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Will QF/CX Ever Learn To Work Together?  
User currently offlineCXoneWorld From Australia, joined Aug 2004, 315 posts, RR: 0
Posted (10 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3854 times:

This is not a debate question!! But I do think that a lot of people share the impression with me that QF/CX seems to be one of the WEAKEST links within the oneworld alliance!! Apart from the FCO codeshare, and the very restricted reciprocal FFP regime, cooperation between the two airlines is almost non-existent, in my fair opinion.

Why is such happening? Given the relative proximity of the two airline's respective hubs (SYD and HKG), and the masive volume of traffic, both business and leisure, flying in-between, I would imagine there are heaps of codeshare/joint marketing or other cooperation opportunities between the two (such as CX codesharing on QF's SYD-OOL/CBR and QF codesharing on CX's HKG-TPE/KUL etc). Yes, I am aware that QF and CX are fierce competitors on the HKG-AUSTRALIA runs, but then isn't it the same situation that BA and CX face on HKG-LHR as well? At least relationship between BA and CX appear to be much more rosier to me with the great number of codeshare agreements in place between the two.

So why isn't this happening with QF and CX? I reckon their common foes are something like Singapore, Thai and no doubt Emirates, but not really each other....

 Smile


oneworld alliance revolves around you
25 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17039 posts, RR: 66
Reply 1, posted (10 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3790 times:

Given the relative proximity of the two airline's respective hubs (SYD and HKG),

I don't know about the rest of it, but those hubs are in no way close to each other. It's a 9 hour flight, further than Western Europe to New York.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineGemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5659 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (10 years 1 month 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 3705 times:

He said "relative" proximity! Out here 9hrs flying time is "relatively" close!

Gemuser




DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlineJupiter2 From Australia, joined Jan 2001, 899 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (10 years 1 month 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 3688 times:

Historical competitors, fierce if not down right dirty at times !! There has been a lot of bad blood in the past between the two in particular when QF operated their HKG/BKK and HKG/SIN flights, the HKG/BKK segments convienently connected with the European services.
What are they going to be like when QF start direct HKG/LHR flights !!!
RL


User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17039 posts, RR: 66
Reply 4, posted (10 years 1 month 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 3666 times:

I know he said relative, but that's still pretty far...


"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineBill142 From Australia, joined Aug 2004, 8451 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (10 years 1 month 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 3651 times:

QF and CX are the only ones who fly the route and there is probably no need to co-operate appart from what that have to do for oneworld. Beyond HKG and SYD (and other AU ports) is a different story. Virgin might give them a bit of a shake up as they will most likey codeshare with Virgin Blue in Australia. Both may look at co-operating more, but I don't see it happening, but as usual it will be Big Dick who makes the competition look at what there doing.

User currently offlineGemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5659 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (10 years 1 month 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 3636 times:

"I know he said relative, but that's still pretty far... "

Not really, what's in between? MNL & BNE and lots & lots & lots of sweet f**k all and thats about it!

It's all a matter of attitude. Most Ozzies would consider HKG "relatively" close. NZ, New Cal & Fiji at 3-4 hours are all "close" and closer than PER or DRW!
This attitude differance shows up all the time, one example: during the last round of French necular test in the Pacific I heard one Frog govertment spokesman say words to the effect that "the testing was a long way from Oz", big mistake of course, most Ozzies regard PPT as next door!

Gemuser




DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlineCXoneWorld From Australia, joined Aug 2004, 315 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (10 years 1 month 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 3483 times:

OK, let's put it this way, 9hour by no means sounds like a trip to a "nearby" destination, but the fact that Asia is the closest continent to Australasia makes SYD and HKG not so far away in a relative standing...

After all, I strongly believe that HKG and SYD is a very "workable" city pair for codeshare, etc.



oneworld alliance revolves around you
User currently offlineChinaeastern From China, joined Apr 2004, 348 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (10 years 1 month 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 3459 times:

i would say SYD and HKG are pretty close.
QF probably need a better partner than CX in asia. i mean that look at the network of CX, they really need someone else to provide services within asia themselves.


User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (10 years 1 month 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 3445 times:

I would say CX are one of the weaker links in the Oneworld chain - although HKG is a huge Asian hub, for some reason the main Oneworld Asian connecting point is Singapore (home of a Star rival). CX do relatively few codeshares with other OW partners, have a pretty restrictive FFP earn 'n burn agreement with other OW partners, and generally are not pulling their weight. I know that system incompatibilities have made codeshare as well as frequent flyer recognition, redemption and upgrade processing a real pain.

