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Westjet Buys More Boeing 737  
User currently offlinePANAM_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 4096 posts, RR: 90
Posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 7148 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
COMMUNITY MANAGER

CALGARY (Dow Jones)--WestJet Airlines Ltd.'s (WJA.T) board has approved the
purchase of six Boeing 737-600 series aircraft, three to be delivered in 2005
and three to be delivered in 2006.
In a press release, the Canadian regional airline said it has also entered
into an agreement with Boeing Co. (BA) to convert the purchase rights with
respect to 12 additional next-generation aircraft to options for delivery in
2006.
It said the purchase of the six 737-600 series aircraft is subject to
approval for financing from the Export-Import Bank of the U.S. in the same
manner as past deliveries.
At the end of 2005, WestJet will have 66 aircraft in its fleet, consisting of
51 next-generation 737 aircraft and 15 737-200 series aircraft.

Good to see more 736 being sold and purchase right conversions. Have these already been announced or any chance that they're UFO on Boeings website as there is a UFO for 3 736 & 12 73G




Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
55 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineHlywdCatft From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 5321 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 7008 times:

Congratulations West Jet and Boeing and it is great to finally see a North American carrier order the 600, maybe I will finally get to see one in person.

User currently offlineVoodoo From Niue, joined Mar 2001, 2053 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 6996 times:

Can you put winglets on a -600 I wonder?

Also, I wonder if this is the end of speculation on Westjets possible Emb-190 interest.

[Edited 2004-08-03 15:33:08]


` Yeaah! Baade 152! Trabi of the Sky! '
User currently offlineAs739x From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6001 posts, RR: 24
Reply 3, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 6939 times:

Am I reading this correctly, 737-600's. Wow, when was the last order for one of those placed? They could probably ask SAS for theirs.

ASSFO



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlineCPDC10-30 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2000, 4773 posts, RR: 24
Reply 4, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 6868 times:

Nice to see WS expanding...but I find the -600 to be a less than ideal aircraft for them to order. For smaller markets would it not make more sense for them to follow B6 and order the Embraer 17x/19x or the CRJ 700/900? The operating costs of the -600 and -700 are almost identical so unless Boeing gave them a much better deal than the -700s, I don't see how this makes sense.

The only real substantial cost saving is that if they have a pax configuration of 120 or less, WS can roster 3 f/a instead of 4. But is it really worth it just for that?

And one question regarding the 737-600...Boeing specs show it has the same fuel capacity as the -700 yet has a lesser range. How is this possible?


User currently offlineDanny From Poland, joined Apr 2002, 3505 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 6859 times:

As739x - absolutely right. Why to order them if SAS would be happy to get rid of some???

User currently offlineSafetyDude From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3795 posts, RR: 15
Reply 6, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 6799 times:

Congratulations West Jet and Boeing and it is great to finally see a North American carrier order the 600, maybe I will finally get to see one in person.
I was quite shocked when I saw -600. Perhaps I will have to fly up to Canada one day for the fun of it.  Wink/being sarcastic

-Will



"She Flew For What We Stand For"
User currently offlineCRJ900 From Norway, joined Jun 2004, 2152 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 6754 times:
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I flew SAS' Boeing 737-600 just a few days ago (trip report coming someday), and asked the crew about how SAS like it. Apparently they are quite pleased with them, they have 31-35 of them, using them mostly on services to/from Norwegian destinations.

It is slightly heavy, but my, you should feel the thrust on those CFM56-7s during take-off, cool! They fly really well, and 3 FAs are enough to give up to 123 pax great service without stressing and running down long aisles.

Thumbs up for the 736! I think Westjet will be pleased with them too.



Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
User currently offlineGoose From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 1840 posts, RR: 15
Reply 8, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 6721 times:

Nice to see WS expanding...but I find the -600 to be a less than ideal aircraft for them to order. For smaller markets would it not make more sense for them to follow B6 and order the Embraer 17x/19x or the CRJ 700/900? The operating costs of the -600 and -700 are almost identical so unless Boeing gave them a much better deal than the -700s, I don't see how this makes sense.

Aside from fleet commonality - allowing the same flight crews, maintenance people and many of the same parts between the -600s, -700s and -800s in WS' fleet by next year - the other benefit is that, with WestJet's seating configuration, the -600 will be a roughly 100-ish seat aircraft - ideal for the smaller markets WS serves. Currently, the -200s fly with a seating config of 125, if I recall; their -700s have increased seat pitch from the -200s, though, and seat 136... despite being a larger airplane.



"Talk to me, Goose..."
User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6482 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 6658 times:

Does anyone operate all four 737NG variants?


