Caravelle From Norway, joined Aug 2000, 666 posts, RR: 1 Reply 7, posted (9 years 4 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 7590 times:
this is not just a "shit will happen"-thing.
This is a major breach of security, and is bound to reflect on the Ryanair image, tarnished as it already is.
I mean, the story is in the news here in Norway, too, as it is bound to be in most countries served by FR.
RJ100 From Switzerland, joined Nov 2000, 4112 posts, RR: 31 Reply 8, posted (9 years 4 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 7575 times:
Yes, the rules need to be followed. But believe me in a big company things like this happen-even if they can not be tolerated- they can not be avoided completely.
Safety regulations get broken every day a few thousand times in every country in all industries. However the media are only making it public when airlines are involved- or even better for them- Ryanair.
RJ100 From Switzerland, joined Nov 2000, 4112 posts, RR: 31 Reply 10, posted (9 years 4 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 7529 times:
Sammyhostie, I completely agree with you. We cannot tolerate it. What I want to say is that media are "specialized" in bashing certain airlines. Only because Ryanair has low fares they will write that this is the reason for safety problems etc. but safety problems can occur due to different reasons. Maybe FR has just grown too fast recently etc.
Methinks that some media are making a bigger story out of this than they would if it would have happened with a "normal carrier".
But again, we cannot tolerate such an incident and FR needs to take action.
Ben From Switzerland, joined Aug 1999, 1391 posts, RR: 51 Reply 11, posted (9 years 4 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 7503 times:
No-one breaks safety rules in aviation. you cannot afford to.
For someone who is "in the industry" that is a very naive thing to say. I personally know that safety rules are frequently broken. Maybe not from a cabin crew point of view, but even on 'respectable' airlines I have seen/heard of rules being seriously bent, mostly on the flight deck. Yes, 'snitch box' technology prevents it a lot, but the vast majority of aircraft don't have those recorders.
The two factors which cause the bending to be done in the first place are no surprise: Money (pressure from above) and Time (don't go-around, we need to get to the hotel before the bar closes).
DoorsToManual From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 12, posted (9 years 4 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 7497 times:
No-one breaks safety rules in aviation
Actually, it happens more or less every day, at every airline. I totally agree, SOPs should be followed to the letter, but humans will be humans, and I see SOPs and Memos ignored all the time (and not just at my Co., you'll be surprised what can go on at other UK-based airlines).
Irrespective of the above, I'm quite shocked that the Chief Pilot at Ryanair (or ANY pilot) would allow such a thing to happen. It's totally unacceptable & dangerous for all sorts of reasons.
I too admire Ryanair's ideas, but this is just bloody stupid, apart from being illegal etc. etc.
Srilankan_340 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2002, 201 posts, RR: 2 Reply 13, posted (9 years 4 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 7490 times:
Before all of you anti O'Leary start shouting,
Remember Ryan air is a large organisation and like any other company you cannot control the actions of a minority of individuals.
In my opinion, its not Ryanair that is to blame , but the Captain of that particular flight who is the guilty party. He/She should have refused to fly or off loaded these extra souls. Ultimately, that's why the Captain is paid Â£'000 and why it takes seniority to get to that level.
The captain is in charge of his plane and that is it. He is responsible for the safe operation of the aircraft and the passengers and crew on it.
Sack the flight deck crew and not bash O'Leary or the chief pilot or hold them responsible for this stupidity of the Captain!
People are often unreasonable, illogical and self- centered: Forgive them anyway - Mother Theresa
MD-11 forever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 16, posted (9 years 4 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 7436 times:
Great, the flight deck crew is responsible..... Well, Why did the Chief pilot resign for a breach of rules HE was agreeing to? I assume the crew was talking to him as they didn't like the idea to fly the plane in this illegal set-up. So, following your logic, if they refused to do their job, I am 100% sure that MOL himself would have caused them a hard time not to say kicked them out as a compensation for the lost revenue.....
FraT From Germany, joined Sep 2003, 1101 posts, RR: 1 Reply 17, posted (9 years 4 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 7431 times:
Correct me if I'm wrong but by reading the thread starter I understand that the chief pilot himself allowed that or was forced by anybody to do it. And it became public because he resigned.
So Ryanair and/or the chief pilot are definitely to blame.