User currently offlineTrolley Dolley From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (10 years 1 month 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 3380 times:

Apart from historic bad blood between CX and QF, maybe it's because of the relationship between BA and QF? The Joint Services Agreement on the Australia/UK/Europe routes is designed to consolidate flights. If QF was seen to be getting to close to CX, it might put renewal of the JSA in jeopardy.

Regards the FFP agreements, I don't think it is a case of CX not pulling its weight and putting restrictions on earning'n'burning. It's the carrier you are flying on that dictates terms for earning miles, not the carrier who is hosting the FFP. Recently there have been huge cut backs on earning points on BA, AA and EI in the QF FFP, and I see CX's programme has been adjusted for the worse as well.

Australia to HKG has multiple flights from 5 cities in Australia. LON to HKG only has flights between those two cities. The Australian operation is much larger portion of revenues and operations for CX and QF than the comparative flights for CX and BA between LON and HKG.

Personally I think CX is the star of oneworld as I've found their service to be consistently superior to the others in the group. I base this claim on the miles & flights I've done to keep me at gold QFF level for the past 5 years. A QF insider confided that they are afraid of CX's service levels and really don't want their passengers on the green tails as it makes the red tails look below par.


User currently offlineCXoneworld From Australia, joined Aug 2004, 315 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (10 years 1 month 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3222 times:

although HKG is a huge Asian hub, for some reason the main Oneworld Asian connecting point is Singapore (home of a Star rival). CX do relatively few codeshares with other OW partners, have a pretty restrictive FFP earn 'n burn agreement with other OW partners, and generally are not pulling their weight.

HKG is a big oneworld city! The alliance had even issued a press statement before to celebrate its strong Hong Kong presence!!  Smile

I am aware that CX has not been very active in OW in the past, but this is changing... At the moment, it already has some pretty comprehensive codeshares with AA, BA, IB and the would-be-OW-candidate JL.

So it just gets me thinking why not QF? (other than the single and only FCO agreement)



oneworld alliance revolves around you
User currently offlineCx123 From Australia, joined May 2004, 695 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (10 years 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 3053 times:

" would say CX are one of the weaker links in the Oneworld chain - although HKG is a huge Asian hub, for some reason the main Oneworld Asian connecting point is Singapore (home of a Star rival). CX do relatively few codeshares with other OW partners, have a pretty restrictive FFP earn 'n burn agreement with other OW partners, and generally are not pulling their weight. I know that system incompatibilities have made codeshare as well as frequent flyer recognition, redemption and upgrade processing a real pain"


How is CX the weakest link? Without CX I dare say Oneworld will be in the shi7s! However without IB orAY Oneworld can still operate.

Also why should CX and QF cooperate more and bring down the whole standard of CX?

There is a difference between service and product offering between the 2.

CX FFP is not TOO bad also it is QF that is being restrictive! (eg. no upgrade using points on other airlines!)


User currently offlineCXCPA From Hong Kong, joined May 2000, 387 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (10 years 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 3026 times:

History is not the problem. In business, money is the most important. If CX can make money from QF and vice versa, they will co-operate. For example, if CX can make more money with Star Alliance partner, I am sure that CX withdraw Oneworld immediately and join Star Alliance.
So the only and reasonable explanation is money.


User currently offlineVictor From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2001, 90 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (10 years 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 3020 times:

cx 123 said "Also why should CX and QF cooperate more and bring down the whole standard of CX? "

i am sure qantas is damn fine . what's wrong with qf ?


User currently offlineQantasflyer From Australia, joined Mar 2004, 396 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (10 years 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 2992 times:

Victor with out being biased i would like to say that Qantas is great! both airlines are world class honestly!

Regards Qantasflyer



Qantasflyer That's the spirit. The Spirit of Australia!
User currently offlineBlink182 From Azerbaijan, joined Oct 1999, 5482 posts, RR: 15
Reply 16, posted (10 years 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2948 times:

Here's an idea- why doesn't QF pull up its service standards on it's Australia-Asia-Europe routes and attempt to make theirs identical with CX. The two airlines could even attempt to time their own flights at different times to offer a wider choice to the traveler. When two airlines operate a route and codeshare with each other, they tend to time each other's flights so that they leave at different times in order to offer a wider choice and to avoid competition.

I am sure it is much more complicated than this, but its a start.

blink



Give me a break, I created this username when I was a kid...
User currently offlineTBCITDG From Australia, joined Jan 2004, 921 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (10 years 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 2872 times:

There is noooo way that anyone can compare the service standards on CX. By far (and constantly) their service levels have far exceeded that of QF. It is only now that QF have finally started to invest in upgrading their product, that it will bridge the gap a little closer.
CX standards are not only high on board, but also on the ground.


