utilized on another, higher-yielding route.
I think that just normal business sense.

Btw, you can safely add KUL to your list above  Smile It was dropped, I believe, by back in summer 2001. However, I read from earlier posts of a.net that BA might be reinstating that service.

Guess we'll just have to wait and see how their Far East re-expansion goes.



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User currently offlineQm001 From Portugal, joined Mar 2004, 281 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (10 years 2 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 1776 times:

I can give you a few more!

LLW
LUN
FIH

 Smile/happy/getting dizzy

I must admit that if there motive was to return to profitability for the future good of the airline, then I can easily understand that. The problem is that as far as I understand, BA will have t cut a lot more to keep in the black. In which case are these cuits the right move???

QM001 (167 Air Malawi)



I wish there was still a flying boat service on the African Lakes!
User currently offlineDelayedagain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (10 years 2 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 1693 times:

They still fly to LUN !! And still to Seychelles too. and have added Luanda and slowly add services to SAfrica (tho only JNB and CPT, no sign of back to DUR), so they must look out out for where they can turn a profit

User currently offlineJasepl From India, joined Jul 2004, 3582 posts, RR: 39
Reply 4, posted (10 years 2 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 1688 times:

I'm not criticising BA or anything. I'm all for not flying where you can't make money. Its a privately owned company and should be free to fly or stop flying wherever and whenever. But still, its a huge number of destinations that have disappeared off their map! And thanks guys for the updates, I have a new list now:

* Adelaide, Australia
* Anchorage, United States
* Auckland, New Zealand
* Brisbane, Australia
* Cancun, Mexico
* Charlotte, United States
* Colombo, Sri Lanka
* Durban, South Africa
* Fukuoka, Japan
* Gaborone, Botswana
* Havana, Cuba
* Jakarta, Indonesia
* Kano, Nigeria
* Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
* Lilongwe, Malawi
* Lima, Peru
* Luxor, Egypt
* Manila, Philippines
* Montego Bay, Jamaica
* Nagoya, Japan
* Osaka, Japan
* Perth, Australia
* Pittsburgh, United States
* Port of Spain, Trinidad and Tobago
* San Diego, United States
* San Jose de Costa Rica
* San Juan de Puerto Rico
* Santiago de Chile
* Seoul, Korea
* T'ai-Pei, Taiwan
* Tbilisi, Georgia
* Victoria, Seychelles

They're still running Lusaka a couple of times a week, non-stop. Did they ever do Kinshasa? If so, when did they stop? As for Seychelles, I thought they had ended the tag on to the Nairobi flights somrtime this summer?

Also, I get a feeling I'm missing a few Caribbean / LatAm destinations... Am I?


User currently offlineDelayedagain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (10 years 2 months 2 days ago) and read 1650 times:

bandar seri begawan? when I was a nipper they flew there for sure!
Christchurch, NZ also (??)

How far are you going back? I'm sure the early BA (immediately after BOAC but before privatisation) flew also to panama city, new orleans etc?

And don't forget much of ''their'' current network is operated by other carriers, so should we also include those? it'd leave BA with about 30 cities of their own.

World's favourite indeed. Who says? How can they even get away with saying that?


User currently offlineSleak76 From Kuwait, joined Nov 2000, 345 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (10 years 2 months 2 days ago) and read 1605 times:

Delayedagain

And don't forget much of ''their'' current network is operated by other carriers, so should we also include those? it'd leave BA with about 30 cities of their own.

Sorry to dissapoint ya but:

British Airways network (including British Airways CitiExpress)
- 158 destinations in 74 countries


British Airways flight number network
- 338 destinations in 106 countries

oneworld network
- 562 destinations in 131 countries

Extended network
- 606 destinations in 141 countries
(source: ba.com)

75 countries they still fly to.. guess that's why they call themselves the world's favorite. If they weren't, then you'd see them flying 30 destinations in 20 countries, instead!

Cheers.




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User currently offlineDonder10 From Canada, joined Oct 2001, 6660 posts, RR: 21
Reply 7, posted (10 years 2 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1572 times:

World's favourite indeed. Who says? How can they even get away with saying that?

They don't Big grin But before they changed their slogan they carried more foreigners than any other airline in the world.


User currently offlineFlyCaledonian From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2090 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (10 years 2 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1530 times:

