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Why Haven't Any US Carriers Ordered The 7E7?  
User currently offlineHorus From Egypt, joined Feb 2004, 5230 posts, RR: 59
Posted (10 years 2 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 6357 times:

So far 4 carriers from Asia, Europe and Australasia/Oceania have ordered the brand new Boeing airliner, yet not one US carrier has ordered it. Know I understand most, if not all, are not in the finanacial situation to order these $125 million jets but most will inevitabely have to order the aircraft to replace their ageing 767s. Have any US majors made any 'definite' plans for the Dreamliner?

Horus



[Edited 2004-07-31 02:58:32]


EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
32 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJoFMO From Germany, joined Jul 2004, 2211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (10 years 2 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 6335 times:

They all would like it, but all of the legacies have not enough money or fear the risk to invest in new big planes.

User currently offlineCory6188 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2689 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (10 years 2 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 6328 times:

Gordon Bethune of CO publicly stated that the 7E7 would be "a perfect fit" into CO's fleet, but they were unable to financially support any type of purchase at the time. This is still the case for CO and all of the other majors; no one is placing any orders at the moment. Also, at least in CO's case, their 767s are very new (by far the youngest 767 fleet out of all the Big Six), with PTVs at every seat in all classes, and the 777-style interior on the 764 as well as the 762. As a pax that has been on a CO 762, they are very nice inside. Even my mom, who could care less about airplanes as long as they get her from A to B safely (she wouldn't care if she were on CO, WN, or FR), made a comment about how nice and new the interior looked.

User currently offlineWGW2707 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 1197 posts, RR: 34
Reply 3, posted (10 years 2 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 6322 times:

I am hoping a US carrier will order the 7E7 soon. For sure they want it...right now they're looking at an increasingly ageing fleet of 757s and 767s for which the 7E7 could be a useful replacement.

Perhaps if a leasing company is able to order some from the start and work out leasing arrangements with some of the US network carriers...

-WGW2707


User currently offlineJetMechMD80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 380 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (10 years 2 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 6308 times:

How do we no that someone in the US hasn't ordered any yet?  Smile


"I get along great with nobody"~ Billy Idol
User currently offlineATA L1011 From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 1384 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (10 years 2 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 6299 times:

Well most likely financial state.


Treat others as you expect to be treated!
User currently offlineYUL332LX From Canada, joined Feb 2004, 820 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (10 years 2 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 6295 times:

It is inevitable but US airlines just don't feel the urge right now.

As efficient as the 7E7 might be in the future, a 10-15 years old 767 or 757 will still be less expensive to operate overall (including acquisition cost) than a 7E7.

So, no need to hurry!



E volavo, volavo felice più in alto del sole, e ancora più su mentre il mondo pian piano spariva lontano laggiù ...
User currently offlineMidnightMike From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 2892 posts, RR: 14
Reply 7, posted (10 years 2 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 6267 times:

The US Carriers fleets are either new or not ready to be replaced. Delta & Continental
have a brand new fleet of 767-400's, the 777 is pretty young, never know what is going
to take place at NorthWest.



NO URLS in signature
User currently offlineBjg231 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 163 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (10 years 2 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 6237 times:

Despite their current financial situation, I think AA will be the first to order the 7e7. CO and DL both have an eventual need for the aircraft, but they are in no hurry. AA has both 767s and A300s that will have an eventual need of replacing. Compounding on this is the disposal of the airbi in 2008-12 due to their leases expiring, and the incoming 777s proving to be too large to replace the 767 and 300 routes. Consequently, unless AA wants to suffer a drop in capacity or an oversaturation of capacity with 777 allocation, they will need to order an aircraft that fits into its system, the 7e7.

With their improving revenue, a 7e7 order could be a possibility within the next 12-24 months.



If at first you don't succeed, then skydiving is not for you.
User currently offlineIowa744fan From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 931 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (10 years 2 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 6157 times:

Plus, many of the 757s in service with the legacy carriers are not that old. The oldest 757s in UA's and AA's fleets were delivered in 1989. So, although the oldest ones are 15 years old, a large proportion of their fleets are quite young...many only a couple of years old. Same with CO...they did not receive their first 757 until 1994...plus they have had quite a few delivered recently. DL and NW have operated the 757 for slightly longer, but both have also taken delivery of many aircraft in recent years. Granted, the majority of US's aircraft are the older ex-Eastern aircraft. However, the plane is still an efficient model, and many in operation are still quite young (everything from line number 257 on was delivered in the 90s or later). As YUL332LX stated, it is still cheaper in the short run to operate older 757s and 767s than buying new 7E7s. I am not saying that the 7E7 is a bad investment (quite the contrary), I am just saying that while these carriers are short on cash, it will be cheaper to hold off on a purchase.