Dexter From Austria, joined Jul 2000, 261 posts, RR: 1 Reply 18, posted (9 years 4 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 7361 times:
I'm not sure I understand some of the reactions in this thread. The whole thing shows that FR is actually committed to safety. They fired the F/As who breached the rules and the captain resigned. I mean didn't just ignore it.
WGW2707 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 1197 posts, RR: 37 Reply 20, posted (9 years 4 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 7279 times:
There are two points that could be made here more or less:
1. O'Leary, inspite of being a frightening pathological nut-case, in all probability had nothing to do with this incident. I would be hugely suprised if Ryanair had any corporate policy of seating passengers in jumpseats.
2. This incident nonetheless did happen at Ryanair, which in some respects might demonstrate a "corporate culture problem". I've never heard of another airline having revenue PAX occupy jumpseats, and I don't think at any other airline is there such an all-costs-must-be-cut attitude. This corporate culture I would argue is incredibly dangerous. If every employee in the company is looking for ways to cut costs, some of the ideas they come up with are bound to be bad, and possibly unsafe.
When Ryanair employees start infringing on safety in an effort to control costs, this of course crosses the line between what is acceptable and what is unacceptable, in anyone's definition (except perhaps that of O'Leary The Mad). We've seen LCCs engage in dubious operational practises in the past in the name of cost cutting (see Air Florida and ValuJet), and so it is not inconceivable that Ryanair could be bending the rules a bit.
What needs to occur, and I've said it before and I'll say it again, is the Ryanair board needs to step in and gain control of the situation, disposing of O'Leary. A new CEO could change the corporate culture from a spendthrift-one to a wiser value-oriented corporate culture, working to improve the image of the airline, the quality of service provided, and the general corporate culture to one less inclined to potentially disastrous circumstances.
Saab2000 From Switzerland, joined Jun 2001, 1608 posts, RR: 11 Reply 24, posted (9 years 4 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 7207 times:
I have been lurking for a while but have not posted for a long time. My Swiss friends will remember some "spirited" discussions we have had in the past!
Anyway, I just wanted to comment on what RJ100 said. He said that some media outlets make it their specialty to pick on certain airlines or certain destinations. They have their "pet projects". During my years in Switzerland Crossair was picked on severely by the media. Then after the formation of SWISS, they became the favorite target of the media.
Sometimes the criticism of Crossair was fair, but as often as not the so-called journalists really do not know much about aviation, so their views and reports cannot really be taken too seriously. Obviously, if F/As were sitting on the toilets for take-off and landing that would constitute a serious safety breach and must be investigated. But the mainstream media often reports things which are, if not false, gross misrepresentations of what really happened.
The criticism of SWISS was also generally negative, unfair and often just plain false.
I was not there on the Ryanair plane. Neither were any of the journalists. Neither were any of us. But it certainly seems like someone has picked out Ryanair for criticism and it hardly seems balanced. I am no longer in Europe (most of the time at least) but I do pick up the media reports on the internet. I do not see the same level of criticism of other airlines.
IMHO, someone has a bone to pick with Ryanair and it is likely not totally fair.
It will be interesting to see what happens to the chief pilot and what the real explanation of the incident is. If it turns out that the flight attendants really were on the toilets, then there surely needs to be consequences. I can hardly believe that a chief pilot would depart knowing that this was going on, though.
25 777236ER: Cheap, shoddy, boo hoo! Ryanair are making money - not many other airlines can say that, least of all MYT! If they breach safety regulations then they
26 Skymonster: Where's Pe@rson when you need him - I'm surprised he's not on here arguing that it was a minor infraction and a reasonable act any airline would take
27 Jamotcx: My airline puts safety and S.O.P's first before everything. If it compromises safety, we dont do it. end of. LOL I dont know about ur MyTravel ops dow
28 Sammyhostie: We get comission at LGW on meals sold. but i dont know what happens to the rest of it or what happens at MAN. We sell quite a few on our flights, as u
29 Rb211ltn: Let's not turn this into another Ryanair-bashing exercise. I am neutral on the Ryanair debate, I have BA concessions so I don't have to fly with them.
