EA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 12559 posts, RR: 64 Reply 3, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4079 times:
"Take another path" ? The only thing I can think of would be DALPA attempting to buy up enough stock to take control of DL - but that won't fix their problems; it will only change the name of the guy telling them how to fix them.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
SPREE34 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 2096 posts, RR: 10 Reply 6, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3867 times:
Self deception is a horrible thing. Strategic retreat from an unrealistic position is their only reasonable "path."
I predict a battle of wills, resulting in a post summer travel season chaotic disruption of customers plans. How about the week of September 6th. There will be a lot of unproductive aviation emotion in the air that week anyway.
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
Jrlander From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 1097 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3856 times:
I see Delta moving farily quickly to file Ch. 11, and first thing to have that contract thrown out. Once that contract is thrown out, mechanics pay will follow pretty quickly, and a move to dismiss some plane leases not long after that.
If management insists on the $1 billion in concessions from the cockpit mavens without asking other "stakeholders" to tighten their belts, the union may "take another path," Malone warned.
I thought I've read in this forum that most if not all other DL employee groups have already taken wage cuts as pilot pay has continued to increase. Am I misinformed? If so, who are the other "stakeholders"?
"To he who only has a hammer in his toolbelt, every problem looks like a nail."
MontanaFL From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 99 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3792 times:
I have commented on this topic before so here I go again. My dad retired from DL with a month shy of 31 yrs. If DL files bankruptcy and he loses most if not all his pension/medical benefits for himself and mom, DL can just sell it self off and never come back. My dad worries everyday if he will have a pension and med benefits after giving 31 yrs to that company. I will never fly DL again and will trash them every chance I get. I DO NOT want to see DL file bankruptcy. I want to see them get their s*** together and get back to being the airline they were yrs ago. C.E. Woolman is rolling over in his grave right now seeing what is taking place.
TOLtommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3220 posts, RR: 4 Reply 13, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3690 times:
It's a tough place for your Dad to be in right now. Hopefully he didn't rely solely on DL to provide a pension for him. You didn't say what position that your Dad retired from? Do you care to share that info? Let me ask you this question. How does your threat to never fly DL again, and to trash them at every chance you get, help protect your Dad's pension and benefits? Some of his former fellow co-workers (again, you don't say what he did at DL) can't see how serious the situation is, or choose not to. How does their action excuse them from any responsibility to help protect the benefits and pensions of those who built the company before them? Don't simply place all the blame on Delta management. Yes, they have a lot of responsibility. But they don't have all of it.
StevenUhl777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 14, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3543 times:
Re: the big-6 major airlines going into Q4: It's a staring match and the first one who "blinks", goes. They all have serious problems, some greater than others. Fuel surely isn't getting any cheaper, that's for sure.
If for some reason the DL pilots decide to strike, goodbye Delta...and in short order. If there is a strike, it would have be settled in a matter of hours, 2 days maximum. A strike is one sure way to kill DL for certain.
If they do propose a buyout, who would agree to it? The first thing anyone will point to is the last few years of the UAL ESOP and the end result. So, throw away that option right now.
MontanaFL: I understand your feeling concerning your Dad: my Dad is a retired UAL mechanic. Granted, he has other things to fall back on, but losing a large portion of his pension and medical from UAL certainly won't make things easier. I wish your Dad well. In the meantime, encourage your friends, etc. to FLY on Delta, I promote United whenever I can. Trashing them and refusing to fly on them accomplishes nothing.
In general, hope things work out for employees at all of the legacy carriers. I'm afraid this fall will bring about a major shakeup in the industry.
N6376m From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 17, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3413 times:
My point exactly.
Once again, a union's blind devotion to a theoretical position has ended up hurting it's membership. If the pilots had accepted the pay cuts when they were first asked for, the pain would have been a lot less.
Colin Powell wrote, "Never have your ego so close to your position so that if your position falls, your egos goes with it."
AirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 26 Reply 18, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3393 times:
Employee buyout or a stike are options that are open to the union.
Striking is not an option. Per the Railway Labor Act, the DL pilots cannot strike unless the NMB rules that no progress has been made and gives permission for other means (such as a strike) in the negotiations. Only the NMB can give permission to a union to strike. If the union authorizes its members to go on strike, it would be an illegal strike and the union would be slapped with countless fines plus a lawsuit. Sorry but its the law and its all there in the Railway Labor Act.
Ask the Eastern Airline machinist what direction the "other path" leads to.
My guess is pretty straight forward: Another repeat of the infamous EAL collapse which could mean the end of business for DL.
Like I said in other threads...its a do or die for the DL pilots. Take the pay cut or hit the streets and become unemployed. Its pretty simple!
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
AirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 26 Reply 20, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3374 times:
LOL! I forgot about work slowdowns. That could be a plan of action that DL pilots union might take. This happened at AS before with the CSA workgroup in SEA back in 1999. Many, many agents staged a sick-out on that one day and as a result, a few agents got fired for it. There was really no sick-out, it was an overreaction in part of management. I do remember one agent called in sick, got fired and then sued the airline over the termination and she got her job back because she had proof that she had a confirmed doctors appointment that day. She got her job back at the end. Sorry for the off-topic, just trying to make an example....
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
Phollingsworth From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 825 posts, RR: 6 Reply 22, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3330 times:
The problem here is that if DL files for Ch 11. the pilots stand to loose almost everything (even if some get to keep their jobs). DL will probably move to eliminate the pilot pension program. While there are legal obligations to fund the program for current retirees (at least to what was guaranteed, the PBGC is probably going to go after companies that are still around and aren't meeting their obligations), any employee under a defined benefit plan stands top loose most if not all (they may be able to ask for their contributions + risk free interest back).
The pilots keep saying they want similar concessions from other groups. The problem with this statement is that other than top management the other groups are not in the position to give up stuff, they aren't under collective bargaining contracts, the company just takes away the benefit. The pilots are burning their chance to negotiate a deal. Once Ch. 11 is entered, the court takes over.
Remember under bankruptcy the main goal of the judge is to maximize return to the creditors. Ch. 7 does this by selling assets. Ch. 11 allows the company, creditors, an outside group, or a combination to come up with a plan to achieve this. If the plan the court buys into involves voiding the pilots contract, creating a new one without there buy-in, and cut their pay (retroactively even, see Taft-Hartly), the pilots have only one decision: take the deal whole or quit.
There are a couple of reasons that DL has not taken this route yet. First it has a tendency to lead towards long term animosity with the union (provided the union isn't totally broken). Second bankruptcy destroys almost all of the shareholder value. This basically pisses off the markets. The second reason is usually over arching.
One last thing, if Taft-Hartly is invoked and a slow down occurs, the company will go to the court and ask for it to be declared illegal. If this happens union leaders and individual pilots face significant fines and possible criminal sanctions.
Flyguyclt From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 537 posts, RR: 9 Reply 23, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3200 times:
WOW ! And to think that when I started flying in 1987 that "DELTA" was the one everyone wanted to work for and be like. Just shows you how times can change. Somehow, somewhere, the management and employees must get on the same page and trust and faith must be restored. Far too many employee's lives are being destroyed in this industry. Wishing all of us aviation professionals on this board a turbulence free year, soon.