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AA's A300s Next To Retire  
User currently offlineFlagshipAZ From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3419 posts, RR: 14
Posted (9 years 12 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 10380 times:

Hi folks...
Just got the latest edition of AW&ST in the mail, and there is a small paragraph stating that the 34 A300s is likely to be retired in 2008. American wants to reduce the number of types to 5...MD-80s, 738s, 752, 763s & 772s. The article also stated that AA tried to move up the lease expirations with Airbus, but was unsuccessful. AA owns 10 A300s & leased 24 more. I'm wondering what will become of the A300 fleet once they're phased out. I'm thinking Fed Ex perhaps. Thoughts & opinions anyone? Regards.


"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
66 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13511 posts, RR: 62
Reply 1, posted (9 years 12 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 10096 times:
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This still leaves the question of what will replace them, since AA loves the cargo revenue the AB6 brings in, especially to/from the Caribbean.

The 763s and 752s are great, but they don't have the cargo capacity the AB6 provides.




"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlinePROSA From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5630 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (9 years 12 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 10092 times:

The A300's big cargo capacity is well-suited to the Caribbean routes on which most of them operate. It won't be easy to replace them in that respect.


"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
User currently offlineDIA From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3273 posts, RR: 28
Reply 3, posted (9 years 12 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 10066 times:

2008? Wow, only four more years, or 3 1/2 actually, to try to catch an A300 in the U.S. On second thought, A^A will probably start to retire them in 2008, which may take some time to pull all of them completely from the line. Seems to me these birds will retire from A^A with plenty of life left on their frames.

Yes, I too think the A300s will go to cargo carriers.

[Edited 2004-07-28 18:01:29]


Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
User currently offlineNyc777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5732 posts, RR: 48
Reply 4, posted (9 years 12 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 10052 times:

Perhaps they're setting themselves up to get a few 7E7. Will those be able to replace the A300 cargo capacity? If so then then AA might be the special surprise buyer of the 7E7 for '08.


That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineMx330 From Mexico, joined Oct 2002, 827 posts, RR: 13
Reply 5, posted (9 years 12 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 10006 times:
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I've never figured out the plane that replaces the AB6 in AA's Caribbean routes... 75's and 76's are not as efficient as the A300 is.

I think 763 would be the "less worst" option and I am a Boeing guy!

Juan APM



All Canon! EOS 5D mk III, 8mm, 17-40, 24-105, 70-200 f2.8, 100-400L
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16819 posts, RR: 51
Reply 6, posted (9 years 12 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 9993 times:

AA will probably use 777s on routes where the extra cargo capacity is warranted, for example JFK-Santo Domingo.

CO operates 777s from EWR-Santo Domingo.

AA has a huge fleet of 777s, they can get extra utilization on them from JFK and MIA by having them do quick turn arounds to the Carribean where most of the extra cargo capacity is warranted. Instead of having the 777s sit on the ground at JFK or MIA they can do quick round trips to the Islands and be back in time for a late evening/early morning Departure to Tokyo, Europe etc..

That's how CO operates their widebody fleet, they fly 767-200s to SJU and 767-400s/777s to Santo Domingo that would otherwise be sitting on the ground at EWR.

AA will not be able to replace each A300 flight with a 777, however they probably know which ones have the highest demand for cargo and can thus deploy their assets accordingly.

Some AA A300 routes do not carry much cargo at all, such as JFK-Cancun. That route makes more sense operating as a daily 757 or even a twice daily 757.

Pan Am had 747-200 flights from JFK to Santo Domingo and St.Maarten that were also operating Trans-Atlantic routes from JFK, they were getting extra utilization out of the aircraft.

Eventually I can see AA doing the same with their JFK-LAX flights, eventually they are going to retire the 767-200s and probably replace them with Internationaly configured 767-300s that are based at JFK.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineLY4XELD From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 857 posts, RR: 15
Reply 7, posted (9 years 12 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 9942 times:

Perhaps they're setting themselves up to get a few 7E7

How will introducing the 7E7 help reduce the number of a/c types in the AA fleet? They want to REDUCE the # of types in the fleet.

Do they have plans to retire all their 762ERs or will they remain?



That's why we're here.
User currently offlineNyc777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5732 posts, RR: 48
Reply 8, posted (9 years 12 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 9887 times:

I still think they're going to buy a good number of 7E7 for an 08 delivery timeframe.


That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16819 posts, RR: 51
Reply 9, posted (9 years 12 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 9885 times:

"How will introducing the 7E7 help reduce the number of a/c types in the AA fleet"

In the short term they would replace AA's A300s, over the long term they would also replace AA's massive fleet of 767s.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlinePetazulu From United States of America, joined Jan 2003, 701 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (9 years 12 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 9870 times:

STT757,

I thought airlines assigned one aircraft to a transatlantic route? In other words, a single 777 would go JFK-CDG-JFK in one day (about 16 hours total in the air plus 1.5 hours on either side. At what point would that same plane have the 'sitting around' time to fly to the carribean and back? By may calculation that leaves about 5 hours for the plane do something else- facinating. That would be trmendously effeicient if CO does do that though!


