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Why No DFW-LHR Service?  
User currently offlineSquirrel83 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 4497 times:

Why is there no DFW-LHR Service and if there is who? I looked into most airlines and even BA doesnt have a DFW destination. . and I know AA flys DFW-LGW, and they fly threw ORD-LHR.

Just thought it was interesting that no one flys DFW-LHR direct.

40 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDaumueller From Germany, joined Nov 2003, 693 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 4458 times:

simple question / simple answer: Bermuda II

according to bermuda II, no airline is allowed to fly DFW-LHR since AA flys DFW-LGW

cheers,

ben


User currently offlineFLY777UAL From United States of America, joined May 1999, 4512 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 4455 times:

Under the Bermuda II pact between the US and the UK, Dallas/Ft. Worth is not one of the "approved" metro city areas which is eligible to receive service from Heathrow.

Interestingly enough, BA has a provision in the pact which states that if no US carrier is operating the route from a LGW-designated city, then they are able to switch that authority over to LHR.

F L Y 7 7 7 U A L


User currently offlineSquirrel83 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 4443 times:

The air agreement between the two countries, known as Bermuda II after the place it was negotiated, has been in force since 1977. It limits access to the market, especially to London's Heathrow Airport, and controls pricing . Efforts to negotiate an open skies agreement that would free up competition have been fruitless, with U.S. negotiators breaking off the most recent round of talks after seeing no signs of a willingness to change on the part of their British counterparts and suspending all future negotiations indefinitely.

'For over 20 years the U.K. has withstood all of the unrelenting attacks on the agreement ... and has steadily increased its dominance in the U.S.-U.K. market to the detriment of U.S. consumers,' Wolf said. 'At this point there is only one proper course of action for the U.S. government to follow: renounce Bermuda II.'

When a country renounces an air agreement, the terms of the agreement remain in force for one year after which air travel usually continues on a reciprocal basis until a new agreement is negotiated.

The U.K. unilaterally renounced the first Bermuda agreement, a more consumer-friendly, pro-competition pact, in 1976 and threatened to block all air service unless the U.S. agreed to the more restrictive Bermuda II accord.

Hmm interesting; I guess im stunned that such a market mover city such as DFW wouldnt be approved or ever applied . . .


User currently offlineThomasphoto60 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 4021 posts, RR: 26
Reply 4, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 4359 times:

IAH is in the same boat as DFW, though we do have a direct BA flight via ORD. Houston has been fighting for a N/S LHR service since the late 60s....one day perhaps.

Thomas



"Show me the Braniffs"
User currently offlineAdh214 From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 360 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 4338 times:

BTW, BA does provide service between DFW and LGW.

Andrew

[Edited 2004-08-09 13:56:14]

User currently offlineTrident2e From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 4303 times:

Fly777UAL - that's very interesting. Would there ever be a case for AA stopping LGW service, thereby allowing BA to have the route authority transferred to LHR, then to code share with BA on an LHR service?

User currently offlineSnoopy From Switzerland, joined Oct 2001, 370 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 4287 times:

BA does provide service between DFW and LGW.

A remnant of the BCAL days....I remember flying LGW-DFW-LGW in 1980 when I went over to do my PPL. It was a great flight.....


User currently offlineAa777jr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 4278 times:

That Bermuda II agreement is crazy, learn something new everyday. Regards.

User currently offlineJasepl From India, joined Jul 2004, 3582 posts, RR: 39
Reply 9, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 4252 times:

This has been done to death, but here's what Bermuda II says:

Flights can go to LHR only from these airports:
ANC, BWI, BOS, ORD, DTW, LAX, MIA, MSP, JFK, EWR, PHL, SFO, SEA, IAD

In addition the designated British carriers (BA & VS) may fly from LHR to the following airports provided an American carrier is not already flying from said airport to LGW:
ATL, DFW, DEN, IAH, PHX, PIT, SAN, SFO, TPA.

This means that, were UA to start DEN-LGW, BA too would have to switch their flights to LGW. Conversely, if AA were to stop flying DFW-LGW, BA can start DFW-LHR.