User currently offlineA330323X From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 3039 posts, RR: 44
Reply 10, posted (10 years 2 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 6149 times:

Granted, the majority of US's aircraft are the older ex-Eastern aircraft.

No, they're not.

US Airways has 10 ex-Eastern B757-225 aircraft, delivered between 1982 and 1984.

US Airways has 21 B757-2B7 aircraft delivered new to USAir between 1993 and 1995.

Do the math.



I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
User currently offlineN317AS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (10 years 2 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 6130 times:

"How do we no that someone in the US hasn't ordered any yet?"

If anyone new it would be the throng of a-netters. Any time I hear of anything aviation happening, I go to this site to verify it.
Besides that, I work at Boeing and no US carrier has ordered any.
I agree with BJG231, I think AA will be the first.


User currently offlineSoaringadi From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 472 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (10 years 2 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 6117 times:

Do you think that any of the airlines are in a position of acquiring any new planes ? The only airlines doing well right now are lcc's like wn etc. and these guys are not going to buy any new planes ( I mean planes like the 7e7).

 Smile



If it ain't Boeing, I'm not going !
User currently offlinePanAm330 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 2681 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (10 years 2 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 6053 times:

Look at it this way: AA has 36 (or 35, now?) Airbus A300-605Rs. Obviously, AA would like a simplified fleet, as evident of the removal of the 727 a couple of years back, and the Fokker F100 just recently (I think they've still got some, but they're on the way out). They'd prefer Boeing, due to their odd relationship with Airbus after the NYC crash back in 2001. However, the A300 is an absolute cash cow for the airline- it has the most seats out of any aircraft in the fleet. It's a high-density aircraft used almost exclusively out of JFK and MIA to the Caribbean. However, the leases start to expire in 2008, conveniently around the time the 7E7 debuts. The A300's main reason for being in AAs fleet, however, is the gigantic cargo market between NYC and MIA and the Caribbean. AA couldn't replace their A300s with a 767. The 767 is just not a good fit for cargo. The 7E7, on the other hand, is.
Look for an AA 7E7 order in 2008 (possibly earlier), when (most likely) they'll have a favorable bank balance, and their 'Buses are on the way out. I'd say they'll be the first US airline to start replacing/supplementing their 767s with the short-range 7E7, for the great cargo and passenger capabilities, and they don't need the range.

In short, AA will be the first.


User currently offlineGREATANSETT From Australia, joined Aug 2003, 508 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (10 years 2 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 6000 times:

Maybe the airlines don't see the 7E7 as such a great aircraft? or they are waiting to see what Airbus is going to produce. Just a thought.......





Ron Paul 2012
User currently offlineQantasclub From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 757 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (10 years 2 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 5982 times:

Easy: They're broke. It's as simple as that. Certainly the majors who fly internationally are, anyway.


Long Haul is the only way to go
User currently offlineNudelhirsch From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 1438 posts, RR: 19
Reply 16, posted (10 years 2 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 5946 times:

While they are all in a bad shape I can see 2-3 small orders in the near future, maybe AA, CO, NW, to catch a good deal Boeing might finally be offering to them if they catch on selling deals...





Putana da Seatbeltz!
User currently offlineNudelhirsch From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 1438 posts, RR: 19
Reply 17, posted (10 years 2 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 5941 times:

While they are all in a bad shape I can see 2-3 small orders in the near future, maybe AA, CO, NW, to catch a good deal Boeing might finally be offering to them if they catch on selling deals...





Putana da Seatbeltz!
User currently offlineDalmd88 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2557 posts, RR: 14
Reply 18, posted (10 years 2 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 5891 times:

I think some US carriers have signed Letters of Intent to purchase the 7E7. Boeing says it has letters from close to fifty airlines I think I read. Many of these are not made public for many reasons. By next year we should see firm orders from US airlines.

User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 19, posted (10 years 2 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 5794 times:

...yet not one US carrier has ordered it.

As the common saying goes: "With what money, we dont have any money?!"



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineHorus From Egypt, joined Feb 2004, 5230 posts, RR: 59
Reply 20, posted (10 years 2 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 5728 times:

Would Southwest ever consider the 7E7?

Horus




EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
User currently offlineHlywdCatft From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 5321 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (10 years 2 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 5727 times:

I think the 7E7 will have a slow start at first, but then sell like hotcakes sort of like the 757 did in the 80s. ANA and the others that order before the production date will be the guinea pigs, then once it proves successful several will jump on the band wagon

Remember AA in another thread announced that they are going to start retiring their A300s in 2008, oddly the same year that the 7E7 is supposed to start being delivered. As of right now, the 7E7 is the only Boeing that can carry the same amount of passengers and freight on the Carribean routes that the A300 can (yes the 777 can too, but its too big for those routes). I wouldn't be surprised if AA ordered 35 in the next year or so, then once AA seemed to be in good financial shape started later replacing 767-300s with them. Then use the smaller 7E7 to replace 757s around 2012 or so.