When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineScottb From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6579 posts, RR: 32
Reply 10, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 6651 times:

"The only real substantial cost saving is that if they have a pax configuration of 120 or less, WS can roster 3 f/a instead of 4."

To quote WestJet's press release: "The 737-600 series aircraft will have a seating capacity of 118, as compared to the 125 seat capacity of the 200 series aircraft."

That may well have been a consideration at WestJet; an aircraft like the Embraer 190 would also require three flight attendants for fewer seats. My opinion about the 190 vis a vis jetBlue's order is that it is largely aimed at reducing crew costs versus a hypothetical A318 at jetBlue. Pilot salaries on the 190 will be dramatically lower than those on the A320. Lower fuel burn pales in comparison to the labor savings.


User currently offlineFallingeese From Canada, joined Apr 2001, 2097 posts, RR: 18
Reply 11, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 6570 times:

Well 2005 should be an interesting year for Westjet with the arrivals of the 737-600 and 737-800.


Mark McWhirter...Contrails Photography
User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16228 posts, RR: 57
Reply 12, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 6510 times:

I question the logic of this. Clearly, WS is moving to an all-NG fleet which, while operationally efficient, will have steep monthly lease rates. The poor sales of the 736 suggest is it not an efficient money maker on its own.

I argue that a mixed fleet of newer & older aircraft is the best mix. I think a better decision would have been to buy a uniform block of used 733 or 735.

Although, it seems the bulk of their fleet will remain with the 73G with the 736/738 playing smaller specialty roles.






Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineDash8King From Canada, joined Nov 2001, 2742 posts, RR: 11
Reply 13, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 6474 times:

I agree with Neil. I think costs will be way to much and they will have way to many 737's.

User currently offlineMexicana757 From United States of America, joined exactly 13 years ago today! , 3019 posts, RR: 29
Reply 14, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 6455 times:

My reacation was also wow, when I read 737-600. When I read the headline I was thinking they might have order more 737-700s. I'ts good to see WestJet buy the 737-600. They know it has a purpose in their fleet and future plans.

Good to see the 737-600 get some attention.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy



User currently offlineCPDC10-30 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2000, 4773 posts, RR: 24
Reply 15, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 6415 times:

They fly really well, and 3 FAs are enough to give up to 123 pax great service without stressing and running down long aisles.

In Canada the current requirement is for one f/a per 40 seats, but there is pressure to raise it up to 50. But unless that happens, it would only make sense to operate the 736 with less than 120 pax.


User currently offlineSlawko From Canada, joined May 1999, 3799 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 6299 times:

Neil you beat me to it. I would also question the economics of this order. 100 seats flying around at or around the same cost of the 73G just doesnt add up, especially when the other two players are going to be operating in and around the 87-108 seat range with airplanes that will be/are a fraction of the cost to purchase and operate, even if you factor in the savings in commonality I dont see how 6 -600's will be a good idea economically, even if the fleet will eventually grow. Older 737's I dont think are the answer either, while their purchase/lease costs are lower they are not considered common type ratings in Canada, and they do not have common engines, so if you are going to operate a different type and want in and around 100 seats then you are better off with an RJ product, which would offer lower operating economics when spread accross the 100 seats.

Just my two cents...Looking forward to seeing the little 737's though ehhehe



"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16228 posts, RR: 57
Reply 17, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 6274 times:

Older 737's I dont think are the answer either, while their purchase/lease costs are lower they are not considered common type ratings in Canada, and they do not have common engines, so if you are going to operate a different type and want in and around 100 seats then you are better off with an RJ product, which would offer lower operating economics when spread accross the 100 seats.

True, but WS already operates older 737's, so replacing them with newer older 737's (such as the 733/735) does not add complexity. Indeed, the 735 has more commonality with the 73G fleet due to its CFM engines.

Anyway, Canada's 2 large LCC's are taking extremely opposite fleet planning directions: WS all new, SG all used. I think the SG fleet is more appropriate for this low yield market.







Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 18, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 6258 times:

Interesting move by Westjet, while the 736 has not been a popular member of the 737NG series, it is a very good aircraft for long thin routes and could work very well on canadian transcon services or longer thin routes from the US to Canada (say Las Vegas to Montreal or Orlando to Vancouver).

While the economics of the 736 may not be as good as other members of the 737NG family, the 736 is still a very effecient aircraft.....it has not sold well mainly because most airlines prefer routing passengers via hubs instead of operating long-thin routes. The 736 is a good aircraft, it simply has not found its market. If Westjet uses their new 736s to open long-haul routes within and to Canada which would allow passengers to avoid connections and to bypass Toronto, they could be very successful.