I might have messed up a couple of the airports, but I think I got them largely right.

* Note that Bermuda II only governs British and American carriers. This means, in theory at least, that those carriers that have access to US airports from LHR (AI, KU and NZ) can fly LHR-DFW if they manage to negotiate it!


User currently offlineAntonovman From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 724 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 4224 times:

I think when BA "merged" with Bcal, one of the stipulations was that the ex BCal
services to the US were not moved to LHR for some reason


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33280 posts, RR: 71
Reply 11, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 4172 times:

Hmm interesting; I guess im stunned that such a market mover city such as DFW wouldnt be approved or ever applied . . .

Cities didn't get approved, nor did they apply. The US cities that had non-stop flights to Heathrow when the pact was signed were grandfatherd in: Boston, New York City, Newark, Washington, Miami, Detroit, Chicago, Los Angeles, San Francisco, and Seattle.

BA does provide service between DFW and LGW.


No, BA flies DTW-LHR.



a.
User currently offline7LBAC111 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2004, 2566 posts, RR: 35
Reply 12, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 4152 times:

MAH456

BA do actually fly DFW-LGW as BA2192/2193 every day on 772's




Debate is what you put on de hook when you want to catch de fish.
User currently offlineBartond From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 791 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 4131 times:

I'm doubting that AA will ever stop DFW-LGW service seeing as they have 3x daily flights in the summer and double daily 772s for the rest of the year. They do quite a bit better than BA on this route.

User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33280 posts, RR: 71
Reply 14, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 4104 times:

MAH456

BA do actually fly DFW-LGW as BA2192/2193 every day on 772's


Nevermind, I for some reason though they poster said DTW-LGW. Sorry about that. Yes, BA does fly DFW-LGW, though it is one their poorest performing trans-Atlantic routes.



a.
User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 4008 times:

BA has a provision in the pact which states that if no US carrier is operating the route from a LGW-designated city, then they are able to switch that authority over to LHR

...assuming they can meet the required pax throughput between that city and London every 2 consecutive years.



then to code share with BA on an LHR service?

AA cannot codeshare on any BA transatlantic flight that operates between the USA and London or vice versa.


User currently offlineStearmanNut From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 352 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 3857 times:

PHX has a daily PHX-LHR flight. 747-400. Used to be a 777, but evidently, they needed more seats. I lay in the pool every evening and I see this big beautiful monster overhead at about 8:10PM as it departs northeastward off PHX 26R.


If wishes were horses, a Tail Dragger I would fly...
User currently offlineNWA757 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 172 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 3845 times:

According to a knowledgable source no airline is allowed to fly DFW-LHR since AA flys DFW-LGW. It would be nice to see British Airways fly to LHR out of DFW. Maybe in the future.....



Fly High!
User currently offlineMuttley35 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2004, 126 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 3796 times:

Nevermind, I for some reason though they poster said DTW-LGW. Sorry about that. Yes, BA does fly DFW-LGW, though it is one their poorest performing trans-Atlantic routes.
What are the figures to back this statement ? I fly this route a couple times each year and have yet to see a spare seat .In fact I have prayed for a half full plane but to no avail.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33280 posts, RR: 71
Reply 19, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 3792 times:

What are the figures to back this statement ? I fly this route a couple times each year and have yet to see a spare seat .In fact I have prayed for a half full plane but to no avail.

I don't have figures, I have sources, which I have no reason to doubt. The route was on its death bed and almost dropped back in 2002. There was even some little mentions of it in public media.

Regardless of how full or empty the flight is, BA has not been able to lure lucrative business travelers on the route, as AA has them all. Also, this route will likely loose first class service in 2005, in favour of the C/Y+/Y config used to destinations like Denver, Calcutta, and Montreal. BA will be expanding use of this configuration in 2005. Dallas is a very likely canidate. Atlanta also looks like it will loose first class.




a.
User currently offlineBartond From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 791 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 3773 times:

Muttley - I'm not positive on whether or not the route performs great/poorly but if you go to DFWairport.com and find traffic statistics, you can see how many pax fly on the route each month. Divide the # of pax by 30 or so days in the month and figure out how many pax/flight. The past few months it has been in the 150-190 area, not nearly enough to fill a 772 (how many seats does BA have on their transatlantic 772s?).