Delta: Yes would be an ideal 7E7 customer to replace the 767-300s which some are some of the oldest. Wasnt Delta the launch customer for the 300 back in the late 80s? I know some of the other 300s are barely 5 years old, but by the time the 7E7 comes out the some of the 300s will be over 20 years old. Delta could also buy the smaller version for its 757s in which some will be about 25 years old by then. I don't see Delta making any moves though until this financial crisis ends. If they get the right management though and turn the airline around like Bethune and Brenamen did for Continental within a year and a half after they took over, they started making new plane orders shortly after that. If Delta gets the right person in, I could see maybe an order within a couple of years.

United: Another possible customer to replace 757s and 767s once they get out of their troubles.

Northwest: I doubt, but there have been a lot of rumors about Boeing offering NW deals by trading in their A330s for 7E7s. I don't see the point of that. I think Northwest instead should order the smaller 7E7 for 757 replacement in which some of those are getting to be around 20 years old. Northwest will probably fly the 757 as long as the DC-9 though.

USAirways: No way, they are Airbus all the way.

Continental: Bethune likes them, but what is the point when he has the newest fleet of all the legacy carriers, unless he has a lot of money to blow which he doesn't. Continental will eventually order the 7E7, but most likely not before it is already in service. Continental will probably start taking deliveries around 2012 or so if they order.


The LCCs

Southwest: HAHAHAHA ( they would really need a total change in management to do such a thing)

Jet Blue: Just as funny

Air Tran: Well now it is obvious that they are no longer going for a single fleet type like Southwest. I highly doubt it ever happening, but it definitely is more possible than Southwest. They definitely could fill one between Northeast and MCO. But there is only about a 5% chance they would order one, but that is 5 better than WN

ATA: The most likely of the LCCs, although they can't afford it. It would be a good replacement for the L1011. I don't think a lot of people are comfortable flying a narrow body overseas like the 757-300. This would be better for military charters since it can carry more pax, more cargo and fly much furthur than the 757-300. ATA needs to get out of their financial problems, but they could perhaps lease about 5 for the purpose of military charters.

Alaska: I don't think that Alaska one day ordering a few would be such a wacky thought. Ten years ago who thought that Alaska Airlines would fly to Orlando and Miami? Those planes come in full too. Alaska would be a late orderer if they did.

Frontier: No

Independence: No and they probably wont be around long enough to see their full Airbus order

Transmeridean: Maybe about 5 some day later on.





User currently offlineHorus From Egypt, joined Feb 2004, 5230 posts, RR: 59
Reply 22, posted (10 years 2 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 5712 times:

Well considering Boeing claimed they would sell 500 7E7s before first flight, an order by a US carrier should/could be expected 'soon'.

Horus




EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
User currently offlineBoeingBus From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1596 posts, RR: 18
Reply 23, posted (10 years 2 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 5691 times:

Look folks, there are 24 unannounced airlines who supposedly have deposits on the first 2.5 years of prodction slots, which is about 200... Np one knows who they are and very well could be American carriers.

A lot of US airlines would like to have further wage concessions from their unions. so these very same airlines can't announce new expeditures during this period, would defeat the purpose on getting labor and wage cuts...

I believe AA will be the most likely US launch customer to replace their Airbus fleet.



Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
User currently offlineSafetyDude From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3795 posts, RR: 15
Reply 24, posted (10 years 2 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 5626 times:

never know what is going to take place at NorthWest.
In another topic, apparently NWA is very interested in the 7E7, mostly to expand service to Asia.

 Smile/happy/getting dizzy
-Will



"She Flew For What We Stand For"
25 NorCalSF : UA won't be ordering this plane, or any other for that matter, for a long time.
26 UA777222 : It's very very risky to buy a new airliner in bulk. They're not just going to buy 2-3 to start out with b/c it's an entire new a/c and needs to become
27 JZ : I agree that AA is the mostly likely to order 7E7 in the next few years, followed by CO. Thanks to HlywdCatft for the detailed analysis.
28 Ken777 : AA's existing contract with Boeing would appear to make it easier for them to get slots for the 7E7 by swapping other models for them. They have to ge
29 F4f3a : I think US airlines are consolidating what they have right now. An aircraft which is already paid for is more likely to reduce costs than splashing ou
30 CXA330300 : Highly unlikely that anyone from the US but AA and NW are interested. UA is practically one misstep away from insolvency, US is Airbus already, CO and
31 Post contains images ConcordeBoy : I don't think a lot of people are comfortable flying a narrow body overseas like the 757-300. Bullshit. End of story. Highly unlikely that anyone fro
32 Dutchjet : So many members here seem to forget that a new fleet of airliners costs hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars, regardless of whether an aircraf
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