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Cost To Airline Of Flying 747 LHR-JFK?  
User currently offlineBCAL From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2004, 3384 posts, RR: 16
Posted (10 years 2 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 17621 times:

I have often wondered how much it costs on average an airline like BA or UA to fly a fully laden (in passenger terms) 744 from LHR to JFK in terms of fuel costs, landing fees at both airports, fees paid to ATC, any fees paid for rights to fly over land, provision of food and beverages, servicing of aircraft at both ends and any other direct costs other than crewing, aircraft acquisition/leasing and maintenance costs and insurance. Could some respected users please enlighten me?



MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
15 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineRwylie77 From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 367 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (10 years 2 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 17563 times:

You would think it would be cheaper to fly a 777, which American and United seem to predominantly do, while BA stick with the 744...

User currently offlineSafetyDude From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3795 posts, RR: 15
Reply 2, posted (10 years 2 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 17458 times:

UA to fly a fully laden (in passenger terms) 744 from LHR to JFK
The JFK folks have not seen a UAL 744 in quite some time. VS and AI also fly 744s, and BA does have a few 777 flights.

As for the cost, sorry, but I do not know.
 Smile
-Will



"She Flew For What We Stand For"
User currently offlineArsenal@LHR From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 7792 posts, RR: 19
Reply 3, posted (10 years 2 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 17283 times:
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It costs around £20,000 to fill a 747 with fuel for a 7+ hour flight across the atlantic. This was few years ago, but with rising fuel costs in the last year or two it might be higher than this.



In Arsene we trust!!
User currently offlineRichard28 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2003, 1619 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (10 years 2 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 17211 times:

You would think it would be cheaper to fly a 777, which American and United seem to predominantly do, while BA stick with the 744...

Out of interest what are the cost per seat mile on a fully laden 744 compared to a 772 ?


User currently offlineGeoffm From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 2111 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (10 years 2 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 17203 times:

I must admit I'm guesstimating here, but landing fees and suchlike for each airport could cost around £1000 each. This is based on published smaller airport fees (which are cheaper, and for smaller aircraft) and thus proportioned upwards.

I wonder how many green shield stamps you get for £20,000 of fuel... must be able to get a pack of gum for that, surely?

Geoff M.


User currently offlineLrgt From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 710 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (10 years 2 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 17028 times:

All in...about $50,000 each way...maybe more considering the lavish first class (and economy for that matter) catering on that route. While someone mentioned it costs $40,000 just to fill the dammn thing with fuel, it only burns about 1/3 tank on that route (this is a plane that can go around the world with reserves to spare). With fuel burn at 2200 GPH and a 6-hour flight, that comes out to 13,200 gallons or about $15,000 at today's jet fuel prices at EWR. Crew, Ground Staff, A/C Lease, Catering, and $$Insurance$$ must be figured in along with the airport fees.

However, they can cut about $10,000 of the top of their operating costs from the cargo revenue.



Don't bring up the NW DC9's unless you have to!
User currently offlineWhitehatter From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (10 years 2 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 17015 times:

Er...round the world?

Roughly about a third of the way for the 747 and 777. Have a look in the aircraft data section, that'll give you the ranges for the models.

BA use the 744 because they can, and because they can fill it with people and cargo. Same with VS. AA don't have any 747s nowadays so their ops are 777 based, and United are happy with the 777 on the route.


User currently offlineFLY777UAL From United States of America, joined May 1999, 4512 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (10 years 2 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 16962 times:

By 2001 fuel prices, it cost approximately $6,700 per hour for a 747-400 versus $4,200 per hour for a 777-200. Trade off of operating the higher cost 747 versus the 777 are leasing rates as well as the additional revenue generated by the more than 100 additional seats.