* Adelaide, Australia - Served via SIN with QF codeshare. Was third or fourth stop with BA.
* Anchorage, United States - Was stop on way to NRT - who else serves today (Longhaul)?
* Auckland, New Zealand - Served via HKG with CX or via LAX with QF (Codeshares). Was a third or fourth stop with BA.
* Brisbane, Australia - Dropped to allow extra SYD service. Served via SIN with QF codeshare.
* Cancun, Mexico - Only lasted a few years as a leisure route from LGW.
* Charlotte, United States - Started when partner of USAir, dropped post 9/11.
* Colombo, Sri Lanka - Only revived for a couple of years mid-90s
* Durban, South Africa - Was extension of JNB flight - now served by Comair (Franchise) from CPT and JNB.
* Fukuoka, Japan - When did BA serve? Must have lasted a year or two at most.
* Gaborone, Botswana - Okay, dropped completely. Was an extension of JNB flight.
* Havana, Cuba - As for Cancun - shortlived leisure service from LGW.
* Jakarta, Indonesia - Introduced in early 1990s, dropped during Asian Economic crisis.
* Kano, Nigeria - Again, dropped now - no service.
* Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia - Dropped during Asian economic crisis. Rumours of return?
* Lilongwe, Malawi - Was served via NBO. Now served via NBO by Air Kenya Aviation (Franchise)
* Lima, Peru - Again, how long did this service last?
* Luxor, Egypt - Again, didn't last long.
* Manila, Philippines - Was latterly an extension of HKG flight. Now served via HKG by CX codeshare.
* Montego Bay, Jamaica - Dropped to focus on Kingston.
* Nagoya, Japan - Dropped during Asian Economic crisis.
* Osaka, Japan - Dropped during Asian Economic crisis.
* Perth, Australia - Dropped to allow focus on SYD/MEL. QF restarting thrice weekly. Alternatively connect at SIN onto QF codeshare.
* Pittsburgh, United States - Dropped shortly after collapse of USAir codeshares.
* Port of Spain, Trinidad and Tobago - Dropped - unknown reason - yields?
* San Diego, United States - Dropped post 9/11.
* San Jose de Costa Rica - As for Cancun - shortlived leisure service from LGW.
* San Juan de Puerto Rico - Dropped.
* Santiago de Chile - Was served via GRU, GIG or EZE. Now connect at GRU with Lan Chile codeshare.
* Seoul, Korea - Dropped during Asian Economic crisis. Now served via HKG with CX codeshare.
* T'ai-Pei, Taiwan - Was latterly an extension of HKG flight. Now served via CX codeshare.
* Tbilisi, Georgia - Was served by BMed (Franchise). Dropped due to Georgian government.
* Victoria, Seychelles - Ended in June.


So a number of reasons for flights ending. Some were a second, third or even fourth stop of a flight. Easier to serve on a codeshare basis. BA served AKL three times weekly in the early 1990s. With the CX and QF codeshares it is now twice daily with one stop (& aircraft change) in HKG or LAX. The franchise carriers have allowed other destinations to be dropped, plus others added - Port Elizabeth in South Africa for example. British Mediterranean even operates direct from LHR to destinations BA feels it can no longer itself - Amman, Beirut, Damascus, Khartoum, Tehran - plus new destinations too.


And some of those routes listed as dropped were shortlived introductions in the 1990s. Others have thrived (Either new or reintroduced): -

* Abuja, Nigeria.
* Aleppo, Syria (BMed).
* Alexandria, Egypt (BMed).
* Baltimore, USA.
* Bishkek, (BMed).
* Buenos Aires, Argentina.
* Denver, USA.
* Doha, Qatar.
* Entebbe, Uganda.
* Grand Cayman, Cayman Islands.
* Kolkata, India.
* Luanda, Angola.
* Mexico City, Mexico.
* Phoenix, USA.
* Providenciales, Turks & Caicos Islands.
* Tashkent, (BMed).
* Tobago, Trinidad & Tobago.
* Yekaterinberg, Russia (BMed).
* Yerevan, (Bmed).


So overall BA has stopped serving a few destinations, serves others via franchise carriers (From a focus city or LHR in BMed's case) or via codeshares (Largely OneWorld partners). I wouldn't say BA was been fickle, rather it has found the best way to serve a destination. In AKL's case is it better to switch to CX or QF at HKG or LAX (One stop, aircraft change), or stop off at SIN, SYD, BNE and then AKL with BA (To give one example routing)? Know which I'd prefer.

The BA longhaul fleet in 1989 consisted of 39 747-100/747-200s, 8 TriStar 200s, 8 DC-10-30s and 7 Concordes - 62 aircraft. Today it is made up of 57 747-436s, 43 777-236s and about a dozen 767-336s - 112 aircraft. I think I'll finish my essay there!



Let's Go British Caledonian!
User currently offlineBoysteve From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 939 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (10 years 2 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1438 times:

Maybe this 'fickleness' has kept BA out of administration, something certain US airlines could lear from.
Sleak76 is right, better use of investment!


User currently offlineJasepl From India, joined Jul 2004, 3582 posts, RR: 39
Reply 10, posted (10 years 2 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 1319 times:

FlyCaledonian and Boysteve, like I said, "I'm all for not flying where you can't make money". BA aren't a public service that they must continue service whether or not they make money. They should start or maintain service only if the economics (and often politics) are right. All in all, its the right way. If they can't get the economics to work, they should stop. Or its hello administration!
That said, whatever the reasons may be, its a fair few destinations they've abandoned in the last dozen years or so. And I'm not talking about the likes of MSY, CHC and BWN - which were prolly dropped before most of us were born!
Can you think of any other carriers that have dropped so many long hauls in the recent past?

