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Berlin To Get Non-stop Service To The US  
User currently offlineFRAflyer From Germany, joined Jul 2004, 41 posts, RR: 0
Posted (10 years 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 11337 times:

Hello,

according to the German newspaper "Die Welt", Berlin Schoenefeld-Airport is negotiating with a us-based airline in order to establish non-stop service to America, starting in summer 2005. There's nothing firm yet, they're still investigating the demand and profitability.

No airline has been mentioned in the article. Any ideas?

Here's the link (German only):
http://www.welt.de/data/2004/07/29/311686.html

58 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8062 posts, RR: 54
Reply 1, posted (10 years 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 11213 times:

I bet it's Continental. They're the only ones who are any good at small loads across the pond - Edinburgh, Lisbon et al.

Berlin is a graveyard for trans-Atlantic ambitions, they should tread carefully if they want it to work. I say anything bigger than a 757 (maybe 762 in summer) is pushing the boat out a little too far. I know it should be a moneyspinner, the capital of the biggest country in Europe (100m Germans! holy christ!) and one of the world's biggest economies, to the USA. Should be ch-ching, right? No, I don't know why not either. But it ain't, so CO (for it is they) should proceed with extreme caution.



fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
User currently offlineMIASkies From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 1347 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (10 years 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 11200 times:

hmm...what about ATA?


Nothing better than making love at 35K Feet!
User currently offlineEI2KSEA From Ireland, joined Jul 2004, 576 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (10 years 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 11164 times:

I suppose Berlin could be likened to Washington DC, where New York, Chicago and others completely shadow its international operations - since Frankfurt is such a huge LH hub as well as the financial capital of Germany and the Eurozone, it may just be that Berlin hasnt got enough of them premium fares to support any US incumbants long term ambitions and revenue hopes.

Incidentally could a CO 757 do EWR-Berlin nonstop with a full load? Just wondering....

Regards
Ph



Next Flight: BOS-SFO (B6), OAK-KOA (AK), KOA-OGG (YV), OGG-HNL (HA), HNL-ATL-BOS (DL)
User currently offlineSafetyDude From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3795 posts, RR: 15
Reply 4, posted (10 years 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 11165 times:

I would bet CO as well, as CO carries both business and leisure travelers, which is suitable for Berlin, where as ATA mostly has leisure travelers.

 Smile
-Will



"She Flew For What We Stand For"
User currently offlineKEESJE From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (10 years 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 11138 times:

Well IMO the only thing that could work to get any serious business traffic is a 2 times a day flight to NY (or Washington ..).

But as Cedarjet says, others tried before; LH, DL .. without succes.

if you want to go from Berlin to one the other big destinations you have to make 1 transfer anyway so why not in one of the 4 big European hubs. Those hubs are connected to the biggest 20 destinations directly ...

Timetable flexibility is what business travellers want & 1 flight a day is to restrictive then ...



User currently offlineAirways From Switzerland, joined Mar 2001, 880 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (10 years 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 11103 times:

What about a dedicated business class flight on a BBJ/ACJ?

Michael
http://airsider.net


User currently offlineDesertJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7762 posts, RR: 16
Reply 7, posted (10 years 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 11054 times:

There are only a handful of European-North American city pairs that have been able support multiple daily flights, and Berlin isn't among that short list.

The Great Circle Mapper puts SXF-EWR at ~3400nm. Within the range of a 757-200, but with what kind of load could it reasonably take 95% of the time. Given the feed that Continental could offer from Newark it seems reasonable. I just would have to wonder if there is enough high-yield, time sensative demand on both ends. For what demand their is the hassle of connecting via AB) (FRA / FRF / EDDF), Germany">FRA, AMS, CDG, or LHR probably isn't all that great.



Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16829 posts, RR: 51
Reply 8, posted (10 years 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 10962 times:

When will the first of CO's new "Wingleted" 757s be operational, the winglets will provide a little more range and performance which would make Berlin 757 flights more reliable.

I say CO with a daily 757 from EWR..

Pan Am, Delta, LH, AA have all from time to time had nonstop service to Berlin from the US, TWA had a onestop flight which went via Brussels.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineBCAL From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2004, 3384 posts, RR: 16
Reply 9, posted (10 years 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 10949 times:

I seem to recall that a 737 BBJ is operated on behalf of Lufthansa between a German town (sorry cannot remember which) and Chicago or New York, where there is insufficient demand for a full 767/777 service. Perhaps Lufthansa might be thinking of establishing a similar service from Berlin?


MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
User currently offlineFraT From Germany, joined Sep 2003, 1106 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (10 years 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 10869 times:

No way CO.
It won't be one of the Big 6 carriers. They would fly out of TXL to use the LH feeder flights. As per the article the new service will be ex SXF so I think if there will be a new service it will be offered by ATA or another charter airline.


User currently offlineGSPSPOT From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3011 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (10 years 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 10814 times:

Remember, rumor has it that ATA is looking for a German city to operate out of...