User currently offlineSlawko From Canada, joined May 1999, 3799 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 6236 times:

True, but WS already operates older 737's, so replacing them with newer older 737's (such as the 733/735) does not add complexity. Indeed, the 735 has more commonality with the 73G fleet due to its CFM engines

Sure it does, unfortunatly Transport does not recognize commonality like they do at the FAA, The CFM's on the 733/4/5 are not the same as the ones on the 73G's. Parts are not interchangable in most cases, its like Transat using RB211 parts from the L10, on A330 RB211's.

And the classics have very little in common with the other two generations, though conversion courses would be lower then they would be for a newish RJ I dont think it would make a diff because the costs would still be higher in relation to the number of seats being offered, especially to the destinations that they will be using them to.

BUt we are pretty much on the same page Neil, I'd like to hear what some of the WJ's think... I think the MD/FK option is a better way to go for this market too, though there are some benefits to going brand new too...I'd also like to hear what the WJ'ers think about their recent drop in profits, and sharp stock drop off today. Those profit sharing deals are slowly going to turn into loss sharing, and that spells unions IMHO.



"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
User currently offlineBriboy From Canada, joined Jul 2001, 358 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 6216 times:

A couple of points...

1) I wonder what kind of deal they are getting from the Ex-Im Bank on these aircraft... My guess is that there is both good terms from Boeing and Ex-Im.

From the Ex-Im web site http://www.exim.gov:

"Ex-Im Bank does not compete with private sector lenders but provides export financing products that fill gaps in trade financing. We assume credit and country risks that the private sector is unable or unwilling to accept. We also help to level the playing field for U.S. exporters by matching the financing that other governments provide to their exporters.". I suspect this last line (along with WS's decent finances) has lowered the finance costs of these aircraft.

2) I suspect that the fleet size of 190s would have been too small for WS to manage. A new aircraft would bring in a new spare part inventory, maintenance employee training , different pilot group, simulators, vendor relationships etc., whereas the -600 does not (mostly) have these issues.



next up: YYC, SFO, SYD, AKL, WLG, CMB, BKK, SIN, FRA, VCE, JFK
User currently offlineWestJetYYZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 6183 times:

I don't believe the 600 has ever had winglets installed, however since it is the same wing as the 700 then I don't see any reason why not. However I doubt they would be worth the investment since the aircraft would likely only fly shorter routes so they wouldn't be as effective.

On the conference call this morning the topic was discussed to some length and one of the main reasons this aircraft will be much more suited, beyond the fleet commonality is that charges such as landing fees in Canada are charged based on aircraft weight. Since the 600 has a much lower max take-off weight than the 700 it does cost quite a bit less to operate, and also since it will only have 118 seats, will only require 3 F/As.

"Clive Beddoe, WestJet's President and CEO, said today, "Today's
order of 600-series Boeing aircraft represents the culmination of a
significant study which determined the most appropriate aircraft to
replace our 200-series aircraft. The mix of aircraft that will be in our
fleet commencing in 2005, including the 600, 700 and 800 Next Generation
models will provide WestJet with the flexibility to meet the needs of a
variety of markets while providing the cost efficiencies of operating
one consistent aircraft model that has common engines, flight decks,
spare parts and training."

The other topic which came up on the call was wheather the airline would be looking at the EMB aircraft any further, and it was revealed that not in the near future, however they have not ruled it out as a future possibilty for smaller airports.

If you wish to hear the conference call...

"A recording of the conference call will be archived on the Internet for
90 days following the call in the Investor Relations section of
www.westjet.com. A recording of the call can also be accessed by calling
1-800-558-5253 (quote reservation number 21202598) until August 10,
2004."


User currently offlineWestJetYYZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 6172 times:

Slawko what sharp drop in price are you reffering to, because the stock closed up 25 cents today @ $13.55 CDN. It did hit a low of $12.50 this morning, however this was before the Q2 results had a chance to soak in. Obviously investors still have confidence in our stock.

Also you have no idea how profit sharing, or our stock purchase plans work obviously, because employees have never been asked to absorb losses. Nor has the company posted a loss, this is still our 30th consecutive quarter of profitability. Unions are far from wanted, they have made many attempts to get into this company and they are not wanted.


User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16228 posts, RR: 57
Reply 23, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 6156 times:

I don't believe the 600 has ever had winglets installed, however since it is the same wing as the 700 then I don't see any reason why not.

A 600 with winglets would still need separate certification due to the slightly different airframe/wing parameters vs the baseline 736 (sans winglets) and the wingletted 73G.





Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineWestJetYYZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 6100 times:

I don't believe it would require a separate certification, as much as a supplemental type certificate. The aircraft is still a 737-600, just with winglets installed. Anyhow, as of this time WestJet has not specified wheather winglets will be installed or not, but I'd be quite surprised if they were.