As for BWI, EZE, DOH, EBB, CCU, MEX - as far as I know these have been served for years and years and aren't new services or re-introductions.


User currently offlineSleak76 From Kuwait, joined Nov 2000, 345 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (10 years 2 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1280 times:

Jasepl,

As for BWI, EZE, DOH, EBB, CCU, MEX - as far as I know these have been served for years and years and aren't new services or re-introductions.

Acutally DOH is a re-introduction to BA's network. It was dropped in 91 and re-introduced with the advent of their summer 98 schedule.



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User currently offlineFlyCaledonian From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2090 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (10 years 2 months 23 hours ago) and read 1264 times:

BWI, EZE, EBB, CCU and MEX weren't operating in the late 1980s. They were either new or reintroduced after a hiatus in the early 1990s. My response to your list was designed to show that the services dropped were either new routes that didn't last, or ones that can be served better via codeshares or franchises.

DUR was an extension of the LHR-JNB service. Is it better to fly a 747 on the JNB-DUR leg, with all the necessary crew costs, etc, or ask the connecting passengers to change onto a Comair flight, operating as BA, where they can offer increased frequency as well.

Of the list KIX, KUL PER and BNE all had high frequency before being dropped. They are the ones, plus maybe SAN, PIT and CLT that maybe could return in a few years if things pick up.

As for the others, I don't see what you're getting at? Lots of carriers have dropped international routes. QF has dropped FCO, with CDG to follow. It's Asian network has also been cut back. The US carriers have dropped many routes too - in particular UA & NW in Asia, AA, UA and DL in Europe.

Don't foret too that BA under Bob Ayling made a decision to move away from carrying lots of transit passengers, particularly in economy. The likes of KL, LH and AF still carry a lot of these, and thus can support more routes that maybe they couldn't otherwise (KL in paticular maintains an impessive Asian network).

BA may not serve the route itself in many cases, but the majority of those dropped destinations are still part of the extended BA network. I'd class BA as more fickle if they didn't even offer connections to these anymore. As for Europe, several routes have gone. But then GB Airways maintains an impressive network for BA to Spain, Portugal and the Canaries that BA would not be able to do today against the LCCs.

Now if we want to talk about fickle maybe what happened to its regional operations when it acquired its UK franchises might be better.... But hey, I'm not opening that can of worms!

Finally, to add to your list Jasepl of dropped destinations (1988 onwards): -

* Abidjan, Ivory Coast.
* Aden, Yemen.
* Addis Ababa (Reintroduced by British Mediterranean 2001).
* Almaty, Kazakhstan (Transferred to British Mediterranean).
* Amman, Jordan (Transferred to British Mediterranean).
* Baghdad, Iraq.
* Baku, Azerbaijan (Transferred to British Mediterranean).
* Banjul, The Gambia.
* Beirut, Lebanon (Transferred to British Mediterranean).
* Damascus, Syria (Transferred to British Mediterranean).
* Dhahran, Saudi Arabia.
* Freetown, Sierra Leone.
* Karachi, Pakistan.
* Khartoum, Sudan (Reintroduced by British Mediterranean 2003).
* Monrovia, Liberia.
* Sana'a, Yemen.
* Tehran, Iran (Transferred to British Mediterranean).



Let's Go British Caledonian!
User currently offlineDonder10 From Canada, joined Oct 2001, 6660 posts, RR: 21
Reply 13, posted (10 years 2 months 22 hours ago) and read 1203 times:

FlyCal,
do you know when Freetown was dropped and what the route was before it was stopped?
Thanks.


User currently offlineODAFZ From Afghanistan, joined Jul 2004, 357 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (10 years 2 months 22 hours ago) and read 1194 times:

Dear Jasepl,

Other major Airlines that have abandonned services or routes because of low yields or restructuring we can add Middle East Airlines AirLiban which dropped the following stations (in the last 10 years):
Madrid
Bruxelles
Tunis
Berlin
Bucharest (operated briefly)
Copenhaguen
Zurich
Aden
Khartoum
Muscat
Bahrain
Doha (in codeshare now with Qatar Airways)
Damascus
Teheran
Sao Paulo
Singapore
Kuala Lmpur
Sydney
Colombo (operated briefly for 2-3 years)
Another Company is Swiss which drastically reduced its network in 2003
Regards



User currently offlineFlyCaledonian From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2090 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (10 years 2 months 18 hours ago) and read 1135 times:

Donder10, the flight in Winter '88/'89 was BA083 London Gatwick - Banjul - Freetown - Monrovia operated by a DC-10 (I think the route was ex BCal). In Summer '89 the route was timetabled for a TriStar 200. In both cases the return flight was BA082. Not sure when it was dropped but a Summer '94 timetable I have doesn't have it listed.


Let's Go British Caledonian!
User currently offlineG-CIVP From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 1325 posts, RR: 10
Reply 16, posted (10 years 2 months 18 hours ago) and read 1124 times:

FlyCaledonian - some nice analysis on the reasons for BA dropping the routes. Half the problem with the Osaka being dropped was due to the high landing charges.

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