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Qantas Proposal For B777 Is Still "Up In The Air"  
User currently offlineKalakaua From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 1516 posts, RR: 5
Posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 15077 times:

"Old" news around A.net, but media thinks otherwise...

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,10424778%255E23349,00.html

Excerpt:

Qantas is considered a prime candidate for the new 777 after Air New Zealand confirmed its order for up to 52 777s and the smaller 7E7s this week.

The Australian airline is evaluating its long-range options to complement its 555-seat A380 to be delivered in the second half of 2006.

These include the 320-seat A340-500/600, more 747-400ERs, second-hand 747-400s and the 365-seat 777-300ER and 300-seat 777-200LR.

But analysts suggest that for Boeing to win a 777 order from Qantas, the Seattle manufacturer would have to take Qantas's A330s as a trade-in.




Gravity explains the motions of the planets, but it cannot explain who set the planets in motion.
88 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBrons2 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3015 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 14780 times:

Taking A330 as a tradein to be leased to 7E7 customers who want a plane NOW might be a good idea.

What is QF's A332/A333 mix?



Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
User currently offlineSafetyDude From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3795 posts, RR: 15
Reply 2, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 14754 times:

BOEING promises that its 777-200LR will fly the 17,000km from London to Sydney in just over 19 hours - but it's not clear whether Qantas will buy.

Boeing says the latest version of the 777 will commence flying next year, with capacity for 300 passengers and cargo on a non-stop trip to Sydney.

Qantas is considered a prime candidate for the new 777 after Air New Zealand confirmed its order for up to 52 777s and the smaller 7E7s this week.


It seems that the media has confused itself by accident. ANZ has ordered the 773ER, not the 772LR. The planes have quite different market targets which would not explain why QF might be considered a candidate after ANZ placed their order, unless the media thinks that since New Zealand and Australia are so similar that they will order the same planes (even though that have historically). Sorry everyone: I am experiencing media aggravation.  Insane

-Will



"She Flew For What We Stand For"
User currently offlineSafetyDude From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3795 posts, RR: 15
Reply 3, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 14750 times:

Taking A330 as a tradein to be leased to 7E7 customers who want a plane NOW might be a good idea.
QF would most likely turn the planes in as they get 777s.

 Smile
-Will



"She Flew For What We Stand For"
User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 14707 times:

ANZ has ordered the 773ER

...funny, ANZ doesn't seem to know about that  Big grin


User currently offlineRT514 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 14708 times:

But analysts suggest that for Boeing to win a 777 order from Qantas, the Seattle manufacturer would have to take Qantas's A330s as a trade-in.

In my opinion, Satan will be digging out of hell's biggest snowstorm before Boeing buys more Airbus aircraft. Besides, it would be so much nicer (and more dignified) to see the B777 make sales based on its many merits, rather than based on the promise of a trade-in deal.


User currently offlineWhitehatter From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 14701 times:

The 777s would be rubbish in the LHR-SYD role. QF needs CAPACITY on that route, the 777 would be a drop.

The Transpacifics are where it would fit in, offering service to east coast cities in the US.

Again the old Boeing trade-in story surfaces...when will people realise that Boeing isn't a second hand car dealer gone upmarket? They only take trades which are worthwhile, not billions of dollars worth of aircraft for no sensible reason. The SQ deal was a special case. Not for the first time the 'analysts' are talking out of their arses.


User currently offlineJeffDCA From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 14685 times:

Personally my money's on them getting the A340, simply because they're pleased with their A330's, and they're getting A380's. It makes sense to stick with Airbus, at least on the long haul fleet.

Cheers,

Jeff


User currently offlineBrons2 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3015 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 14682 times:

ANZ has ordered the 773ER

ANZ has OPTIONED the 773ER. I believe the number is 16, but don't quote me on that.



Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
User currently offlineBCAInfoSys From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 14668 times:

WRONG Brons, sorry to burst your bubble.

According to us (Boeing), we only recognize 4 firm 772ER orders, and 4 772ER LOI's. We don't currently recognize ANY options from NZ.

Steve


User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 14667 times:

This article is apparently speculating on a time scale far from the near-term.

It speaks of replacing 747s with 773ERs and A380s... something QF isnt interested in doing for a looooooooong time.


User currently offlineBrons2 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3015 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 14660 times:

BCAInfoSys, are you speaking OFFICIALLY for Boeing?

