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DL 191...19 Years Later  
User currently offlineFlairport From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 6241 times:

On this day in 1985, DL 191 FLL-DFW crashed short of runway 17L at DFW due to a microburst on approach...

from airdisaster.com:
"Despite the application of maximum power by the crew, the aircraft touched down in a field, careened across a busy highway snapping off light posts, and struck a car with its no.1 engine, killing the occupant. The aircraft then entered the airport property with a groundspeed of 212 knots and impacted two 4 million gallon water towers."
The flight killed 134 of 163 on board as well as the occupant of the car.

it appears that this incident could have happened to any plane that day. just happened to be DL 191.

[Edited 2004-08-03 00:07:27]

38 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineB757300 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 4114 posts, RR: 23
Reply 1, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 6099 times:

The movie about DL-191 is "Fire and Rain" and I'm guessing this is the movie you're asking about. The L-1011 actually did touchdown short of the runway and landed briefly onto one of the highways that runs next to DFW. One of its engines crushed a car, killing the driver.


"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
User currently offlineFlairport From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 6098 times:

Scott, were you working at FLL at the time? If so, what was that like?

User currently offlineScottysAir From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 6091 times:

Yes, I was working in FLL before from 4 years ago at Delta Terminal north and that was companies with CA 1 Services of the food service with the restaurant in Delta terminal north.

User currently offlineScottysAir From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 6082 times:

B757300,

Thanks for telling me about with their movie of Fire and Rain. I will remember with their movie before and do you even has one of their movie at Blockbuster store?

Regards


User currently offlineNWA Man From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 1828 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 6061 times:

The movie about DL-191 is "Fire and Rain" and I'm guessing this is the movie you're asking about.


As is often the case, the book (by the same name) is much better. It's usually available at places like Half Price Books, half.com, Amazon, and the like. It focuses on DL191, the survivors, the grief, and the aftermath, but other crashes with similar details are mentioned and explored as well. IMO, definitely worth a read.



Regards,

N-Dub



Create your own luck.
User currently offlineRogueTrader From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 6005 times:

This crash was intensely studied as I believe it was the worst US air disaster up to that time. As usual, there was a chain of unlikely events that all came together at the same time that caused the TriStar to crash. For one thing, the local weather radar officer was on a coffee break or something, which left the next closest radar facility to monitor DFW, an airport which was to the other facility unfamiliar. Its been theorized that someone familiar with the airport would have been able to pinpoint the locally intense thundershower activity and divert traffic. Other aircraft had flown the same airspace minutes before reported no significant problems.

Delta has had three crashes in Dallas, which must make it the worst record of any city for them. I've heard the scenario around this crash is used in flight training simulators to this day. In Dallas at the time, its sounds macabre, but many of us drove out to see the wreckage, which was mainly a still standing upright tail section. Its a very weird thing to see a broken up airliner anywhere, but right on airport property, in full view of arriving and departing traffic - is unbelievable.

What about the poor guy who was just driving on the highway but nevertheless was killed in this airplane crash? This has to be one of the most unlikely ways to die.

Discovery Channel or TLC has done an excellent recreation of this crash using real data, its scary but fascinating.

regards

RogueTrader


User currently offlineB757300 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 4114 posts, RR: 23
Reply 7, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 5920 times:

This crash was intensely studied as I believe it was the worst US air disaster up to that time.

That distinction goes to American 191 at ORD in May, 1979.



"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
User currently offlineJerion From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 253 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 5864 times:

Discovery Channel or TLC has done an excellent recreation of this crash using real data, its scary but fascinating.

Survival in the Skies had a nice recreation.
I'd love TLC, DSC, or DSC/Wings to rebroadcast the series.

Jerion



L10/D9S/D10/M80/M88/732/733/734/735/73G/738/72S/757/762/763/320/319/318/ERJ
User currently offlineFlairport From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 5837 times:

B757300, are you telling me that AA 191 and DL 191 both were involved in horrible crashes? Have most airline retired that number? (I am not superstitous, but i wouldn't fly it!)

