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Delta Pilots Union Vague Warning  
User currently offlineScotron11 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 1178 posts, RR: 3
Posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 5118 times:

According to AP, John Malone, Chairman of DALPA, has threatened that they will "take another path" if Delta management persists in seeking $1BN in concessions from them.

My question is: What is the other path? And where does it lead?





53 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMicstatic From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 775 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 5000 times:

Myopia. The path to an early retirement I'd say.

.
..



S340,DH8,AT7,CR2/7,E135/45/170/190,319,320,717,732,733,734,735,737,738,744,752,762,763,764,772,M80,M90
User currently offlineN6376m From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 4985 times:

Ask the Eastern Airline machinist what direction the "other path" leads to.

User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13507 posts, RR: 62
Reply 3, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 4983 times:
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"Take another path" ? The only thing I can think of would be DALPA attempting to buy up enough stock to take control of DL - but that won't fix their problems; it will only change the name of the guy telling them how to fix them.


"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13507 posts, RR: 62
Reply 4, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 4973 times:
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Ask the Eastern Airline machinist what direction the "other path" leads to.

DALPA must have brought in Charlie Bryan as their chief negotiator.  Nuts



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineSinlock From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1637 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 4925 times:

Ask the Eastern Airline machinist what direction the "other path" leads to.

Actualy, It was more like Lorenzo/Borman and EAL's Machinist were in a fist fight over who got to swallow the poison pill. In the last few weeks they each decided to take half.



My Country can beat up your Country....
User currently offlineSPREE34 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 2240 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4771 times:

Self deception is a horrible thing. Strategic retreat from an unrealistic position is their only reasonable "path."
I predict a battle of wills, resulting in a post summer travel season chaotic disruption of customers plans. How about the week of September 6th. There will be a lot of unproductive aviation emotion in the air that week anyway.



I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
User currently offlineJrlander From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 1104 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4760 times:

I see Delta moving farily quickly to file Ch. 11, and first thing to have that contract thrown out. Once that contract is thrown out, mechanics pay will follow pretty quickly, and a move to dismiss some plane leases not long after that.

User currently offlineAlphascan From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 937 posts, RR: 13
Reply 8, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4732 times:

An excerpt from:

http://www.forbes.com/2004/08/04/0804autofacescan05.html


If management insists on the $1 billion in concessions from the cockpit mavens without asking other "stakeholders" to tighten their belts, the union may "take another path," Malone warned.

I thought I've read in this forum that most if not all other DL employee groups have already taken wage cuts as pilot pay has continued to increase. Am I misinformed? If so, who are the other "stakeholders"?



"To he who only has a hammer in his toolbelt, every problem looks like a nail."
User currently offlineSebring From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 1663 posts, RR: 14
Reply 9, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4707 times:

Aircraft lessors, bondholders, banks and other lenders. It can be a pretty long list

User currently offlineMontanaFL From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 99 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4696 times:

I have commented on this topic before so here I go again. My dad retired from DL with a month shy of 31 yrs. If DL files bankruptcy and he loses most if not all his pension/medical benefits for himself and mom, DL can just sell it self off and never come back. My dad worries everyday if he will have a pension and med benefits after giving 31 yrs to that company. I will never fly DL again and will trash them every chance I get. I DO NOT want to see DL file bankruptcy. I want to see them get their s*** together and get back to being the airline they were yrs ago. C.E. Woolman is rolling over in his grave right now seeing what is taking place.


I miss those DL L-1011's
User currently offlineLono From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 1335 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4657 times:

Alphascan
Employees have taken benefit cuts... but no wage cuts yet...
Stakeholder is anyone having a monetary stake in DL's future....



Wally Bird Ruled the Skys!
User currently offlineMidnightMike From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 2892 posts, RR: 14
Reply 12, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4640 times:

Options

Employee buyout or a stike are options that are open to the union.



NO URLS in signature
User currently offlineTOLtommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3288 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4594 times:

MontanaFL -

It's a tough place for your Dad to be in right now. Hopefully he didn't rely solely on DL to provide a pension for him. You didn't say what position that your Dad retired from? Do you care to share that info? Let me ask you this question. How does your threat to never fly DL again, and to trash them at every chance you get, help protect your Dad's pension and benefits? Some of his former fellow co-workers (again, you don't say what he did at DL) can't see how serious the situation is, or choose not to. How does their action excuse them from any responsibility to help protect the benefits and pensions of those who built the company before them? Don't simply place all the blame on Delta management. Yes, they have a lot of responsibility. But they don't have all of it.


User currently offlineStevenUhl777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 4447 times:

Re: the big-6 major airlines going into Q4: It's a staring match and the first one who "blinks", goes. They all have serious problems, some greater than others. Fuel surely isn't getting any cheaper, that's for sure.

