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DL MD-11s - Retired Or Not?  
User currently offlineAA7573E From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 475 posts, RR: 2
Posted (10 years 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 2934 times:

There has been a lot of speculation as of recent as to whether or not DL will bring the MD-11 fleet, or part of it, out of the sand and back into the air. Can someone back this up, one way or the other. Let's keep the "I wish they woulds" out of this, and see if some DL folks have any concrete they can pour around this topic.

Anything?


See you up front!
19 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineMaiznblu_757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5112 posts, RR: 50
Reply 1, posted (10 years 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 2912 times:

Posted just a bit ago.

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1690830/


User currently offlineAA7573E From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 475 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (10 years 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 2893 times:

@Maiznblu_757

I posted this after reading the other thread. I thought it was poorly titled, and would not draw the right traffic to answer the question. The only reply in it is trash, so I thought putting up MD 11 and DL in a thread topic would get some attention.

Sooner or later, someone who knows will post!




See you up front!
User currently offlineCumulonimbus From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (10 years 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 2852 times:


AA7573E I posted the other thread and I agree that it was Poorly Titled.
I think this one should stay in turn.

Regards
Mike


User currently offlineDazed767 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 5497 posts, RR: 51
Reply 4, posted (10 years 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 2844 times:

They are retired. Last flight was in early January (5th?).

User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 5, posted (10 years 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 2825 times:

They could unground them.

Many of them are owned outright, and there's an existing pilot agreement that doesn't kill DL.

Since they aren't taking any new 777s, they may find they need to unground the MD-11s in order to do any expansion.

As far as performance goes, the M11 would be fine to replace the 777 on Atlantic routes, if they need to free them up for the Pacific.

N


User currently offlineAA7573E From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 475 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (10 years 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 2819 times:

@Dazed767

Right. We know that the fleet has been retired. However, in reading press from DL, reports from market analysts, and postings out here, it appears that DL might be bringing them back.

The logic being much the same that keeps NWA's fleet of DC-9's flying. They are all paid for. Operating a plane that carries no leases costs or related debt, will dramatically reduce the overall operating cost of each flight that ship flies. So NWA flying 6 flights a day on a well aged DC9 costs less, and in broad strokes, produces more revenue than operating the same flights with the same loads on a brand new A320. I'm not trying to get into a discussion about where the A320 could go and where the DC9 could not go, in terms of legs. Only using it as an example, of why older aircraft that are paid off - are not necessarily bad choices for major airlines to operate. And lets call a spade a spade. The MD-11s are not that old. They have glass cockpits and incorporate many of the next generation features seen in 777s. The long and the short of it is, if DL gives back some 777s, and washes the dust of the MD-11's, taking time to ensure that the cabin products meet current service levels, they should be able to operate very competitively - on a bottom line basis - compared to DL's other long haul high density options.




See you up front!
User currently offlineAA7573E From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 475 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (10 years 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 2809 times:

@Gigneil

That is what I was thinking. I had read that the contract agreement with the pilots was such that bringing them back would not be a deal killer. That, would seem to have been one of the largest obstacles with getting them up again. I would not imagine that DL would need to bring them all back either, so the ones owned would be the ideal ships. Any idea of how many we are talking about here?



See you up front!
User currently offlineQuickmover From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 2494 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (10 years 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 2797 times:

Have some of these already been sold? I didn't think they had that many.

User currently offlineAA7573E From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 475 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (10 years 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 2786 times:

Quickmover

Take a look at this link:
http://www.delta.com/inside/investors/corp_info/fleet/index.jsp

According to the fleet numbers on DL's website, they currently own 8 and have outstanding leases on 5. So there are 8 birds they could bring back to service. I know one ship has some serious MX issues (the one that has been written up on many threads here - is it still at ATL), but I am not sure if that one is owned or leased.




See you up front!
User currently offlineTokyoNarita From Palau, joined Aug 2003, 570 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (10 years 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 2706 times:

Gigneil said it perfectly.

Time will tell..Delta needs to get over the financial hump first...until then we will not see any clear indication of whether MD-11s will return or not...

TokyoNarita.


User currently offlineCancidas From Poland, joined Jul 2003, 4112 posts, RR: 11
Reply 11, posted (10 years 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 2664 times:

what with the @gigniel and @dazed767????