F L Y 7 7 7 U A L


User currently offlineLrgt From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 710 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (10 years 2 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 16950 times:

Also you have to keep in mind the extras such as the entertainment system, blankets, and headphones. VS gives out a lot of goodies, but that is not surprising considering that Branson started the company because he did not like the headphones that BA gave out!  Smile True Story LOL


Don't bring up the NW DC9's unless you have to!
User currently offlineBCAL From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2004, 3384 posts, RR: 16
Reply 10, posted (10 years 2 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 16612 times:

I have just been working out some rough figures for revenue on a BA flight JFK-LHR. Assuming that the aircraft used was a 744 and all seats occupied at current lowest fares quoted on ba.com there would be

14 First Class @ $6,000 = $84,000
72 Club Class @ $2,250 = $162,000
34 World Traveller Plus @ $520 = $17,680
177 Economy @ $325 = $57,525

Ignoring any cargo (which could yield up to another $10,000 for BA), the total revenue for a full flight would be $321,205. Assuming that it cost the previously quoted $50,000 for the direct costs of the flight, then that is a potential profit of over $270,000 for BA before aircraft finance/leasing charges, crew, insurance and other airline overheads.

Of course few flights are 100% full but with 70% load factors we could be looking at a flight operation surplus of $200,000 per flight before aircraft leasing/finance, crew and insurance, so it makes me curious how airlines like Delta can loose so much money, even allowing for the fact that they might have many short haul flights that are not so profitable.



MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
User currently offlineSafetyDude From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3795 posts, RR: 15
Reply 11, posted (10 years 2 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 16429 times:

Of course few flights are 100% full but with 70% load factors we could be looking at a flight operation surplus of $200,000
Also, do not forget that some people might pay higher fares, as well as lower fares, but my guess is that BA makes sells a few "higher" fares that business people use to change their ticket, get extra FFP miles, etc.

 Smile
-Will



"She Flew For What We Stand For"
User currently offlineAdh214 From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 360 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (10 years 2 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 16385 times:

The cost could also be calculated by multipling the airline's per revenue mile cost by the mileage.

I believe most airlines have a per revenue mile cost of $0.07 to $0.11 (I will assume $0.09 for this example.) If a 747 has about 410 seats and the distance between JFK and LHR is about 3400 miles, the cost would be $125,460 each way (0.09*3400*410=125460)



User currently offlineLaddb From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 220 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (10 years 2 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 16316 times:

....it makes me curious how airlines like Delta can loose so much money, even allowing for the fact that they might have many short haul flights that are not so profitable.

Because as you said, this is before aircraft leasing/finance, crew and insurance. And if you don't know those costs, then you can't make a prediction about profit or loss. And don't forget ground staff pay, airport rental for ticket counter space, baggage handling fees, equipment costs, maintenance and all its associated costs, advertising, plus all the management support, accounting, and the list goes on and on...


User currently offlineBilly From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2000, 895 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (10 years 2 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 16299 times:

In terms of airport charges there is not much in cost for landing a 777 or a 744 at LHR. Landing fees cost about £600 - quite cheap compared to other European airports. There is also a passenger load supplement that airports charge. This works out at about $20/departing passenger. I leave you to do the maths.

Pax and cargo handling can be relatively compeitive at LHR given the compeition on the ground for visiting airlines. BA and BMI are stuck with their own overheads, even though they have thrid-partied a lot of activities out to sub-contactors.


User currently offlineStargoldLHR From Heard and McDonald Islands, joined Feb 2004, 1529 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (10 years 2 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 16236 times:

I recalled last year it being revealed BA said a 747 cost $100,000 to fly each way across the atlantic in wages, fuel, maintenace etc, before fixed costs.

At the same time Concorde was costing $120,000.

One of BA's arguments for dumping Concorde was based on this. Concorde carried 100 passengers, whereas the cost of a 747 was split by 400 meaning from business logic it was less risk.

However the profit for BA on Concorde was the writing down of the A/Frames values back in the 1980's, thus they were flying something in aviation terms had minimal fixed costs.



So far in 2008 45 flights and Gold already. JFK, IAD, LGA, SIN, HKG, NRT, AKL, PPT, LAX still to book ! Home Airport LCY
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