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16819 posts, RR: 51
Reply 11, posted (9 years 12 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 9808 times:

AA has 777 flights from JFK to Europe, South American (GRU) and Tokyo, so they get spread around.

The Trans-Atlantic flights are usualy Afternoon-early Evening (some morning)

The South American Flights are usually Late Evening

and the Tokyo flight is morning.

Here's a possible 777 routing..

Sao Paulo-JFK 777 Arrives JFK at 6:40 Am

Flight is cleaned, prepped

Flight now operates JFK-Santo Domingo

Departs JFK 10:45 AM arrives Santo Domingo 1:45

Departs Santo Domingo 2:45 arrives JFK 6:45 PM

Aircraft is cleaned etc..

Aircraft departs JFK for Sao Paulo at 10:45PM.

And the cycle is repeated, lots of cushining in that schedule for delays.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineAa767400 From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 2332 posts, RR: 26
Reply 12, posted (9 years 12 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 9700 times:

Great, So we still have 3 1/2 more years to deal with cancellations,malfunctions and major mechanical issues. Not to mention one of the most dirty and smelly aircraft in the system. This plane is not taken care of in the way it needs to be. I am not saying Airbus is a bad plane, Because I would love a A333 in AA colors. But that is not going to happen. It is that AA does not keep their bus in shape.


"The low fares airline."
User currently offlineMx330 From Mexico, joined Oct 2002, 827 posts, RR: 13
Reply 13, posted (9 years 12 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 9666 times:
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Aa767400.

In Mexico AA's people know the A300 as the "ScareBus" and yes I had the opportunity to work on IGS (AA's ground service at MEX) and it was a terrible plane. I also don't understand why A300 to MEX instead of 763. I think its just for passengers capacity than for cargo.

Juan APM



All Canon! EOS 5D mk III, 8mm, 17-40, 24-105, 70-200 f2.8, 100-400L
User currently offlineDvk From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 1058 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (9 years 12 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 9649 times:

The first AA A300 leases don't expire until 2008 (and I believe only three expire that year), so any others they would retire before then would have to come from the ten owned aircraft. I've always read, however, that AA had such flexibility on these leases that they could return the planes on fairly short notice, with no penalty. That would contradict what was said about Airbus not allowing them to end the leases early. I wonder what's correct...


I'm not dumb. I just have a command of thoroughly useless information.
User currently offlineVSGirl From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (9 years 12 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 9654 times:


I would like to see the A33X in service with American, but I dont think we will see it, though it would make sense.

I have flown on the AA A300 a lot (back when it used to fly EGKK - KJFK) and I always moved it, though I must admit a few weeks back when I saw one she did look some what tired (not nearly as bad as AF aircraft).

I am sure we will see either B752 or B763 on those routes, maybe if they do some marketing for them a B772 (ya right!)

Kimberly.


User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 16, posted (9 years 12 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 9616 times:

I still think they're going to buy a good number of 7E7 for an 08 delivery timeframe.

According to Boeing, there are no delivery positions remaining in 2008, 2009, and 3/4s of 2010.

N


User currently offlineWhitehatter From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (9 years 12 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 9473 times:

7E7s? Yep. They just avoided Chapter 11 so a new load of debt would be such a good idea...  Insane

757/767s? Too small for the tons of cargo and excess baggage. Forget that.

777s? Seems to be the only option left. Maybe the 7E7 later on, into the 2010 and later timeframe. I can't see AA getting rid of their moneymaker A300s in bulk. If you have a prize cow you don't shoot it and have a barbeque to celebrate...


User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4413 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (9 years 12 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 9422 times:

Well, I'm not a mechanic or AA employee, but from my perspective as a passenger, I've found the A300s to be quite nice actually.

Sure, some of the 763s have nicer video systems in them, but give me an A300 anyday over one of those cramped 757s (yes I know, the A300 is also LRTC).

I've flown on lots of the A300s over the past 2 years between MIA and EWR, JFK and SJU - sometimes 4x a month. Only 2 mx delays in that period of time and the widebody interior is something that I value over the cramped single aisle 757.

And, the interiors didn't seem to be in bad shape at all (at least in coach).


User currently offlineMark777300 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 388 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (9 years 12 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 9411 times:

That's too bad that AA is planning on phasing out the A300. Before B6 came along, I frequently used AA between JFK and MIA, and almost always booked a flight on their A300's. I enjoy widebodies, and for short flights like JFK-MIA, the A300 was comfortable, roomy, and quiet. AA will probably rely on their 777 to provide the cargo capacity needed for some Central/ South American routes. Wouldn't be surprised to hear that AA may order some more 777's to cover for the A300 retirement.

