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United Airlines Caravelle's In The 60's  
User currently offlineLat41 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 471 posts, RR: 0
Posted (10 years 1 month 1 week 4 days ago) and read 10057 times:

Does anyone have information on the SUD aviation Caravelles that were in the United fleet in the 60s? What was their time frame in the fleet? How many did they have? I beleive I saw one as a kid on approach to Providence in the pre 737 days. I wonder what destinations did they served. They must have replaced DC-6s at some point.

33 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (10 years 1 month 1 week 4 days ago) and read 10023 times:

I know that the last flight of the day ORD-LGA and LGA-ORD was a "Businessman's Special" on special Caravelles - male passengers only, and what we would call business class seats today.

Imagine telling a female CEO she can't get on the plane as a passenger, but she's welcome to help sling drinks and food to the male passengers. You've come a long way, baby!!

That's all the information I have...I know they didn't last long in the fleet with the 737's entering service.



Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
User currently offlineDesertJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7780 posts, RR: 16
Reply 2, posted (10 years 1 month 1 week 4 days ago) and read 10002 times:

Off the top of my head I am thinking the number was about 20, and they were retired by 1973 or thereabouts.

Reg #s were from N1001U to N1020U... so twenty frames exactly. Entry into service from May 1961 to February 1962. Retired from service from May 1970 to March 1973.

http://www.geocities.com/~aeromoe/fleets/airlines.html

The Caravelles and 720s were both completely retired in the early 70s after large numbers of 727-100s, -200s, and 737-200s came online.

[Edited 2004-08-10 19:08:45]


Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
User currently offlineTimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6835 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (10 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 9901 times:

The men-only flights left around 5 PM, not the last flight of the day. They were DC-6s out of LGA; when the Caravelle took over it flew out of Newark.

User currently offlineIsitsafenow From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 23
Reply 4, posted (10 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 9852 times:

DESERTJETS has it correct. UA had 20 of the "screamin Banshees". The Caravelle Model VI was a very loud plane on taxi and T/O. I loved every minute of it, too.
Two and two seating and the windows were tear drop shaped...very odd.
The Model VI had slightly larger cockpit windows then the early Caravelle models.
United instructed SUD to install them for better visibility.
A little know fact was that in 1960 or 61 TWA ordered the Caravelle but had to Xcle because of poor funds at that time. Mr. Hughes had something to do with that because he held TWA's pursestrings and the Convair 880's that TW had also ordered. Remember that TW credit was bad so the Convair 880 were accually ordered by Hughes Tool Corp, a major stockholder in TWA.

TWA ended up getting the Convairs because HH was convinced by the board that TW needed the smaller jet to survive. AA and UA didn't have a plane like that, except for UA's 20 Caravelles. Don't write back and tell me about the 727-100. That came a couple of years later, ok?
Onward and Upward, everyone....

safe



If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
User currently offlineTimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6835 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (10 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 9833 times:

Oh yeah, what destinations. Last time this came up, didn't we say they got as far west as Omaha? Never farther?

User currently offlineMarcjet66 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 118 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (10 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 9828 times:

They were wonderful. I wish I could have flown on one of those beauties.


Marcos
User currently offlineStirling From Italy, joined Jun 2004, 3943 posts, RR: 21
Reply 7, posted (10 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 9808 times:

Timz-

I asked a UA oldtimer that same question a few years ago. Omaha is a fair guess as to how far west they traveled. Same guy told me that they spent most of their time based out of ORD, PIT and CLE, flying most of the higher-density Capital routes previously flown with the Viscount. First flight was IDW-ORD 14Jul61.
United's models had the optional thrust reverser, hence the "R" in Caravelle VI-R

Anyone know the story of F-WJAP? This was the VIR prototype, painted in United colors, but am I to understand correctly it never enter revenue service for UA, instead winding up at Cruzeiro Do Sul in Brasil. (?)

United Caravelles lacked the long thin dorsal fin extending forward along the upper fuselage, and which was common to most Caravelles.



Delete this User
User currently offlineIsitsafenow From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 23
Reply 8, posted (10 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 9799 times:

MSP and OMA was the most westerly cities. The reason was the maintenance base for the SUD' S which was in the east but I forgot where(grayhair has its drawbacks). They were not long distance planes. ORD to NYC was the longest route I believe it had not peeking into my timetables from the early and mid 60's.
safe



If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
User currently offlineWhitehatter From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (10 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 9796 times:

The Caravelle was originally intended to be a joint project with Douglas managing the US side of things, and a production facility established in the US.

They instead opted for a design of their own which became the DC-9.

Lovely aircraft though. Some of the Caravelle was directly lifted from the Comet, but it had a unique look and feel to it. That's probably why there are a number in preservation by enthusiasts rather than just museums.


User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16259 posts, RR: 56
Reply 10, posted (10 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 9793 times:

Saw it very rarely on ORD-YYZ probably subbing for a 721/732. Don't believe it was ever scheduled into YYZ.




Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineIsitsafenow From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 23
Reply 11, posted (10 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 9778 times:

STIRLING...I show that F-WJAP was built in Aug of 59 and went to Varig as PP-VJC in Sept of same year. It was a series Three aircraft. UA were 6R's as you stated.
F WJAP went on to Air France, Air Vietnam, back to Air France, to MEA, back to Air France(who was leasing this plane out) to Royal Air Maroc, Central African Govt, Air Centrafrique and finally scrapped in Feb of 83 in France.



If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
User currently offlineRongotai From New Zealand, joined Sep 2000, 477 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (10 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 9764 times:

The UA Caravelles were delivered via PWK. I was completing my CPL written exams at PWK in September 1961 when N1007U came through. They did a short marketing flight for local travel agents and I got invited along. It was my only flight on a Caravelle and my first on a UA liveried aircraft. In fact it was my first sight of a UA aircraft.

User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5438 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (10 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 9667 times:

I actually flew UAL's Caravelles and I didn't much like them. That was UAL's fault, not the airplane's. UAL tricked them out in some version of "first class" that was much inferior in terms of comfort, space, and service to what was offered on 720's and DC8's, but they still charged top dollar first class prices. All you could say was they were a lot better than DC-6B's.

In their favor, they had terrific takeoff acceleration, much more exciting than today's planes.

As I recall UAL used them on their high frequency routes among BOS, EWR, LGA, PHL, CLE, PIT, DTW, ORD, ATL, MSY, MKE, MSP, OMA. UAL tried them on Florida routes from CLE and PIT; but they flopped when they went up against EAL's 720's and DC-8's with coach fares.

UAL's gouging me for CVL first class fares on some monopoly routes has made me avoid UAL ever since.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineOrdpark From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 574 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (10 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 9664 times:
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When I was a kid, I had the good fortune to live next door to a United Caravelle f/o - later Captain. He indulged my fascination with airplanes by taking me to EWR with him and virtually having the run of UA ops while he was on one day trips. (No security concerns to speak of back in the '60s!)

EWR was a BIG Caravelle station...service to PIT, CLE, ORD, DTW plus some routes you would never dream of today....EWR-TOL-ORD, EWR-FWA-SBN-ORD,
EWR-HSV-BHM. There were others, but they escape me at the moment...

In her last years, the Caravelles flew a lot of sports charters - teams loved them because of the all First class cabins. I remember once at BOS while I was attending college around 1971 or so, seeing two of them side by side operating chtrs for the Boston Bruins and St. Louis Blues during the Stanley Cup Playoffs....

They were great little airplanes...noisy as all get out, but to airplane buffs, of course, that's music to ones ears! Like all aircraft, eventually a better, quieter more fuel efficient replacement comes along, but in her day, she was a beauty!


User currently offlineMilesrich From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2000 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (10 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 9659 times:

United never operated the Caravelle in scheduled service in or out of LGA, although they did go there on charters. The Caravelle was introduced on July, 1961, the Capital-United merger initial schedule, and operated from IDL to ORD, initially. All NY flights with the Caravelle were soon shifted to EWR. Jet service at LGA began on June 1, 1964, with the 727. The Caravelles were retired and stored at DEN in 1971-72. Seven were sold off individually, and the last 13 went to Sterling. They operated the Executive from ORD to JFK then EWR from the initial schedule until their retirement. With the end of the Caravelle, so ended the Men Only Executive.

The VIR in UA service sat 64 in 16 rows of 2-2 seating. During its service, the CVL with United served, IDL(JFK), ORD, YIP, CLE, PIT, PHL, EWR, MIA, TPA, PBI, JAX, MSY, MOB, BHM, ATL, HSV, MEM, CHA, TYS, FWA, SBN, DSM, OMA, MSP, MKE, DTW, BOS, PVD, BDL, DCA, BAL, TOL, and IAD.


User currently offlineHnl-Jack From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 819 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (10 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 9629 times:

Unfortunately, I am old enough that I got to fly those magnificent airplanes many, many times. The best flight was ORD/SFO when the airplanes were sent for service checks. They generally would send out the Caravelle as a second section of another flight. With a light load the airplane could make it non-stop, but most often would make a fuel stop in Denver. It also seems to me that for a period of time there may have been a MKE - DEN flight. If not, OMA was the farthest west as mentioned in another post.

The flights between EWR and ORD were called "The Executive." Men only flights that served huge steaks, magnificent martinis, offered cigars and had a Playboy Magazine in every seat back.



Grew up in the business and continued the family tradition.
User currently offlineRareBear From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 553 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (10 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 9526 times:

Flew on a United Caravelle in 1967 from ATL-PIT-ATL. I had flown virtually all coach seating up to that time, so the first class seats were a treat.