I am about to contact the Media Relations department via email, so we'll see what they have to say about it. The avaiation press has reported differently than what you say. No offense intended but I am going to get a 2nd opinion on that.



Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
User currently offlineBCAInfoSys From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 14633 times:

Obviously, I don't speak officially for Boeing. But I just checked one of our official databases that lists current aircraft, as well as aircraft that are on order/optioned, etc... and the only entries for NZ are the 8 772ERs I mentioned earlier.

So essentially, I don't speak as an official spokesman for the company. But unless our database is lying to us, then we're not recognizing any options right now.

P.S. I just realized that I may have come across a little harsh, that wasn't my intent. I just wanted to let you know, that to the best of my knowledge, there are no options.  Smile

[Edited 2004-08-12 20:01:58]

User currently offlineGreg From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 14552 times:

Boeing has been in the used aircraft market for close to 40+ years....they would gladly accept the Airbus A330's.

It's quite common for them to take trades to complete a deal---all part of the game.

Did they get burned with the SQ340's? Not if you consider the outcome.
Would they do it again? For a 77 airframe sale....you better believe it!


User currently offlineSafetyDude From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3795 posts, RR: 15
Reply 14, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 14449 times:

ANZ has ordered the 773ER

...funny, ANZ doesn't seem to know about that

You are correct, my mistake. (You certainly know your Boeing orders.  Big grin)

ANZ has placed an option for 17 777-300ERs.

According to us (Boeing), we only recognize 4 firm 772ER orders, and 4 772ER LOI's. We don't currently recognize ANY options from NZ.
ANZ has (tentatively) approved the options, including the 773ER options.

The 777s would be rubbish in the LHR-SYD role. QF needs CAPACITY on that route, the 777 would be a drop.
The opening line of that news article is just to get your attention. The plane is capable of flying that route, although the article is quick to point out the routes for the 777s: "If Qantas went ahead with the 777 option - both the 300ER and 200LR - the aircraft would complement the A380 and replace the airline's 747 fleet on routes where the A380 was too big."
Basically, do not expect to see 777s on LHR-SYD, but LHR to smaller Australian cities is a possibility - as well as Australia to a number of other destinations besides LHR.

 Smile
-Will



"She Flew For What We Stand For"
User currently offlineBCAInfoSys From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 14421 times:

Well then Brons, you have your answer, courtesy of SafetyDude. NZ has only recently tenatively approved the options, and so once they are official, then we'll update our system.

Thanks Will for setting the matter straight.


User currently offlineRayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 8018 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 14389 times:

If QF is looking for more long-range aircraft one model that could be seriously considered is the Airbus A340-600HGW.

You not only have commonality with the A330-200/300 fleet, but the A346HGW has enough range to fly between MEL and LAX year round (thanks to the A346HGW's 8,000 nautical mile still-air range).


User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 17, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 14365 times:

ANZ has ordered the 773ER, not the 772LR.

They've ordered neither plane.

QF would most likely turn the planes in as they get 777s.

"Turn them in" to whom?

People don't buy new planes and exercise new options just to turn them or sell them on a whim. Just because SQ did it once doesn't make it wise for everyone to do it.

QF doesn't need the 777 on the routes they're flying the 333 on. If they did, they'd have bought them.

At this point, its wishful thinking that Qantas will get the 777. They just don't need it for anything at this point.

N


User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 14349 times:

Also worth mentioning... the 772LR still has one more considerable performance boost on the way, if you'll take into account that Boeing intends to certify it with uprates of the GE90 sooner or later.

User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 19, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 14308 times:

While that may improve its relative performance to the current edges of its range, I doubt that will increase its capacity to carry fuel.

N


User currently offlineB2707SST From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 1369 posts, RR: 59
Reply 20, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 14277 times:

ANZ has placed an option for 17 777-300ERs.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm not sure that ANZ's 42 options have been subdivided by type -- that is, one option can be used to purchase any member of the 7E7 or 777 families. I can certainly see them going for the 773ER in a few years, but I don't think they've committed to it yet even at the option level.

http://www.airnewzealand.com/aboutus/mediacentre/pressreleases/airnz_announces_long_haul_fleet.htm

Mr Norris says Air New Zealand's decision to secure rights to purchase a further 42 aircraft reflects the airline's belief in the potential to expand its passenger and cargo business into new long haul destinations and increase traffic from existing core routes.