User currently offlineMikeycpvd From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 162 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (9 years 12 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 9412 times:

Here's a possible 777 routing..
Sao Paulo-JFK 777 Arrives JFK at 6:40 Am
Flight is cleaned, prepped
Flight now operates JFK-Santo Domingo
Departs JFK 10:45 AM arrives Santo Domingo 1:45
Departs Santo Domingo 2:45 arrives JFK 6:45 PM
Aircraft is cleaned etc..
Aircraft departs JFK for Sao Paulo at 10:45PM.
And the cycle is repeated, lots of cushining in that schedule for delays.



Well is this schedule factoring in 1 aircraft or two? Because if it's all about utilization, then I would assume it's 1, right? I see a huge hole in your round robin. Leaving alone the daytime rotation for the Carribean flight, what time does the JFK-GRU flight arrive in South America? Because if it leaves New York at 10:45p, that's a red-eye flight with only 1 timezone change, which means it's a loooong flight. That plane lands 9 hours later which would be the early morning of the next day. You have that flight actually landing in New York in the early morning hours of the next day, which is absolutely not possible. The only way for that schedule to work, I can see, is if the Carribean flights were timed later in the day, with a lot less leeway for delays and cleaning. As Petazulu said, and which you could parlay into this scenario, the flight times alone for JFK-GRU-JFK is about 18 hours. Not considering turn times. How does that T7 have time to run to the Caribbean and back with 6 hours left in the day? Again not considering turn times.




Some cats think i'm 6 feet, I'm so deep; I can get d-d-down like a pessimist - Common
User currently offlineHlywdCatft From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 5321 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (9 years 12 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 9319 times:

If AA wants to reduce Fleet types, they could find a way to get down to just three types

Get the 737-700 to start replacing the MD-80s
the 7E7 to replace the 757, 767 and A300
and the 777


So AA could have a fleet like

737-700, 737-800, 7E7-3, 7E7-8, 777

which would be 3 types

737
7E7
777


User currently offlineWhitehatter From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (9 years 12 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 9281 times:

Congratulations.

You just pushed AA into Ch.11 with all that new debt.

Any more good ideas?


User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8188 posts, RR: 8
Reply 23, posted (9 years 12 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 9255 times:

This is interesting, especially with the 7E7 lurking in the background and the fact that there is no love lost between AA & Airbus. While Airbus might have planes that would fit well with AA fleet and a gook knack at creative financing the two just can't seem to work together.

That leaves Boeing with an opportunity to be very creative on the financial side. Since this is not a situation of immediate need, but long term planning, there may be ways to sell the 7E7 to AA. Returned leased planes frees up monthly lease payments, leverage can be gained from fuel efficiencies, etc.

Like a lot of airlines, AA will be looking at how the industry (and their business) develops over the next 12 - 24 months. AA & the 7E7? Stranger things have happened.


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16819 posts, RR: 51
Reply 24, posted (9 years 12 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 9119 times:

I think a realistc time frame for AA's A300 retirements would be seven aircraft per year starting in '08, that would mean the fleet would be retired by the end of '12.

(it's wierd writing that, '12).