Finally made it to an airline mecca!
User currently offlineEI2KSEA From Ireland, joined Jul 2004, 576 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (10 years 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 10770 times:

I can remember a highly abusive thread recently about the B757s relative comfort over the North Atlantic compared to widebodies, beit my subconscious or what i dont know, but i certainly wouldnt relish the thought of a B757 Berlin-Newark having done SNN-EWR a few times. Twould be great to get the CO B762



Next Flight: BOS-SFO (B6), OAK-KOA (AK), KOA-OGG (YV), OGG-HNL (HA), HNL-ATL-BOS (DL)
User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6483 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (10 years 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 10748 times:

FraT:

I don't think you can count out CO. Who says they want to stick with using Lufthansa as a partner?

Anyhow, you cannot compare Berlin to DC -- DC has a significant transatlantic presence, and did not suffer population drain as a result of the Cold War.



When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineEI2KSEA From Ireland, joined Jul 2004, 576 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (10 years 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 10715 times:

N328KF, I merely compared Berlin to DC in the context that despite its status as the capital city of the country, this doesnt mean it has to be the premier international gateway to the country or that significant international traffic will be attracted, maybe Canberra would have be a better choice in my comparison.

Regards
Ph



Next Flight: BOS-SFO (B6), OAK-KOA (AK), KOA-OGG (YV), OGG-HNL (HA), HNL-ATL-BOS (DL)
User currently offlineAlitaliaORD From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 242 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (10 years 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 10697 times:

Would this new Berlin service be the newest since Tower Air went under?
BCAL- the city is Dusseldorf.

[Edited 2004-07-30 16:39:12]


Joy To The World, All The Boys and Girls, Joy to the Fishes in the Deep Blue Sea, Joy to You and Me
User currently offlineFraT From Germany, joined Sep 2003, 1106 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (10 years 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 10650 times:

N328KF,

CO and LH are no partners. But CO pays LH for every intra-German feeder segment a pro rate.
Face it. CO couldn't make money in DUS (the last months also with a 752) so they won't try Berlin. If LH couldn't make money with all their feeder service and other possibilities in the German market how should a U.S. carrier do so.

So IMO it must be a charter carrier.


User currently offlineEI2KSEA From Ireland, joined Jul 2004, 576 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (10 years 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 10629 times:

What about LTU? Are they not starting Clogne (or maybe Dusseldorf) to Newark soon?


Next Flight: BOS-SFO (B6), OAK-KOA (AK), KOA-OGG (YV), OGG-HNL (HA), HNL-ATL-BOS (DL)
User currently offlineCory6188 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2686 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (10 years 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 10614 times:

Well, the article says that it would be an American carrier, so it wouldn't be LTU. If it were to be one of the "Big Six", it would probably be CO with a wingletted 752 from EWR. However, it is doubtful that they would look into such a route, especially considering that they couldn't get DUS to work.

User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (10 years 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 10550 times:

I'm willing to bet my grandmother's false-teeth that it isnt CO...

...who's been run out of just about every German market they've ever entered (except of course Frankfurt).


User currently offlineFraT From Germany, joined Sep 2003, 1106 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (10 years 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 10517 times:

If you count MUC and DUS as "about every German market"...

BTW. It was mentioned that it will take a while until they can use the winglets on the 752. So I don't know if CO would have them for next years summer season.


User currently offlineFutureFO From Ireland, joined Oct 2001, 3132 posts, RR: 21
Reply 21, posted (10 years 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 10510 times:

LH used to operate to TXL from IAD on the 343. 6x weekly. About every other day the a/c would go out full. I think that with Star being the largest alliance I can see a JFK-TXL or ORD-TXL flights on LH or UA. Just a thought. I don't think it would go to anyone else. If CO gets it the flights would be on a 762 not a 757. Just mainly for the range aspects. The 757 is bad enough on the CLE-LGW flights.


Sean from MCO



I Don't know where I am anymore
User currently offlineNewkai From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 330 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (10 years 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 10458 times:

LH's recent IAD-TXL 343 6x weekly existed until 9/11 I believe... It hadn't been around for long.

Damn, it's got to be possible to fill a plane a day on this route! I just don't get it!


User currently offlineBilly From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2000, 895 posts, RR: 7
Reply 23, posted (10 years 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 10442 times:

The LH route to IAD lasted as long as the Government subsidy. They guaranteed front end traffic even if it was not used.

User currently offlineTokyoNarita From Palau, joined Aug 2003, 570 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (10 years 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 10391 times:

Just a hunch but it smells like Delta's new Atlanta-Berlin service.. Yeah sure
They don't seem to ran out of those B763ERs.

When I was in Germany I was surprised to see CO doesn't even do Houston-Frankfurt.

TokyoNarita.