"The purchase rights will give us the ability to choose from a range of aircraft types that best suit our long haul business as it develops in the future. The aircraft options will include the Boeing 777-200 ER, 777-200 LR, 7E7 and the 777-300 ER, which could replace our Boeing 747s in about a decade," he says.

--B2707SST



Keynes is dead and we are living in his long run.
User currently offlineSafetyDude From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3795 posts, RR: 15
Reply 21, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 14242 times:

Thanks Will for setting the matter straight.
Oh no problem, but I am sorry for starting the issue in the first place!

If QF is looking for more long-range aircraft one model that could be seriously considered is the Airbus A340-600HGW.
and, QF doesn't need the 777 on the routes they're flying the 333 on. If they did, they'd have bought them
I have mentioned in other topics that a few people from QF have said how the 330 order was a "mistake" and that 764s and 777s should have been bought instead and they were trying to "fix" the issue. Those words not mine, so please do not yell at me.

ANZ has ordered the 773ER, not the 772LR.

They've ordered neither plane.

Thank you for reading replies 1-14 discussing that issue.  Big grin

QF would most likely turn the planes in as they get 777s.

"Turn them in" to whom?

They would turn them into Boeing.

People don't buy new planes and exercise new options just to turn them or sell them on a whim. Just because SQ did it once doesn't make it wise for everyone to do it.
From the article: "But analysts suggest that for Boeing to win a 777 order from Qantas, the Seattle manufacturer would have to take Qantas's A330s as a trade-in."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm not sure that ANZ's 42 options have been subdivided by type
It was kind of quiet news: http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1686941.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

-Will



"She Flew For What We Stand For"
User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16307 posts, RR: 56
Reply 22, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 14118 times:

But analysts suggest that for Boeing to win a 777 order from Qantas, the Seattle manufacturer would have to take Qantas's A330s as a trade-in.

If Boeing is serious about regaining QF's longhaul business, a comprehensive offer of the 7E7, 773ER, 772LR with a buy back of the 332/333 fleet will likely be a requirement.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineB2707SST From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 1369 posts, RR: 59
Reply 23, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 14067 times:

It was kind of quiet news: http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1686941

Thanks for the link, but there's still a problem. If the ATWonline report is accurate (42 options = 17 773ER, 9 772ER, 16 7E7), the statement from ANZ's press release that I quoted above must be incorrect, as the ATW breakdown doesn't include any 772LR options.

I'm not saying the ATW story is wrong, but I wouldn't place too much weight on it until ANZ and/or Boeing confirm the options breakdown.

--B2707SST

[Edited 2004-08-12 23:45:10]


Keynes is dead and we are living in his long run.
User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 14062 times:

While that may improve its relative performance to the current edges of its range, I doubt that will increase its capacity to carry fuel.

True, but what it would do is increase its potential payload capacity, ergo increasing its potential for revenue; thus further assisting whatever justification can be made for any such C-market flights.