30 Caravelle: Lawdy! Stop making excuses on behalf of Mr O'Leary, will you please? This is a question of company culture, and the O'Leary is the capo as far as such
31 777236ER: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3920503.stm They weren't the crew of the flight. They were off-duty. Looks like the safety of the passengers wasn't comp
32 Caravelle: Which makes it legal? We know this 777236ER. Have for some time.... Since Sammyhostie posted this thread, in fact. - caravelle
33 Sammyhostie: Thanks Caravelle, Thank god somenoe reads the post!
34 Widebody: And it wasn't the Chief Pilot, it was a senior pilot. Ryanair has a good few senior pilots.
35 Pe@rson: What a load of bo!!ocks! Wow, one alledged incident. BA has had two FATAL crashes (http://www.airsafe.com/events/airlines/bab.htm) killing a total of
36 LTBEWR: I recall that in the early 1980's a PanAm flight from some Carribbean island to the states, I believe a 727, had a couple too many pax than seats on b
37 Rogerthat: A few years ago a friend of mine flew from Newark to Tel Aviv on El Al. He told me he was seated in the crew rest seats on take-off, then moved to the
38 Caravelle: Pe@rson, thanks for calling me an ignorant fool. I really appreciate that. - caravelle
39 EGFFbmi: If you want to start blaming and pointing the finger at airlines I can tell you that Air France or Air Chance as the GEASES Engine Facility staff like
40 Sammyhostie: Rogerthat, This is done quite reguarly, but is of no safety issue because all seats have seatbelts on. Crew's partner;s often travel on rest seats on
41 LVZXV: I don't claim to have the most valid opinion in the forum but I have flown some 24 times on FR in the last 5 years--and on 17 different aircraft. Unti
42 Skymonster: LOL... Well at least Pe@rson ran true to form! For what its worth, accidents are just that - accidents - rarely are "accidents" intentional acts. Even
43 JBirdAV8r: Money (pressure from above) and Time (don't go-around, we need to get to the hotel before the bar closes). Ben, If you think that the latter statement
44 777236ER: Last August, they nearly had a nasty accident with my sister on board when they overloaded one of the 732s on a hot day and it took-off with less than
45 Snnams: "due to their illegally short turnarounds".... And from where did you get the idea that they were illegal? and what did an aborted take off have to do
46 JBirdAV8r: Last August, they nearly had a nasty accident with my sister on board when they overloaded one of the 732s on a hot day and it took-off with less than
47 LVZXV: 777236ER, Snnams, JBirdAV8r: Just to set the record straight, the airport was BIQ. I saw the plane's late and shallow climb-out from RWY 27 while driv
48 Ckfred: This is a little off the subject, but I was on an AA 737-800 from ORD to BOS. After the F/As finished the safety briefing and sat down, a woman got up
49 Jc2354: Anybody have any idea how they got caught/who turned them in? Regards, Jack
50 Wally236er: What will happen when FR get rid of there toilets where will the crew be hidden? or are they going to have crewless flights lol!! Typical FR cost cutt
51 NorCalSF: FR should face a stiff fine for this event as encouragement to train its staff so that such a shocking breach of safety never occurs again.
52 777236ER: Sorry, how was it a shocking breach of safety? The only danger was to the crew, who presumably knew enough to judge the risks. Hence they put themselv
53 777236ER: Just to set the record straight, the airport was BIQ. I saw the plane's late and shallow climb-out from RWY 27 while driving away from the airport, bu
54 Jeffrito: But did they at least tidy up while they were sitting in there?
55 SafetyDude: I am still puzzled as to what he was thinking when he did that. -Will
56 Planemaker: So ATC at the airport, pilots at the aeroclub and you saw an unsafe incident and didn't think to tell anyone, apart from whining on an internet forum?
57 Blackbird1331: Well, I don't think I will ever fly FR, but if I do, I hope it is just from one end of the runway to the other, and I hope my seat is on the wing.
58 LVZXV: Planemaker: Why would I invent the story? I would have been far happier if the plane had rotated at the normal point on the runway without incident. U
59 Planemaker: Although the 737-200 is advertised as requiring a 6,625ft take-off run it usually gets off in MUCH less. Of course it gets off in MUCH less! 6,625 ft
60 4x-eld: Hi Rogerthat, What your friend told you is true if he were flying as a non-rev. Sometimes if flights are full non rev has the option of jump seating (
61 Wally236er: 777236er says "Sorry, how was it a shocking breach of safety? The only danger was to the crew, who presumably knew enough to judge the risks. Hence th