25 NorCalSF : SAS is also using the -600s between ARN and LHR. Flew on them a few weeks ago -- nice airplane.
26 Rikkus67 : YAY! More cards for me to print up.... (You'll have to ask me what I mean...)
27 Slawko : Ok I'll bite, What do you mean?
28 Yyz717 : I know what he means! Congrats Rik! Neil
29 Post contains images Voodoo : Can someone photoshop a Westjet -600 for us (maybe with and without winglets, if I can be greedy ) ?
30 Post contains links Voodoo : Someone has partly answered my own question: http://www.cardatabase.net/modifiedairlinerphotos/search/photo_search.php?id=00002090
31 Starrion : Is this order in addition to the 7 aircraft that Westjet has on the current Boeing order page? Besides that I notice the NZ order nor the other 7E7 or
32 PANAM_DC10 : This is a new order seperate to the 7 already posted. Air NZ is having it's shareholder meeting on August 5th for approval to purchase 777 & 7e7. NZ G
33 YUL332LX : It woudn't be surprising if WestJet ordered another half-dozen of 736 in 2 or 3 years if the aircraft meet expectation.[Edited 2004-08-04 18:15:20]
34 CanadaEH : Been on vacation, here's my two cents (my apologies if I missed any questions): As I understand it, we were able to shave 2000 LBS off the max takoff
35 N1120A : We also have to remember that 737's are well proven in the cold, just ask AS, while the EMB170/190 has not seen the test of 30 below Canadian winters.
36 Squad55 : We also have to remember that 737's are well proven in the cold, just ask AS, while the EMB170/190 has not seen the test of 30 below Canadian winters.
37 Dash8King : I wonder what smaller markets they will seve with it perhaps Whitehorse or Yellowknife?
38 Mark_D. : Dash8King --I wonder what smaller markets they will seve with it perhaps Whitehorse or Yellowknife? I think that'd work, couple or so times weekly any
39 Post contains images Slawko : Thanks Eh, you and I dont agree all the time, but at least you generally provide a worthwhile post. ANd witht he -800's I think you guys are putting 1
40 WestJetYYZ : 160 seat may be too much for YYZ-YUL, however it's great for YYZ-YVR and other such long haul, high demand routes, and even greater for charter flight
41 Yyz717 : Westjet said the 738's were ordered in part for charter work. I guess they will be used heavily on sun charters from YYZ/YYC/YVR and some connecting f
42 Planemaker : while the EMB170/190 has not seen the test of 30 below Canadian winters. You may be surprised to learn that they already have. All airliners go throug
43 Whiteguy : I think I read that the 738s were ordered to run the YYC-YYZ, YVR-YYZ, YYC-YUL etc, routes. That would then free up the 700s to run the charter flight
44 CanadaEH : The -800's will operate both domestic long-haul and charter flights. There are no "dedicated" aircraft for charter operations. What would probably hap
45 Rikkus67 : Slawko, YYz717, and Voodoo... I have been involved with an important "information design feature" for Westjet since 1999. Unfortunately, it doesn't ge
46 Post contains links and images Voodoo : Feel free to toot that horn. Excellent work Rik. I'll just put the URL up again shall I? http://www.cardatabase.net/modifiedairlinerphotos/search/phot
47 WJA73G : just to clear things up... 737-6CT= Live TV, Winglets 737-7CT= Live TV, Winglets 737-8CT= Live TV, Winglets They will all be common, They will all hav
48 CanadianNorth : I think Whitehorse would work in the summer. Ussually in winter we have 1 zip 732 (this winter an AC A319) and 1 Air North 732 from YVR, and in summer
49 Goose : I think Whitehorse would work in the summer. Ussually in winter we have 1 zip 732 (this winter an AC A319) and 1 Air North 732 from YVR, and in summer
50 CanadaEH : 737-6CT= Live TV, Winglets 737-7CT= Live TV, Winglets 737-8CT= Live TV, Winglets The 737-600 isn't certified (and I haven't heard any talk of certific
51 Kim777fan : Do you think San Diego is on their short list? How about Chicago?
52 CanadaEH : Chicago has a better chance than San Diego IMO, but I have no intimate knowledge of any of our expansion plans.
53 Fokker50 : I think WestJet will be the next canadian Southwest.
54 YOW : The thing with YZF, as has been discussed before, is that it's heavily dependent upon cargo. Therefore, would an all-pax, all the time, 737 service on
55 Goose : One thing's for sure, if WS ever did start service to YZF if would forever change (lower) the fare structure on the YEG-YZF run. YEG is also a sizeabl
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