Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Future Of STL  
User currently offlineMoman From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 1054 posts, RR: 4
Posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2380 times:

Doesn't it make sense with the cutbacks that will be taking place in ORD for AA to shift some flights to the STL airport?

Granted, STL is an older airport but with a little investment it could easily handle additional flights quite comfortably and nicely.

With the new runway coming online in a couple years, that's even more incentive for AA to increase the flights.

Seems like the positives of the STL market (good central US location, large runways, dual ILS approaches (future), and easily expandable capacity) outweigh the negatives (older airport, poor food service, weak local demand).

If I remember right, AA said when buying TWA that it would give them a central US hub that would be a good reliever airport to ORD. Let's see 'em make good on their words.

Just my two cents.


AA Platinum Member - American Airlines Forever
24 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineLambertMan From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2064 posts, RR: 36
Reply 1, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2316 times:

While the possibility does remain that they will add flights back to STL if the FAA mandates cuts at O'Hare, I wouldn't really bank on it. There is a very limited number of feasible markets from STL due to the WN factor, limiting possible expansion opportunities. There are only a handful of markets that could actually use service from AA (PDX, SJC, SMF, YYZ, PBI, RIC), so I wouldn't bank on a mass expansion.
The positives outweigh the negatives probably only for AA due to their large following dating back to the TW days. They are the only ones besides F9 to an extent, who sees STL as a possible future expansion point. The demand isn't all that weak, 10 million o/d pax a year is a pretty solid market, better than the likes of CLE, SLC, CVG, CLT, PIT etc.

AA did make good on their word for having a third midwestern hub, and found out that matching $79 fares to TUL wasn't the way to go....


User currently offlineMoman From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 1054 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2267 times:

Darn WN.

How full are the flights leaving STL Lamberman? I remember reading some aviation consultant that said TW had way over-serviced the STL market for years, but I guess it's just wishful thinking of the good old days when TW jets would occupy every slot.



AA Platinum Member - American Airlines Forever
User currently offlineAccess-Air From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1939 posts, RR: 14
Reply 3, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2254 times:

AA should have left STL as it was before Nov 1st, 2003 instead of eliminating all those flighst and JOBS!!! and shifting all those flights to ORD...Now they are paying a price for their action.
What goes around comes around and they will find that they should have stayed with STL.....Funny how hindsight is always 20/20......
But thats just the AAmerican Way!!!!

Access-Air



Remember, Wherever you go, there you are!!!!
User currently offlineDAYGS From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 62 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2239 times:

Access-Air, have you chatted with your therapist about this?

User currently offlineLambertMan From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2064 posts, RR: 36
Reply 5, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2246 times:

The flights in the TW era were largely connecting, MD-80's to CID and 757's to IND, give me a break. TW 001 to HNL was about 80% connecting passengers, 20% local demand. One big stopping point...

As for AA's presence now, many of the mainline flights go out near or completely full year round. However, flights to places like BOS, DCA, SFO, and LGA don't go out nearly as full as some of the others, but they are probably the best routes AA has going from St Louis. They have very minimal competition, and business pax manage to fill up many of the seats. This is the case with SNA also, its AA's highest yielding market out of STL, but only has enough demand to justify a once daily.

Flights to the leisure destinations obviously fill up since they are still around considering the yield, LAS, MCO, FLL, RSW, SAN, MSY, TPA all run full pretty much everyday. SAN especially, I haven't seen a seat open on that flight for a long time....

The strong American Connection routes would include DCA, PHL (yield is great), ATL, EWR, and RDU. Those are the routes that would have the best chance in the future of being converted to AA mainline. The marketing director said that expansion will come, but very slowly. He also commented there were a "handful" of RJ markets that may be upgraded to mainline, my best guesses are listed above.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32219 posts, RR: 72
Reply 6, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2189 times:

St. Louis may be benefit, but Miami and Dallas stand to benefit more on pending O'Hare cuts.

In Dallas, look for more O'Hare destinations to be connected non-stop to Dallas as a way not only to relieve congestion at O'Hare, but also to open up more connecting oppurtunities. For example, the new DFW-PIA service.