If for some reason the DL pilots decide to strike, goodbye Delta...and in short order. If there is a strike, it would have be settled in a matter of hours, 2 days maximum. A strike is one sure way to kill DL for certain.

If they do propose a buyout, who would agree to it? The first thing anyone will point to is the last few years of the UAL ESOP and the end result. So, throw away that option right now.

MontanaFL: I understand your feeling concerning your Dad: my Dad is a retired UAL mechanic. Granted, he has other things to fall back on, but losing a large portion of his pension and medical from UAL certainly won't make things easier. I wish your Dad well. In the meantime, encourage your friends, etc. to FLY on Delta, I promote United whenever I can. Trashing them and refusing to fly on them accomplishes nothing.

In general, hope things work out for employees at all of the legacy carriers. I'm afraid this fall will bring about a major shakeup in the industry.



User currently offlineN6376m From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 4368 times:

Can anyone name for me a successful employee owned airline?

User currently offlineAuae From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 296 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 4338 times:

"Can anyone name for me a successful employee owned airline?" - N6376m

****

Chirp...chirp (anyone else hear the crickets?)



Air transport is just a glorified bus operation. -Michael O'Leary, Ryanair's chief executive
User currently offlineN6376m From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 4317 times:

My point exactly.

Once again, a union's blind devotion to a theoretical position has ended up hurting it's membership. If the pilots had accepted the pay cuts when they were first asked for, the pain would have been a lot less.

Colin Powell wrote, "Never have your ego so close to your position so that if your position falls, your egos goes with it."


User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 18, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 4297 times:

Employee buyout or a stike are options that are open to the union.

Striking is not an option. Per the Railway Labor Act, the DL pilots cannot strike unless the NMB rules that no progress has been made and gives permission for other means (such as a strike) in the negotiations. Only the NMB can give permission to a union to strike. If the union authorizes its members to go on strike, it would be an illegal strike and the union would be slapped with countless fines plus a lawsuit. Sorry but its the law and its all there in the Railway Labor Act.

Ask the Eastern Airline machinist what direction the "other path" leads to.

My guess is pretty straight forward: Another repeat of the infamous EAL collapse which could mean the end of business for DL.

Like I said in other threads...its a do or die for the DL pilots. Take the pay cut or hit the streets and become unemployed. Its pretty simple!



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineN6376m From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 4286 times:

Remember, there are official strikes and then there are the work slow downs a la American's pilots from several years ago.



User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 20, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 4278 times:

LOL! I forgot about work slowdowns. That could be a plan of action that DL pilots union might take. This happened at AS before with the CSA workgroup in SEA back in 1999. Many, many agents staged a sick-out on that one day and as a result, a few agents got fired for it. There was really no sick-out, it was an overreaction in part of management. I do remember one agent called in sick, got fired and then sued the airline over the termination and she got her job back because she had proof that she had a confirmed doctors appointment that day. She got her job back at the end. Sorry for the off-topic, just trying to make an example....


A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineAlphascan From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 937 posts, RR: 13
Reply 21, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 4249 times:

Work slowdowns........Great Idea. Drive away the paying passengers. UALMEC already tried that.

That's exactly what Mr. Leonard and Mr. Fornaro are praying for every day to fill all those new aircraft.



"To he who only has a hammer in his toolbelt, every problem looks like a nail."
User currently offlinePhollingsworth From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 825 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 4234 times:

The problem here is that if DL files for Ch 11. the pilots stand to loose almost everything (even if some get to keep their jobs). DL will probably move to eliminate the pilot pension program. While there are legal obligations to fund the program for current retirees (at least to what was guaranteed, the PBGC is probably going to go after companies that are still around and aren't meeting their obligations), any employee under a defined benefit plan stands top loose most if not all (they may be able to ask for their contributions + risk free interest back).

The pilots keep saying they want similar concessions from other groups. The problem with this statement is that other than top management the other groups are not in the position to give up stuff, they aren't under collective bargaining contracts, the company just takes away the benefit. The pilots are burning their chance to negotiate a deal. Once Ch. 11 is entered, the court takes over.

Remember under bankruptcy the main goal of the judge is to maximize return to the creditors. Ch. 7 does this by selling assets. Ch. 11 allows the company, creditors, an outside group, or a combination to come up with a plan to achieve this. If the plan the court buys into involves voiding the pilots contract, creating a new one without there buy-in, and cut their pay (retroactively even, see Taft-Hartly), the pilots have only one decision: take the deal whole or quit.

There are a couple of reasons that DL has not taken this route yet. First it has a tendency to lead towards long term animosity with the union (provided the union isn't totally broken). Second bankruptcy destroys almost all of the shareholder value. This basically pisses off the markets. The second reason is usually over arching.

One last thing, if Taft-Hartly is invoked and a slow down occurs, the company will go to the court and ask for it to be declared illegal. If this happens union leaders and individual pilots face significant fines and possible criminal sanctions.