Illegitimus non carborundum
User currently offlineIsitsafenow From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 23
Reply 18, posted (10 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 9485 times:

MILESRICH.....You remembered Willow Run..kudos to you!
I did my Caravelle mileage with the youth fares or Z class. YIP-ORD for 6 bucks and
YIP-EWR for around twelve. I kept the receipt coupons. Z fare was fun but
space available, of course.
safe



If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
User currently offlineStirling From Italy, joined Jun 2004, 3943 posts, RR: 21
Reply 19, posted (10 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 9437 times:

isitsafenow-

So why was F-WJAP painted up in UA colours?
Was she a demo?
See it's the dates that confuse me.
So she rolled off the line in 59, while the actual first UA flight wasn't until 61. She was painted in UA colours 2 years before UA actually got one? Interesting.
Was the VI-(R) even planned as of 59?
The pictures I have of F-WJAP are air-to-air shots, so I don't know if she even ever made it to the states?....I can imagine that in those days, a French, or European aircraft for that matter would be a big deal if it was ordered by a U.S. airline. Nothing like today.
So I suppose the answer to my own question, it had to be a Public Relations thing.(?)
One last thing. In 59, was Cruzeiro a part of Varig?
Thanks for helping me connect the dots!



Delete this User
User currently offlineTan Flyr From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 1908 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (10 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 9386 times:

Back in the 70's in FWA I worked as a PT travel agent while going to school. The lady that owned the agency loved to tell stories about the Caravelles from FWA- EWR...dinner on china..the whole bit. If My memory serves me correct an early morning flight from ORD-FWA-EWR was offered and a return early evening (hence the dinner service) was what she mentioned.

Would not surprise me that the schedule would have included a stop at SBN. UA offered a ORD-SBN-FWA late night flight until 1979 or 80 (departed ORD at 10:51PM as I recall from when I was on it a few times) and this operated with a 722.

Funny thing..as I recall (doing a lot of that here arn't we!!) that flight deadheaded back to ORD with the mail about 2 AM. Would hear it on climb out when it used rwy 31 on cold winter nites.


User currently offlineAccess-Air From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1939 posts, RR: 12
Reply 21, posted (10 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 9283 times:

I have a slide of an United Caravellle taxiing out for take off shot in January 1968, N1017U at Cedar Rapids, Iowa (CID).
I have no idea if it was a scheduled run or an aircraft sub but its neat none the less..

Access-Air



Remember, Wherever you go, there you are!!!!
User currently offlineTimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6835 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (10 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 9192 times:

As for how far west they got, I finally looked at the Airport Activity Statistics.

In 1962, Denver had a total of 7 Caravelle departures-- and 1 UA CV340 and 1 UA Viscount.

1963: 46 Caravelles, 1 UA Viscount, no UA CV340s.
1964: 47 Caravelles, 0 Visc, 0 CV340
1965: 64 Caravelle, 0 Visc/CV340
1966: 74 Caravelle, 0 Visc/CV340
1967: 139 Caravelle, 0 Visc/CV340
1968: 42 Caravelle

So I guess we'll check the 1967 timetable for scheduled flights to DEN.


User currently offlineIsitsafenow From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 23
Reply 23, posted (10 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 9145 times:

Sorry TIMZ, but I cannot back you up. IM not saying you are wrong but I cant help you. I checked two 1966 and two 1967 UAL timetables and a JUNE 1967 OAG and find no Caravelles by UA into or out of Denver. I found all other flights and cities listed on this thread but no Stapleton Caravelles.
safe



If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
User currently offlineLoneStarMike From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 3826 posts, RR: 33
Reply 24, posted (10 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 9111 times:

Speaking of The Businessman's Special, here's a couple of ads from the 1950's when they were operated with the DC-6.




LoneStarMike


25 Milesrich : United kept a Caravelle at Denver for training from time to time. But there were never any scheduled flights with them there. I have UA schedules for
26 Post contains links and images Fanofjets : Three of these birds survive in the US: New England Air and Space Museum View Large View MediumPhoto © Yevgeny Pashnin Port Columbus, OH: View La
27 Post contains links and images DIA : To add to Fanofjets list of U.S. Caravele survivors: View Large View MediumPhoto © Steve D Hall View Large View MediumPhoto © James Richard
28 Timz : "...F-WJAP was built in Aug of 59 and went to Varig as PP-VJC in Sept of same year. It was a series Three aircraft." It seems there were two different
29 Post contains links and images DIA : This is a UA Caravelle that had an incident at ATL. Interesting little gem of history here. Look at the doors on the Caravelle, I've never seen them "
30 Isitsafenow : TIMZ...After peeking in the "build book" I noticed there were two F-WAL one a model three and the other a 6N. I cannot find a UA plane with the F regi
31 Type-rated : I remember back in 1973 or so UA had a Caravelle sitting on the ramp across from the Frontier hangar. Since I was there for training at TK, I was give
32 Post contains links and images Flyssc : United Airlines choose the day of July 14th 1961 to put in service its first Sud-Aviation Caravelle on the line New-York ---> Chicago. The a/c, N1000U
33 M404 : Even though I've flown many in Europe and one in S. America I never got to use one of UAs beauties. I just loved the take off with those huge long win
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