In Miami, AA will continue to elimate the O'Hare stop, and open up mainline service on potential new routes like MIA-SEA and MIA-MCI. This also will bring in more Caribbean connecting passengers who either have to double connect for fly US Airways.



a.
User currently offlineScottysAir From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2177 times:

MAH4546,

This is one of MIA-SEA from 2 years ago was discontinue with their service and now, it will might to decide begin new service from MIA-SEA on their B767 aircraft. I know this one exactly goes on connecting to SEA flight. AS is already service for nonstop to SEA, correct?

As for MCI really need to beefing up more new nonstop from MIA-MCI and I know one NJ is use on FLL-MCI from 2 years ago and it was only for short term on Vanguard to MCI.


User currently offlineBlhp68 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 149 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2175 times:

LambertMan:
I saw you mentioned STL O&D was around 10 million pax. Do you know where I might be able to retrieve a list of airports and their O&D? I am just curious about how MCI stacks up against other airports.


User currently offlineERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6731 posts, RR: 18
Reply 9, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2166 times:

MCI is #12

St. Louis, MO and Chicago, IL 258 1,809 $87.62
St. Louis, MO and New York, NY 892 1,216 $201.28
St. Louis, MO and Detroit, MI 440 818 $92.69
St. Louis, MO and Baltimore, MD 737 744 $132.67
St. Louis, MO and Dallas/Ft. Worth, TX 551 740 $164.37
St. Louis, MO and Orlando/Kissimmee, FL 880 728 $128.41
St. Louis, MO and Los Angeles, CA 1,593 695 $221.88
St. Louis, MO and Phoenix, AZ 1,262 654 $138.89
St. Louis, MO and Houston, TX 687 651 $150.10
St. Louis, MO and Las Vegas, NV 1,372 595 $169.16
St. Louis, MO and Washington, DC 719 567 $202.75
St. Louis, MO and Kansas City, MO 237 538 $69.92



Aiming High and going far..
User currently offlineBlhp68 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 149 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2147 times:

ERJ170:
Thanks for the info. What I was looking for was MCI's O&D numbers, I think it is around 8 million. I was wondering how they stack up against other aiports (hence MCI would be behind STL but ahead of say, AUS). Thanks for that info though, interesting.


User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7504 posts, RR: 8
Reply 11, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 2112 times:

Dont know about that, but Terminal A is awful and the security part sucks, i was there and could not go someplace good to eat because of the way that security is set up, Terminal is ugly and run down.  Sad


"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineAtcboy73 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 1100 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 2084 times:

I wonder if we might see something like this in the future.

AA moving more mainline flying to ORD and Eagle RJs to STL. For example, STL-BOS, cut the two mainline AA flights and replace them with 4 RJs. The mainline a/c could go to ORD and the RJ that came to STL would be from ORD. I know it sounds a little simple but do you know what I mean?

Lambertman

Baltimore and DTW on you list are kinda high. I guess that is what a low cost carrier can do to a route. STL-BWI is higher than STL-DFW when the route to BWI only has 5 daily flights on it. STL-DFW has something like what, 13 dailies.

As far as further growth in terms of daily departures, I bet we will eventually see some Eagle RJs at STL and small amounts of flights added over time. It would seem to me that there are many markets that could use one more RJ flight a day (like STL-BOS, EWR, PHL, DCA, ATL, MSP, DEN and COS).

And then there are the three destinations that could use AA Connection or Eagle service but don't seem to get it. MLI, IAH and DTW could each probably handle three flights a day with Jetstreams and RJs, respectively


User currently offlineInnocuousFox From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2805 posts, RR: 15
Reply 13, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 1922 times:

"instead of eliminating all those flighst and JOBS!!!"

What crap that is. You don't/can't stay in business at a facility simply to provide jobs. If you are losing money there, eventually the jobs will go away and all your warm, fuzzy, altruistic intentions will be gone anyway.



Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!
User currently offlineNewkai From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 330 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 1754 times:

I'm wondering...

STL is still called an AA hub. How many flights a day do they have compared to how many US flights PIT will have after the cuts? US will stop calling PIT a hub, but, if I'm not mistaken, US will still have a greater presence at PIT than AA has at STL?


User currently offlineAtcboy73 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 1100 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 1718 times:

At my last count AA had 217 total flights a day at STL.

Does anyone know how this compares to NW @ MEM or CO @ CLE?


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32219 posts, RR: 72
Reply 16, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1700 times:

STL is still called an AA hub. How many flights a day do they have compared to how many US flights PIT will have after the cuts?