User currently offlineFlyguyclt From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 537 posts, RR: 8
Reply 23, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 4104 times:

WOW ! And to think that when I started flying in 1987 that "DELTA" was the one everyone wanted to work for and be like. Just shows you how times can change. Somehow, somewhere, the management and employees must get on the same page and trust and faith must be restored. Far too many employee's lives are being destroyed in this industry. Wishing all of us aviation professionals on this board a turbulence free year, soon.

Safe Flying  Smile



Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
User currently offlineN6376m From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3940 times:

Any time a union contract specifically provides that they are to be the highest paid in the industry - trouble is sure to follow.

25 AZjetgeek : "Remember under bankruptcy the main goal of the judge is to maximize return to the creditors." Really? Phollingsworth, go back and read "Grounded" by
26 EA CO AS : Any time a union contract specifically provides that they are to be the highest paid in the industry - trouble is sure to follow. Agreed. The "We want
27 WGW2707 : The Delta pilots have forced Delta to cut the wages of the non-union employees with their absurd payscales, currently "industry-leading" (or trailing,
28 Post contains images Aa717driver : "Work slowdowns" At a legacy carrier? Who could tell? Everyone needs to chill out. DALPA has a LONG list of examples of pilot groups that bought the c
29 EA CO AS : WGW - While I agree with you on most points, TW's pilots were screwed long before ALPA's agreement with AA regarding the integration (or lack thereof)
30 Aa777jr : DL will be the next major airline to go bankrupt, look for CO and NWA to take over DL's fleet, like AA did to TWA and CO did to Eastern.
31 AZjetgeek : WGW2707 - "I personally think Delta should stand up to ALPA, and if it comes down to it, lock them out, and move to a new non-ALPA workforce." You're
32 Post contains images Aa717driver : EA CO AS--TWA filed Ch. 11 in 2001 as a contrivance to get rid of debt and Carl Icahn. The filing was specifically designed(ie. the section of the ban
33 Slider : And so the saber-rattling begins under nebulous loaded comments such as "take another path." I feel for the good folks at DL, because methinks a rocky
34 StearmanNut : This is really sad. I hate to see the demise of a darn good airline. Delta pilots (like all other airline pilots) deserve the rate of pay they get. Th
35 N6376m : Again I ask, can someone name a successful airline which is owned by it's unions?
36 EA CO AS : EA CO AS--TWA filed Ch. 11 in 2001 as a contrivance to get rid of debt and Carl Icahn. The filing was specifically designed(ie. the section of the ban
37 Phollingsworth : "Remember under bankruptcy the main goal of the judge is to maximize return to the creditors." Really? Phollingsworth, go back and read "Grounded" by
38 N6376m : Part of the problem is that DL already entered the "death spiral." Poor financial results make it increasingly more difficult to obtain financing/work
39 Ifly2eat : WGW2707, Your post shows your limited knowledge of airline labor contracts and The Railway Labor Act. Stick to topics that you know more about.
40 Aa717driver : N6376m--To answer your question, no. There aren't any. EA CO AS--I don't disagree with anything in your last post. Well put.TC
41 AirframeAS : As we saw in the AA takeover and decimation of TWA, ALPA doesn't really give a @#!% about their members. Ive been saying this on EVERY union thread:
42 Tarantine : Just curious, IF DL was liquidated to the future, would airtran be the major airline at ATL or would others step in?
43 Isitsafenow : Hey DL pilots...After that comment the other day, I sold my few shares of stock in DL and bought some in AirTran....Good luck to all DL employees in t
44 DeltaSFO : Well, it's nice to see some things haven't changed here. Plenty of "expert opinions" here at airliners. The DALPA warning is entertaining, to say the
45 Jumpseat70 : But the PILOTS are the only ones who HAVEN'T contributed...
46 Av8trxx : [This article appeared in the last issue of the DFW Round Up, before Delta's pilots offered their latest concession package.] Judge: Ok, let’s get t
47 N6376m : The article begins with a false premise - the bankruptcy code does not require that you do everything in your power to prevent bankruptcy. As for the
48 Isitsafenow : Nice try on the "day in court" but bankruptcy court usually does NOT deny a bankruptcy request. It does happen but not often. It takes usually about 5
49 Post contains images Airportugal310 : Can anyone name for me a successful employee owned airline? Gladly....Cape Air (9K) And before you retort with "thats not a real airline blah blah bla
50 XFSUgimpLB41X : I believe the point of the article was not that bankruptcy will be denied, but to show the foolishness of the management.
51 DeltaSFO : Sounds like something straight out of the ALPA propaganda archive.
52 TxAgKuwait : >>The article begins with a false premise - the bankruptcy code does not require that you do everything in your power to prevent bankruptcy
53 AirframeAS : But the PILOTS are the only ones who HAVEN'T contributed... Agreed, but I also wonder why they have not even tried to help keep DL afloat. Or should I
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