User currently offlineSpacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3524 posts, RR: 12
Reply 10, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 5837 times:

As usual, there was a chain of unlikely events that all came together at the same time that caused the TriStar to crash. For one thing, the local weather radar officer was on a coffee break or something, which left the next closest radar facility to monitor DFW, an airport which was to the other facility unfamiliar. Its been theorized that someone familiar with the airport would have been able to pinpoint the locally intense thundershower activity and divert traffic. Other aircraft had flown the same airspace minutes before reported no significant problems.

I think you might want to read the accident report: http://amelia.db.erau.edu/reports/ntsb/aar/AAR86-05.pdf

The main causes were a combination of pilot error and a lack of proper procedures for Delta pilots in windshear situations. The pilots have windows - they can see bad weather, they also have weather instrumentation on board, and it is the pilot's responsibility to maintain the safety of the aircraft. Both pilots saw lightning directly in front of them on approach and elected to proceed into a thunderstorm that had moved over their approach course. Thunderstorms can be fast-moving - just because one airplane makes it through doesn't mean the next one will, and every pilot knows this.

What put this plane into the ground was a microburst; that's true. But it was the PIC's decision to fly into that thunderstorm on approach. Both pilots saw it and knew it was there, and every pilot in the world knows the possible effects of thunderstorms, whether or not there's a working wind-shear alert system at a particular airport (actually, there was a wind-shear alert system at Fort Worth, just not at the point where DL191 crashed). In fact, you tell me - you're a pilot, there's a thunderstorm in your approach path, and there's no windshear alert system in place over your approach. Does the fact that there's no alert system make you feel safer on the approach, or the opposite?

The pilots should have gone around, bottom line...

[Edited 2004-08-03 04:08:14]


I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
User currently offlineFreshlove1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 5779 times:

3 crashes in DFW, I only remember 2 where was the 3rd??

DL 191 L1011
DL 1472 (not sure if # is right) 727
3rd????


User currently offlineRogueTrader From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 5730 times:

The 3rd Delta crash was at the predecessor to DFW, Greater Southwest International. Few people even remember it, but it was quite a big and nice airport, eventually it lost popularity to Love, though. Parts of DFW are built on top of it, and you can still see a few remains of the old airport, if you know where to look. This happened in about 1972 on a Delta DC-9 training flight, so 'only' the crew died. They apparently rolled quickly to one side and lost control while in the wake turbulence of an AA DC-10. This incident lead to the 'heavy' designation in ATC communications and the increased separation distances required behind large jets.

Spacecadet, I've studied this and other crashes at length, I even visited the crash site of this Delta loss. I think you're wanting a quick and direct answer for this crash. I just don't think things are black and white and that every crash is avoidable and largely blamed on 'pilot error.' As with almost all air crashes, this one only took place when several different things went wrong at the same time, any one of which alone, had it not happened, could have saved the plane. Today in simulator training, pilots can recover from this exact same data set that took place that day, but only because they know its coming in the simulation program they're using. Put the same weather in another simulation, and they still crash. It was an almost impossibly difficult situation, although this and the loss of a Pan Am 727 in New Orleans also in the early 80s greatly improved wind shear warning technology and implementation. Thank you for your thoughts.

kind regards,

RogueTrader

[Edited 2004-08-03 05:59:45]

User currently offlineDeltaAgent1 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 104 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 5718 times:

Delta flight #1141 on Aug 31, 1988. I am a survivor of that crash, and
I work for Delta today.


User currently offlineFlairport From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 5706 times:

DeltaAgent1:

Very interesting that you were in a crash. I know how touchy the subject is, but would you be interested in sharing your story with us? I understand if you don't, but i think it'd be very interesting to see.


User currently offlineDeltaAgent1 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 104 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 5655 times:

Flairport, I don't mind answering questions about my experience that day, but I do have my limitations. Do know that on flight 1141 there were many heros that day, and we didn't all make it. Today, I know that each day I am here is "something extra".