User currently offlineCathay250 From Hong Kong, joined Aug 1999, 221 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (10 years 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 2857 times:

Blink,

I think it's a bit limited choice for co-operating by timing each other's flight time. Take HKG-AUSSIE route as an example, the golden time for these route will be departing at night and arriving in the morning, any flight that departing before the night time in HK would result in either arriving in the Mid-night in Melbourne and not even possible in Sydney. And there is no point to spend a day time on plane while u can actually sleep over on the plane and get a full day after arrival


User currently offlineCXoneWorld From Australia, joined Aug 2004, 315 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (10 years 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 2766 times:

Does the matter have anything to do with "perceived" or "actual" quality gap between CX and QF?

I don't necessarily think so.

QF is a decent airline and it has been catching up massively with the latest product upgrade. After all, if CX regards services on AA as good enough for it to do codeshare with, I can't see why not QF...

Could somebody pls enlighten me on the issue, please!!  Smile

[Edited 2004-08-22 16:10:47]


oneworld alliance revolves around you
User currently offlineMEA-707 From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4328 posts, RR: 35
Reply 20, posted (10 years 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 2749 times:

Come on, CX's Y-service is nothing special, actually the seat arrangement is more cramped than on any other long haul airline I have flown and the meal portians are quite small. The IFE is ok but nothing extraordinary. I think all in all absolutely on par with QF.


nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
User currently offlineMarara From Australia, joined Oct 2001, 678 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (10 years 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2678 times:

Im pretty sure there is another reason for the lack of co-operation. Govt Approval, QF and CX were the dominant carriers on the route while AN was around, and now with AN gone i cant see the ACCC allowing any co-operation (look an QF/NZ and there are a heap of other airlines operating).

QF and CX have been working together in the background, apparently CX assisted QF with the intoduction of the 330. But you can still see the hint of bad blood between the two, im sure cathay isnt please about QF being allowed on the HKG-LHR run while being locked out of the SYD-LAX market.



I like work: it fascinates me. I can sit and look at it for hours. Jerome K Jerome
User currently offlinePA110 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2006 posts, RR: 23
Reply 22, posted (10 years 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2583 times:
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The QF/CX relationship is pretty much indicative of the entire OneWorld alliance. Unlike Star which has put a huge amount of effort in commonality and reciprocity amongst member carriers, the same cannot be said of OneWorld. The OneWorld alliance is dysfunctional at best, especially when it comes to frequent flyer issues.

Carriers of the Star Alliance (with very few exceptions) all earn equal miles on all carriers. If you are already a member of your home airline's plan, there is no need (or advantage) to joining a partner member's plan as well. Not so within OneWorld. U.S. passengers who are members of AA's AAdvantage plan do not get miles flying BA transatlantic, and only get 25% of the flown miles beyond London on BA (when flying any discounted Economy Class fare).

Compare the following:
AA AAdvantage member flying BA SFO-LON-JNB: will receive 1410 miles.
UA MileagePlus member flying LH SFO-FRA-JNB: will receive 11085 miles.



It's been swell, but the swelling has gone down.
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17039 posts, RR: 66
Reply 23, posted (10 years 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2570 times:

U.S. passengers who are members of AA's AAdvantage plan do not get miles flying BA transatlantic,

You are correct about the rest of it, but IIRC this particular one is due to Bermuda II or some such weird agreement.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineKL808 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1584 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (10 years 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 2554 times:

PA110 I beg to differ.

if you fly AA to LHR you get 5500 miles give or take then if you take BA to JNB you get 25% of the miles if booked on a discounted ticket unless you fly full fare. so you get more than the 1410 miles.

Note because of goverment intervention you may not earn AAdvantage miles on transatlantic flights.

Now if your a smart traveler you want to avoid BA at all cost if you love to purchase cheap tickets but wanna get full miles, therefore you fly on AA to ZUR and Take LY to JNB.

you get full miles on LY no matter what class you book on.

drew



AMS-LAX-MNL
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8269 posts, RR: 8
Reply 25, posted (10 years 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2473 times:

I've done a lot of flying on QF and it is slowly improving. I have never had a problem with FAs or ground staff, but the mid management is horrid - probably a bunch of left overs from the years of government ownership. A short time ago their domestic food was pure slop, but that has improved significantly. Their 737s had transvestite seats in business (coach seats that liked to dress up as business seats) but there is some hope.

Comparing QF to CX is difficult in some ways. CX is a better airline for the average passenger and takes very good care of oneworld pax - they send me to the First Class lounge even when I'm flying cattle car. Their planes have for years looked fresher on the inside and their FAs are always nice. Most QF FAs are equally nice when you take the time to talk to them, but there have been a few with PMS or SRH (sperm retention headache).


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