25 Post contains images SafetyDude : Thanks for the link, but there's still a problem. If the ATWonline report is accurate (42 options = 17 773ER, 9 772ER, 16 7E7), the statement from ANZ
26 Post contains images ConcordeBoy : I never read anything about 772LR options. well... did you bother reading the airline's own press release? "The aircraft options will include the Boei
27 DfwRevolution : The 777s would be rubbish in the LHR-SYD role. QF needs CAPACITY on that route, the 777 would be a drop. I completely agree that QF needs the capacity
28 Post contains images SafetyDude : I never read anything about 772LR options. well... did you bother reading the airline's own press release? I never saw it. If I did read about it, I p
29 Bill142 : The 777s would be rubbish in the LHR-SYD role. QF needs CAPACITY on that route, the 777 would be a drop A niche aircraft operating a niche route. If p
30 Whitehatter : I completely agree that QF needs the capacity on this route. As I understand it, QF opperates SYD-BKK-LHR and SYD-SIN-LHR, all with the 744. But how a
31 ConcordeBoy : There's also good cargo to think of. Keep in mind though that a 773ER actually offers more cargo capacity (and similar payload uplift) to a pax 744.
32 DfwRevolution : The 773ER is still a drop from the 744 though, and QF can fill their planes without much of a problem. There's also good cargo to think of. Well... I
33 Jupiter2 : In regards to the 777LR being a capacity drop, please let us remember that QF are getting the 380's, so if 3 out of the 4 daily flights to LHR operate
34 Qantasclub : This is a secret fantasy of mine, to see the Boeing 777 in Qantas colours. It would be just fantastic. From a pax point of view, SO much better to fl
35 Whitehatter : I think there would indeed be a case for a mix of types on the route. Ideally I'd like to see QF operating a 772LR on a nonstop fast service, and a 74
36 Qantas077 : seems alot of people from everywhere but australia seem to know what qantas is or isn't about to do, few facts for you all! AirNZ has ordered 8 772ER
37 Post contains images A388 : I think it's nice and interesting to discuss rumours coming from the media about potential airline orders. But, regarding this possible QF interest in
38 777ER : Air NZ have ordered 8 B772ERs and 2 B7e7s. Air NZ have options on a further 42 B777 and B7e7 family planes. In About 8-9 years the B744 fleet replacem
39 Post contains images Sydscott : Lets put this debate into some sort of perspective shall we. "Both the A345 and/or 777LR seem attractive for QF, according to the rumours floating ar
40 Nz1 : Let me sort this out for all you guys who are hellbent on saying we have ordered/optioned the 772LR. We HAVE NOT optioned ANY 772LR at all. We have PU
41 Post contains images SafetyDude : SYD-DFW and SYD-Vancouver have also been done to death but for arguments sake let's raise them again DFW? I would expect SFO a bit before DFW. Let me
42 Bill142 : The only problem there is that QF has no feed at Vancouver. That can soon be changed. Although QF dosn't have many options in Canada. Westjet and jets
43 Post contains images Sydscott : "SYD-DFW and SYD-Vancouver have also been done to death but for arguments sake let's raise them again DFW? I would expect SFO a bit before DFW." SYD-
44 ANstar : QF have also confirmed 1 more of their A330 options, leaning towards the opinion they aren't getting rid of them anytime soon. I'd also think the A340
45 Bartond : Okay, I'll give it to you Aussies that know more about your home country airline than do I, but I can tell you right now that QF is not going to inves
46 GREATANSETT : Lets hope Qantas for Australia's sake takes the A340. QF won't trade in the A330's for the 7E7 yet or 777.[Edited 2004-08-13 08:43:37]
47 Post contains images ClassicLover : What do you mean, "For Australia's sake..." ? Weirdo QF will do whatever makes the most economic sense - and if that means the 777, it'll be the 777.
48 GREATANSETT : Sorry matter of opinion i should of said for my sake.
49 ERJ135 : In the past the A-net Qantas experts have explained many times that Qantas got the A330 for practically nothing as an enticement to buy the A380. Why
50 Bill142 : If there trading in A330's then the cost of 777 frames will be greatly reduced. The A333 didn't work on domestic routes but is a good fit for internat
51 Post contains images ConcordeBoy : We HAVE NOT optioned ANY 772LR at all. We have PURCHASE RIGHTS on more 772ER, 773ER and 7E7 aircraft. Once again, NO 772LR. Can't make it clearer than
52 Post contains images Luisca : saying that boeing can not sell a 777 by its merits is something stupid RT514, becouse you know perfectly well that the 777 outsold the A340 even thou
53 Post contains images RT514 : saying that boeing can not sell a 777 by its merits is something stupid RT514... I said no such thing. Perhaps a re-read of my post is in order.
54 PANAM_DC10 : Lot's of confusion over whether NZ has Purchase Rights or Options on the 772LR. ConcordeBoy points to the June 2nd? "press release" which is actually
55 Iowa744fan : First, my apologies for going off the topic a bit. I realize that the debates here have been centered around the 777/7E7 vs. the 330/340, but I have a
56 Iowa744fan : Sorry, I meant 744ER