After the second round of cuts in early 2005, Pittsburgh will likely have less than 100 flights a day on US Airways.



a.
User currently offlineZID From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 294 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 1657 times:

Actually Lambertman, STL's O&D can't be 10 million. If you'll look here: http://www.bts.gov/publications/national_transportation_statistics/2003/html/table_01_41.html , at the US Department of Transportation's Bureau of Transportation Statistics enplaned passengers rankings for 2003, you'll see that STL had 9,302,358 enplaned passengers last year. Since STL with the TWA/AA hub had consistently run at 45% to 48% O&D, we'd be looking at around four and a half million enplaned O & D passengers.

Unless you were talking about total O&D passenger volume (enplaned and deplaned). But I don't care if you do count when I get on the plane to Las Vegas and when I get off of the plane from Las Vegas, I am not two people.



I'm not joking! This is my job!
User currently offlineLambertMan From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2064 posts, RR: 36
Reply 18, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 1611 times:

Well, all is I know that last time I looked it was 10 million just ahead of MSY and MCI....

User currently offlineKennedy1 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 76 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1556 times:

MCI is #12

St. Louis, MO and Chicago, IL 258 1,809 $87.62
St. Louis, MO and New York, NY 892 1,216 $201.28
St. Louis, MO and Detroit, MI 440 818 $92.69
St. Louis, MO and Baltimore, MD 737 744 $132.67
St. Louis, MO and Dallas/Ft. Worth, TX 551 740 $164.37
St. Louis, MO and Orlando/Kissimmee, FL 880 728 $128.41
St. Louis, MO and Los Angeles, CA 1,593 695 $221.88
St. Louis, MO and Phoenix, AZ 1,262 654 $138.89
St. Louis, MO and Houston, TX 687 651 $150.10
St. Louis, MO and Las Vegas, NV 1,372 595 $169.16
St. Louis, MO and Washington, DC 719 567 $202.75
St. Louis, MO and Kansas City, MO 237 538 $69.92


Is that last $ figure the average fare paid?


User currently offlineERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6731 posts, RR: 18
Reply 20, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 1484 times:

It's the average one-way fare


Aiming High and going far..
User currently offlineMoman From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 1054 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1388 times:

Sorry to ask, but what is O&D?


AA Platinum Member - American Airlines Forever
User currently offlineMSYtristar From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 6419 posts, RR: 51
Reply 22, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1380 times:

O&D=Origin and Destination traffic (example: The number of people starting/ending their journey in STL; not making connections)


Next trip: MSY-SEA-GEG-SEA-LWS-BOI-PDX-SEA-LAS on AS
User currently offlineAirplanePeanut From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 452 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1371 times:

What's the possibility of AA selling any getes at STL? IMHO I think another arline should make a deal with aa and get some gates. It wouldnt be a Bad focus city for an LCC. It's pretty close to the center of the USA. Heck, B6 might benifit from having a midwest hub.

Just My 2 Cents!

AirplanePeanut


..
User currently offlinePilotpip From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3139 posts, RR: 11
Reply 24, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 1349 times:

When AA announced the cuts, the airport authority required them to sell excess gates and slots as a result, they have moved all operations to the B and some of the C concourse. The D concourse is almost entirely empty.

F9 has had good success here. They started with two flights per day back in late 03/early 04 and now have 8(?) per day including non-stops to LAX.



DMI
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
The Future Of STL...cloudy? posted Mon Jun 7 2004 20:16:05 by Thrust
Future Of The 747-8 And 747-7? posted Thu Nov 23 2006 18:53:58 by CX747
ADS-B The Future Of Radar? posted Mon Nov 20 2006 19:58:42 by Mpdpilot
The Future Of Alliances (post Merger Frenzy) posted Fri Nov 17 2006 12:09:40 by B777A340Fan
Regional Airlines RFPs And The Future Of Them posted Wed Nov 15 2006 07:39:34 by Apodino
Future Of Air Madrid posted Tue Oct 31 2006 03:19:49 by TACAA320
Future Of CFM And IAE posted Sat Oct 28 2006 21:03:02 by 1337Delta764
Future Of B6 At PIT posted Thu Oct 19 2006 05:19:23 by Steeler83
Future Of NW Flying For DHL? posted Wed Oct 18 2006 08:02:58 by BlueFlyer
The Future Of CWL-BRU? posted Thu Oct 12 2006 01:31:41 by Cwldude