[Edited 2004-07-30 18:07:11]

25 Stirling : Berlin is a world-class city. Truly dynamic and stunningly beautiful. However.... It still sits all by itself alone in an area that has not yet come u
26 Post contains images ConcordeBoy : If you count MUC and DUS as "about every German market"... If you actually finished the sentence before half-ass responding to it...
27 Nudelhirsch : DL operates a daily ATL-STR flight with a 763 and I am honestly curious how they fill that as Frankfurt is so close to STR and DL flies several dailie
28 Ts-ior : LH used to serve EWR daily out of TXL with a stop in HAM 4x and CGN 3x... Condor would be interested in a Berlin transatlantic service...
29 Post contains images ConcordeBoy : No hub in NYC or DC Um, then what would you call JFK, where they serve more international destinations than any other airline.... ...PS., they call it
30 ORDAgent : In the early '90's AA tried ORD-TXL service. It lasted less than a year.
31 Pbb152 : When I was in Germany I was surprised to see CO doesn't even do Houston-Frankfurt. That should be rectified by this time next year. Pete
32 Rwylie77 : Surely UA makes sense because of the Star Alliance partners such as Lufthanda that could then connect across Europe...?
33 StevenUhl777 : I can only see a low cost carrier having a chance at making this work, which would narrow it to ATA. There is also talk of a CGN to US nonstop as well
34 NWA Man : NW: not mentioned before, why not... You know how you said AA isn't very strong in Germany? Well, NW's weaker. The DTW-Frankfurt flight is the only on
35 Ckfred : I wouldn't rule out AA, but I would be surprised if AA does try flights to Berlin. They tried ORD to Berlin in the early 90s, back when they codeshare
36 Kosmonaute : Despite the size of Berlin's population and its status as the future capital of the reunited Germany It is already the capital....The Bundestag return
37 Post contains images Copenhagenboy : Surely UA makes sense because of the Star Alliance partners such as Lufthanda that could then connect across Europe...? They already do that in Frankf
38 Post contains images FraT : All of the Big 6 carriers from the U.S. use LH feeder service into FRa or MUC to fill their planes. That means that they would need to fill a flight o
39 TransIsland : As mentioned above. The majors would most likely fly to TXL rather than SXF. As it's SXF, it could well be that it is indeed ATA. I just hope that fli
40 Jfklganyc : "DL: like I said, they have the STR-flight and thus seem to take risks, but are in a difficult financial situation. No hub in NYC or DC" Funny, I was
41 EddieDude : I think that if DL can support one daily 763ER ATL-STR flight, surely another U.S. carrier can support non-stop service to Berlin too. Speaking of Ber
42 Myk : Berlin - USA ???? hmmmm, when I think that LH don't even fly to London from Berlin, I really don't know how they will make some money linking Berlin a
43 TransIsland : LH may not fly from Berlin to London, but fortunately there's BA, Ryanair, EasyJet, Air Berlin, and DBA. And funnily enough, every time I need to fly
44 Dutchjet : Berlin has always been a difficult market for transatlantic service.....it seems that loads are OK but the yeilds are problematic.....no airline thus
45 Mats : This is a subject of great bafflement to me. Germany's great capital is so hard to reach! I once flew TXL-HAM-EWR on Lufthansa and TXL-FRA-JFK on Pan
46 JoFMO : The German newspaper DIE WELT reports that ATA is the airline which has an eye on TXL or SFX.
47 FRAflyer : JoFMO, have you read it today? Is there a link? FRAflyer
48 JoFMO : No link, but go to welt.de and then on the left chose the Berlin regional side. Then you should find all Berlin related news.
49 FRAflyer : Yes, it's ATA! The new article mentions that also Cologne is considered as a new German destination, and that there're two American cities possible to
50 Post contains links and images ConcordeBoy : I don't know much about ATA well, for starters.... http://www.ATA.com
51 FRAflyer : So MDW could be one of the considered cities. And the other?
52 Ifly2eat : Won't be from MDW. The runways are too short to take the fuel and the passengers across the Atlantic. It will be either ORD, PHL, or BWI. Stand by to
53 FRAflyer : I hope ATA will do fine on this route. It really seems possible for a low cost carrier to operate a 757 to Berlin, maybe not daily but 3-4 times a wee
54 Post contains images KEESJE : You know how you said AA isn't very strong in Germany? Well, NW's weaker. The DTW-Frankfurt flight is the only one they operate into the country. Furt
55 NWA Man : First of all, apologies if I was unintentionally vague in my previous post. Just concluding the DTW- F R A flight isn't so much indicates a mis- under
56 KEESJE : Most german passengers want to go to the bigger destinations in the US, so we are not talking double connect services here, rather single connect. The
57 747firstclass : My insticnt tells me it might be a joint LH-UA venture from IAD-TXK using a UA 767. I flew the LH flight IAD-TXL-IAD a number of times, and it always
58 FraT : It might have been full but they couldn't earn money. It will be hard for any scheduled carrier to change that even with smaller metal (B767 compared
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