User currently offlineFlairport From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 5638 times:

which is why I didn't just flat out say "tell me what happened"...I appreaciate your courtesy...

I, myself, know nothing about 1141, I'll look it up, though. If you would like to share anything about it, but not on the forum, please feel free to e-mail me!


User currently offlineTexdravid From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1339 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 5598 times:

I remember that day...it was hot--about 103 F and in the early evening thunderstorms were building and then..the bad news appeared on the T.V.

It is interesting and a bit weird that AA and DL had flight 191's that crashed.

Furthermore, DL did not have a great record at DFW in the 1980's. This flight happened on 8/2/85, and in 1988, another DL flight crashed in clear skies on takeoff.

I'm sure all you DFW airliners.net fans remember these times!!
All of these new items I learned not from CNN or the internet (these were the 1980's) but from 'ol Tracy Rowlett and Channel 8 in Big D!!



Tort reform now. Throw lawyers in jail later.
User currently offlineQantasguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 162 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 5340 times:

This is a rather morbid fascination isn't it. I often get asked why I have so many books on airline disasters. I think we as a general public have still got so much faith in aircraft that when something does go wrong, we are still amazed. I for one am always searching for new accounts of old accidents, and would love to see more TV documentaries on them. May we not forget the human side to this fascination.


Airplanes Flown on..B-727-100, B-727-200, DC-9, F-27, B-707, B-717, B-737, B-747SP, B-747-100, B-747-200, B-747-300, B74
User currently offlineJsnww81 From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 1994 posts, RR: 15
Reply 19, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 5323 times:

Texdravid:

I definitely remember Tracy Rowlett breaking into programming in 1988 to announce the Delta 1141 crash. That was back when he had his giant 1980s 'helmet' hair.

I was only five years old when DL191 went down, so I don't remember it very well, but I remember the DL1141 crash pretty vividly. It was the first plane crash I followed in the news and on TV.


User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 4762 times:

>>>I remember that day...it was hot--about 103 F and in the early evening thunderstorms were building and then..the bad news appeared on the T.V.

Precisely my recollection, very hot, and very hazy as well. I was sleeping off my graveyard shift when a huge crack of thunder woke me up. I lived in Coppell at the time, just NE of DFW, and my backyard was about 1 mile east of the (then) 17L (now 17C) extended centerline. After the thunder woke me up, I went out into my back yard, and it was so hazy that you couldn't even see where the cell was.

DL191 was the first transport I can think of lost to a thunderstorm that was equipped with a (then) newer generation digital FDR, and as a result, they were able to "capture" more parameters, and that's what made more accurate flight simulator re-creations possible.

This info also helped Dr. T. Ted Fujita in his research on microbursts. Fujita had studied several other crashes, including Eastern 66 (727) at JFK, and more recent to the DL191 accident, Pan Am 759 (727) at MSY in 1982. In addition to a book he wrote on the EA/PA (and other) crashes, he would also write a book specifically on the DL191 crash, entitled, appropriately enough, "The DFW Microburst". It may interest some to know that the cell that knocked down DL191 wasn't some 50,000 or 60,000 foot tall monster, but was only topping out in the low 20,000 foot range. Fujita's book also has some color aerial photos of the L1011's main gear tire tracks from the first touchdown in the muddy field -north- of highway 114, tire tracks across 114 itself, plus other ground scars -south- of 114 on the way to the eventual impact with the two water tanks. The book's other graphics are excellent, and if you can find a copy on Amazon.com or elsewhere, it'd be an excellent addition to any aviation collection.

One of the beneficial things to come out of the DL191 accident was the development of Terminal Doppler Weather Radar (TDWR). Today, there is a TDWR antenna ball just north of I-635 between MacArthur and Beltline which many folks think is for DFW, but this one actually serves Love Field. DFW is served by a separate TDWR, and the antenna for it is sited on the south shore of Lake Lewisville, up around where highway 121 goes under the big railroad bridge NE of Lewisville proper.