57 Antares : A friend at Qantas tells me the original story that set off this thread comes from a Perth based jurnalist who keeps trying to tell the airline what t
58 SunriseValley : Iowa744FAN asks... Does anyone know the split between RR and GE for the ANZ 744s? I believe that the first 5 were Rolls powered and the last three wer
59 Whitehatter : There was apparently some advantage too with the GE powered birds and the lessor arrangements. I remember hearing that ordering them with GE engines m
60 SunriseValley : Whitehatter..... AirNZ's web site gives 4 744-400 as owned and 4 as leased. Another site, www.airfleets.net shows only one of the GE powered aircraft
61 Brutie : Re NZ's 744s 3 are RR powered (all owned), 5 are GE (1 owned, 4 leased from ILFC) I had heard that the reasons for switching to GE were higher than ex
62 Bill142 : . So Boeing sold them 6 firm and 6 optioned 744ERs at a ridiculous price (and for a very good jet) thinking it had bought time to persuade Qantas not
63 Post contains images Boeing767-300 : There is a saying I've heard that " If you are a major Airline not operating the B777 then you are Qantas or Lufthansa" Pity because QF B777 would loo
64 United Airline : Qantas ordered BOTH A 380 and B 747-300ER together. Air New Zealand hasn't place any FIRM order on the B 777-300ER yet. However, this COULD replace th
65 Post contains images Kim777fan : "There is a saying I've heard that " If you are a major Airline not operating the B777 then you are Qantas or Lufthansa" Or Virgin Atlantic... or Sout
66 Antares : Bill 142, You may have misunderstood me, probably because I wasn't clear enough. Yes the orders were announced at the same time, as we all know. But t
67 Post contains images United Airline : What I mean is -400ER not 300ER. Sorry. They should look at the B 747 Advanced instead!
68 QANTAS747 : Wow, this Geoff Dixon era brings about alot of speculation with his aircraft mix. I see his aim as being a cost-efficient, fairly common fleet, also c
69 Iowa744fan : Thanks for the info about the ANZ 744s everyone. Brutie, That is what I was wondering. I knew that they had a mixed fleet, and I was wondering what th
70 Jasepl : After reading all the posts - well, as much of each one as I could bring myself to before bursting into a fit of giggles - I've concluded that this is
71 Post contains images DfwRevolution : Why can't some people bring themselves to accept that a non-American company is preferred - for whatever reason - to an American one? Coming from som
72 Antares : Qantas747, I don't see Qantas flying a big twin, even a little twin, across or near Antarctica air space to South America EVER. Not even if the jets w
73 Post contains links Squirrel83 : Airports in Antarctica Name ICAO ID City Alternate Name BASE MARAMBIO SAWB MCMURDO STATION NZWD WILLIAMS FIELD MCMURDO STATION NZIR ICE RUNWAY MCMURDO
74 Antares : Squirrel, None of them are airport standard runways, with emergency services.They are scrapings on top of the ice in most cases. Please read my post w
75 Post contains images ConcordeBoy : I notice Qantas has always been very conservative about ETOPS and doesn't fly 767s to North America although NZ used to. Amusing how easily you "forge
76 Aussie747 : yes the 767's went to YTO and YVR via HNL on a daily schedule (4 x weekly to YVR and 3 x weekly to YTO) and that wasn't too long ago either.
77 Sydscott : "where you sit in terms of crappy seating and unacceptable delays because they just don't seem to be able to turn the jet around on time, at least no
78 Kim777fan : Even I would have to agree that if QF wanted to start service to South America like GRU, EZE, or LIM they would in all liklihood want to (and probably
79 Antares : Hi Sydscott, OK. Here's the drum. We recently flew a partner on DJ Sydney to Perth each way for $440 and he shouted himself a Blue Zone seat with more
80 Kim777fan : "But I do like Qantas." Whatever happened to that Koala that HATED Qantas?? I always thought he was CUTE!
81 Post contains images ConcordeBOy : The 240-minute ETOPS rule has met with considerable resistance ...from whom else other than 13yr-old aviation enthusiasts? and at THAT point, why both
82 Gigneil : It really does come down to one or two questions. Does QF want to make a nonstop SYD-LHR work? If so, the only choice at this point is the 777-200LR.
83 Post contains images SafetyDude : It really does come down to one or two questions. Does QF want to make a nonstop SYD-LHR work? This has been on mind for quite a bit now, but if QF do
84 Sydscott : "Does QF want to make a nonstop SYD-LHR work" Thats an ambitious route there Gig!!!!!!! I would seriously doubt they are considering it. For one they
85 Iowa744fan : With regards to Qantas flying 767s to N. America. At least for a while in 1992, they flew 763s to SFO. I can remember seeing them there in both March
86 Bill142 : s has been on mind for quite a bit now, but if QF does do a non-stop LHR-SYD route, what are the chances that BA (and possibly other airlines) would a
87 Nz1 : Iowa744fan: If you're suggesting that maybe QF could take some of NZ's RR-powered 744s it's very unlikely - one leased one is possibly being returned
88 Brutie : NZ1, Thanks for the info about the RR engines - the comments I'd heard about relative fuel-efficiency came from a customer who had worked at NZ a long
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