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
25 Tekelberry : According to Boeing, there are no delivery positions remaining in 2008, 2009, and 3/4s of 2010. Some of those slots are filled by unspecified airlines
26 Redraider : Whitehatter - Productive use of debt will not send you to Chap. 11. If AA purchased some 7E7's, they wouldn't just buy them and park them and admire t
27 AA300B : About time they replace their A300... very bad plane. but in most of the south americans flights the A300 is full, and its the AA plane with more capa
28 MidnightMike : HlywdCatft American has close to 300 MD80's in the fleet, going to be a long time before those babies will go anywhere. Phasing out the A300's would b
29 F4f3a : I think AA should get a330 to replace the A300. It carries an enormous amount of freight and has buckets of range as well. AA was and is a big MD oper
30 PSU.DTW.SCE : Nothing new here. The A300 leases expire between 2008-2012. They will not all go at once. Those favorable lease termination clauses were only good unt
31 BoeingBus : whether American plans are to get the 7E7 in 2008 or 2012.... its almost certain that this will happen sooner or later... I wouldn't be surprised if A
32 Gearup : About time they replace their A300... very bad plane. Why is it a bad plane?
33 Post contains images SafetyDude : In Mexico AA's people know the A300 as the "ScareBus" I was under the impression that "ScareBus" was the nickname for Airbus. AA's A300s are pretty mu
34 ContinentalEWR : The A300 serves American very well. They are not that old. They were acquired in 1988 and are used for high density, low yield routes, mainly to the C
35 FlagshipAZ : Just to add a sidenote here...per the article AA Chief Gerard Arpey stated the A300's role can be taken over by the 757 & 767. There is a play on word
36 Jfklganyc : Um, here's a question . . . even if AA will use 757s/767s to replace the Airbus A300--what will replace the 757/767 on the current routes that they fl
37 Post contains images SafetyDude : I doubt they will leave the fleet immediately. The article does not seem state that AA has any immediate disposal plans. The A300 has also proven to b
38 Boeing767mech : The A-300 is a piece of junk. Yes I know first hand because I work on them. As for the 757/767's doing the same work as a Bus. They are going to start
39 Gearup : Boeing767mech You may be an aircraft mechanic as you seem to indicate but how can you expect anyone to take you seriously when you talk that kind of c
40 MIASkies : MIA-MAD ON AB6?? HMMM DONT REMEMBER THAT.
41 Warren747sp : That is terrific new. No more worries flying behind heavys. AA pilots have been calleing for this for a long time. I still don't see how a 744 can blo
42 STT757 : "I think AA should get a330 to replace the A300. It carries an enormous amount of freight and has buckets of range as well." AA utilizes their A300s m
43 Rjpieces : Just heard from a source that AA does have deposists on 7E7s......Which makes sense, seeing that the 7E7SR is the ONLY possible A300 replacement witho
44 STT757 : Long term the 7E7 Short Range version makes the most sense for AA, they don't need that much range. Also the smaller wingspan of the 7E7 SR probably m
45 N328KF : Yeah, I would not be surprised if either CO or AA had deposits, and were merely waiting until the fiscally appropriate time to announce an order. Both
46 Ckfred : When AA signed its contract with Boeing in the late '90s, it was for full fleet replacement over 20 years, i.e., about 600 planes. Starting in '99, AA
47 Ken777 : With instability in the price of oil all airlines will have to face challenges of profitability in the future. That can be an important factor when lo
48 EddieDude : I know it is too soon for this question but, what will AA use, in your opinion, to replace the AB6 that does the MIA-MEX flights? I hope they decide t
49 Miamiair : First of all, I am a Boeing fan. Yet I have to be honest enough to say that the A-300-600R is an excellent airplane from an operational point of view.
50 4jaded : A lot of responses here focus on AA's love of the cargo lift the A300 provides. And it is true the A300's can be and are on a regular basis crammed pa
51 NYCAAer : As an AA employee, I felt inclined to provide some clarification to this thread. The A300s' leases will begin to expire in 2008, but no firm decision
52 RayChuang : I think the most likely scenario is that AA will start retiring their AB6 fleet shortly after 2008. The mostly likely replacement? A shorter-range ver
53 Post contains links Angelairways : the horse's health depends on the owner not just the breeder! AA A300 average dispatch reliability 92% - 96% JAL A300 average disp reliability - 99% f
54 JFKLGAflyer : Silly question, perhaps... but what about replacing them with the 764?
55 Anthsaun : Two weeks ago I flew MeX - MIA in an AA A300 and let me tell you it was the worst airliner I ever jumped into. It was olddddd, dirty and uncomfortable
56 Boeing767mech : Okay let me back up my statement about the A-300. First the CGCC or Stab trim tank system is a source of many headaches. I would have to say it is on
57 Scottb : Personally, I despise the A300's flown by American and it's a reason I avoid flying AA to Latin America/the Caribbean if I can (of course, the ghetto
58 Miamiair : Boeing767mech... Go read up on the JAL 747 that lost the vertical and had a fatal encounter with a mountain. Murphy is alive and well boys and girls;
59 Scorpio : Boeing767Mech, I'm not going to dispute the problems you describe, as I'm not a mechanic, but I do have a few observations: It seems, from discussions
60 Gearup : Scorpio, A very excellent post, Thank-You! GU
61 Boeing767mech : Damn my boot taste terrible. I admit I came off half cocked about the comment about the Bus losing it's tail. But as someone that works the Bus I disl
62 Olli : I just saw the last friday AA B767-300 at MEX arriving from MIA around 9:00am. I hope they start flying that plane more often. Regards
63 4jaded : While I am no AA Airbus fan myself having worked in operations and had to deal with equipment move ups constantly in the Bus' defense when it does wor
64 VC10BOAC : Mikeycpvd wrote: "Well is this schedule factoring in 1 aircraft or two? Because if it's all about utilization, then I would assume it's 1, right? I se
65 Iowa744fan : VC10BOAC, STT757 is not saying that the route operates with just one aircraft. The JFK-GRU flight, like most flights between the US and the southern p
66 Afitch7881 : I would love to see AA bring in a 767, or the 7E7 into BDL when the A300 is retired.... Bringing back the 757 to do BDL-SJU would suck!!!
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