Between TDWR, predictive windshear on the aircraft today, and Fujita's work which helped folks understand the mechanics of the microbursts better, the DL191-type of accident is alot less common.


[Edited 2004-08-03 18:22:01]

User currently offlineTransGlobal2 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 88 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 4653 times:

Delta Agent,

How old were you at the time of crash?

Thx


User currently offlineBrons2 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 2991 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 4561 times:

You can download the CVR off of Airdisaster.com for DL191, it's an interesting listen.

You can hear the 2nd officer say in the background "there's lightning coming out of that one" and then the captain just kind mutter "uh-huh". You hear the 1000 ft callout, then the plane suddenly accelerates right before entering the microburst, then the captain says, "you're gonna lose it all a sudden........there it is". (the FO is flying). Then both the captain and second officer exclaim "push it up, way up", and then you hear the big RR's spool up, then back down a bit, then at max.

A couple of seconds later the captain exclaims "hang on to the son of a bitch" and the second officer asks "what's the Vref?" About that time the GPWS activates "whoop whoop pull up, whoop whoop pull up". You hear a lound bang which probably is the plane smacking down on Texas Highway 114, and then the landing gear alarm goes off for a few seconds, and then some expletives and the end.

Quite a ride, it really shows how quickly things can go south on you when you get behind a situation.



Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
User currently offlineRichierich From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 4201 posts, RR: 6
Reply 23, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 4555 times:

B757300, are you telling me that AA 191 and DL 191 both were involved in horrible crashes? Have most airline retired that number? (I am not superstitous, but i wouldn't fly it!)

Here are some US airlines' Flight 191s I found:
JetBlue 191 JFK-LAS
United 191 IAD-LAX
Continental 191 MIA-IAH
AirTran 191 ATL-DCA
Northwest 191 LGA-MSP-SAN

There maybe others but clearly 191 is often used as a flight number.



None shall pass!!!!
User currently offlineArkhem From Ghana, joined Jul 2004, 128 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 3720 times:

I believe that both AA and DL have retired 191

25 Iflyatldl : AA and DL retired those flight numbers several years ago.
26 DeltaAgent1 : TransGlobal2, I was 18 years old at the time
27 A340Spotter : RogueTrader, Very good information passed on in this forum. To me, DL191 represents the biggest reason I got into the airline business. I have studied
28 RogueTrader : Jeffrey (A3402Spotter): Thanks for your words! So many people try to look for a quik and easy answer - but this rarely is possible in the loss of a la
29 DeltaAgent1 : RogueTrader, I do agree with you, to a degree, however, it does mean something to the families of the dead, as there was something learned about this,
30 Matt D : I remember that dreadful day. At first, I was annoyed that the news interrupted my "Gilligans Island" reruns, but then when I saw the story, my heart
31 JayDavis : I lived in Lubbock, TX at the time. CNN basically carried the feed from Channel 8 and we watched all the coverage. What is interesting to me now is th
32 Type-rated : I have a freind who was a non-reving DL F/A on 1141. She has since retired from DL when they offered a "package" back in the mid-90's. From what she
33 OttoPylit : RogueTrader's story about a third Delta crash is correct. I myself just recently first read about it in the book "Leaving on a Jet Plane" published in
34 Type-rated : Otto: Actually, I was working on my commercial rating at the time of this accident and we were well taught the dangers of wake turbulence and how to a
35 OttoPylit : Well, maybe he(Ippolito) was just referring to Delta not having the simulators then. After all, during the early '70's, Delta basically still was just
36 Type-rated : DL was considered a major carrier even back in the early 60's. Maybe a DL expert can assist here. I know they concentrated on North-South routings and
37 OttoPylit : Just by going from the book, when Ippolito was hired in 1963 by Delta, he took the job, although he yearned to fly for big international carriers like
38 Type-rated : It's all a matter of prespective. In the 1960's compared to PanAm and TWA with their overseas routes, DL and UA and AA were all "small domestic" airli
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