So, I think people assume that the reason they keep the flight going is that BA must sell a good number of the premium seats on a consistent basis.


User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 3772 times:

Barton...

...they're still waiting on you at Airwise  Laugh out loud


User currently offlineSquirrel83 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 3757 times:

Thanx for the responses ~

Here is the seating for the 772 atlantic ~ it looks about right 190 pax http://www.seatguru.com/british/B777.shtml


119 in Economy on a 772


[Edited 2004-08-09 23:38:00]

User currently offlineBartond From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 791 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 3749 times:

Squirrel - I might be retarded but I'm counting about 229 seats. Either way I don't think this flight ever goes out very full.

Muttley - you said you fly this route a few times a year and it does well?


User currently offlineMuttley35 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2004, 126 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 3728 times:

Bartond, No what I said in response to MAH's comments that the route performs poorly was that whenever I have flown it the plane has been full.Maybe I am just flying on the wrong days ?? In fact last year I got an upgrade because economy was full as did the lady sat next to me.Which I guess backs up MAH's other comment that BA are struggling to attract business passengers on this route.
The last time I did a net search on this route I found a good number of indirect routes from LGW to DFW with AA which may also be impacting on numbers but I can only repeat that in my experience economy at least has always been full.


25 Muttley35 : By the way I am flying this route Saturday and returning Sunday so if I can see straight I will give a full report Monday night
26 Zonks : By the way, does anyone have a link to the exact wording of Bermuda II? This topic seems to come up a lot here on A.net and it'd be useful to be able
27 Texdravid : You want to know why the BA LGW-DFW-LGW flight may not be performing up to expectations? Because a large part of a transatlantic crowd from DFW are fo
28 FlyCaledonian : It's been mentioned on here plenty of times that BA apparently has poor yields from premium passengers on the LGW-DFW route. Just because the flight i
29 Post contains links Squirrel83 : Here are some Interesting links on the Bermuda II agreement http://www.logisticsturku.fi/logistics/bulletin.nsf/0/fc4c7389b8268078c2256dc9003b5f77?Ope
30 Bartond : Oh Caledonian I thought it was the opposite - BA does fairly well filling up the premium seats but overall does not fill up the plane very well. I tho
31 MontanaFL : If I understand this correctly, according to Jasepl comments above, BA could fly TPA-LHR. Why then is BA flying TPA-LGW and not LHR? From what I under
32 Brons2 : perhaps they should get more serious about routing more traffic into LGW if it's such a problem to give up slots at LHR.
33 Cbphoto : Jasepl: Interesting how on that list MSP is the only city without non-stop service to LHR. Why is that??? No market, too much competition from NWA, al
34 Newkai : Wasn't there once DFW-IAD-LHR Concorde service codeshared with Braniff?
35 Jasepl : MontanaFL: I might have messed up a couple of the airports and TPA might be one of them! Sorry! Cbphoto: American carriers are permitted to fly MSP-LH
36 ConcordeBoy : So if BA wants more traffic, send us to the big honcho airport in London. ...they'd love nothing more. Only problem being: it's not their decision to
37 Jasepl : and no, before some moron screams it... SQ never operated Concorde service Don't be so sure Concordeboy! There was a joint BA-SQ Concorde service betw
38 Post contains images ConcordeBoy : Don't be so sure Concordeboy! There was a joint BA-SQ Concorde service between London and Singapore Sorry Jase, but.... *hands Jasepl the baited-moron
39 Jasepl : whether it was technically an SQ-operated service may be up for debate Dear Concordeboy, I knew you'd come up with something! That's why I wrote the u
40 Post contains images ConcordeBoy : lol, finally... new members with a decent sense of humor
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