"...cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home."
User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (10 years 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 2641 times:

Since they aren't taking any new 777s

Actually, they will. The (BS) of them selling/leasing them off has been overridden.


User currently offlineMaiznblu_757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5112 posts, RR: 50
Reply 13, posted (10 years 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 2607 times:

@ Whoever thinks they will be placed back in service...  Nuts

User currently offlineNWA757 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 172 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (10 years 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 2583 times:

Unfortuneatly they are retired. However, I agree that it would be nice to see them flying in the near future.


Fly High!
User currently offlineBA747400 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 428 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (10 years 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 2581 times:

Its funny you guys should mention this topic because just yesterday I was transferring in ATL and saw a MD-11 by their hanger. Is this the MD-11 that caught fire a while ago? I flew the MD-11 wayyyy to long ago to hold a strong opinion on the aircraft, but I do, however, like the 777 a lot and would like to see more in DL's fleet. (I can wish!) The biggest downfall to the MD is its high operating costs. Not to mention that many of the stored aircrafts are going to need some major TLC after sitting in the desert for so long un-run. What they don't want is to add new routes and then spend tons of money to keep and fix these planes running and operational...this would just add to the debt, something they DONT need!
That all being said, if DL thinks the profits will outweigh the operating costs, more power to them; at this point in the game, the "major" carriers can use every penny they can get.

Regards,
Mike


User currently offlineAA7573E From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 475 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (10 years 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 2580 times:

Are we sure that they are taking the 777s (and if so how many of the 8 that they still have on order), or is that an A.net rumor? There has been so much going around about DL, its hard to tell at this point.

Suffice it to say, putting the MD-11's on select trans Atlantic routes would not result in a dramatic drop in capacity. I believe DL's MD-11's carry a max PAX load of 265 and the 777s carry a max of 277. That is a round trip removal of 24 seats - not a huge loss considering you have also removed the ownership costs of the aircraft (short of MX, fuel and the other base costs). Freeing up the 777s for longer haul Pacific routes.

Also consider that under the current DL contract, an MD11 Captain makes $305 per hour and the FO makes $208. Their counterparts in the 777 make $320 and $218 respectively - further adding to the cost savings associated with flying these birds.

http://www.willflyforfood.cc/Payscales/DeltaPay.htm




See you up front!
User currently offlineDvk From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 1058 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (10 years 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 2545 times:

DL has recently deferred delivery of its remaining 777's until 2008-9. As has been noted elsewhere, the five leased and parked MD11's have another decade on their leases, so Delta's stuck with them unless they can find a sub-lessee. What Gigneil said is absolutely correct. Read Delta's annual report if you're in doubt--it calls the MD 11 retirement "temporary", so there is the possibility that the planes could be returned to service if there is a demand.


I'm not dumb. I just have a command of thoroughly useless information.
User currently offlineGr8SlvrFlt From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 1603 posts, RR: 10
Reply 18, posted (10 years 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 2525 times:

There has been speculation, which is all we're doing here anyway, that Delta may sell/lease out it's current 777 fleet to simplify and to beat up on the pilots. ATL-NRT is the only DL route that cannot be flown with the 767 leading to further speculation that the MD-11 be called back to fly the route or else NRT could be scrapped or even ATL-NRT subbed out to Skyteam partner Northwest. With the state of the industry in general and Delta in particular, anything is possible.

User currently offlineAA7573E From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 475 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (10 years 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 2522 times:

@BA747400

The DL MD-11 fleet has not been in the desert that long. I think it is also a long shot to assume they have not recieved the regular storage maintenance that most aircraft get, that have a chance at a second life. This includes running the engines and major systems, testing the flight controls, and rotating the wheels to prevent warping (the list goes on). You bet they will need some TLC, but they have not been largely ignored while they have been in storage. Even if DL never wants to fly them again, they want them in good shape to sell.

In terms of operating costs, I think you are missing the point I am making. Yes, the 777 is a cheaper plane to operate - in terms of actual aircraft performance, fuel burn and son on. However, DL does not own the 777s free and clear, thus the operating costs of the 777s must include their allocated debt amounts - which for the MD-11s is ZERO. They are still making payments on the 777s, thus raising the overall operating costs to a point that makes them non competitive in comparison to the MD-11 on certain routes.



[Edited 2004-08-09 22:17:40]


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