B727fan From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 292 posts, RR: 0 Posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 1929 times:
I was wondering how come planes taking off from EWR immediately bank eastward, then shortly after bank westward or continue on. I realize that the airspace between EWR, JFK & LGA is a tight one, but on approaches, the planes line up miles away heading "straight" for the runway. Can someone explain why the take offs are in "S" patterned climb while the landings don't seem to mind the straight approach?! Thanks.
JBLUA320 From United States of America, joined May 2002, 3160 posts, RR: 21 Reply 1, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 1904 times:
Hey
Im pretty sure you infact did answer your own questions. As the three major airports share the same airspace around the Metro area, each must be in accordance with the other 2s operations.
Its like a puzzle- when one airport uses one runway, the other two have to fit their operations so that their planes stay clear of the others traffic.
It could be for noise abatement, but I highly doubt that.
Spacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3255 posts, RR: 14 Reply 2, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 1879 times:
All airports have standard instrument departures (SIDS) and standard approaches (STARS). The three NYC area airports have to have coordinated SIDS/STARS as JBLUA320 mentioned, so this is probably the reason. I looked at the EWR SIDS, which you can see yourself at http://www.airnav.com/airport/ewr and I think I see the S-turn you're talking about in both departure charts - there's nothing in the narrative about it (page two) so I would think it's probably just for traffic separation purposes. If it was for an obstruction or noise abatement it would probably say so in the narrative.
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Timz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6468 posts, RR: 8 Reply 3, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 1837 times:
It's impossible to see how the initial left turn off of runway 22, or the initial right turn off of runway 4, would help with traffic separation. Much of the time LGA arrivals are over the Hudson River at 4000 ft; the departures are turning toward them. I'd say it's unquestionably for noise abatement and nothing else.
JBLUA320 From United States of America, joined May 2002, 3160 posts, RR: 21 Reply 4, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 1806 times:
Timz,
Id wager a bet that it is definately unrelated to noise abatement. TLC did a show with the Port Authority some time ago specifically on this subject- I wish I could find it!
AAR90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 3410 posts, RR: 50 Reply 5, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 1751 times:
The S-turn is to put the EWR departing acft inside its "climb corridor" to not interfer with both inbound and outbound traffic from any of the area's airports. If all is well, you won't be stopped at 5,000' for very long (if at all).
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PHLapproach From Philippines, joined Mar 2004, 1181 posts, RR: 22 Reply 6, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 1733 times:
The Mariner Two Departure Procedure (DP) off 4L/4R calls for a 060 heading then at I-EZA 4 DME turn left 290, climb maintain 2,500....Thence. On a Mariner Two DP for 22L/22R it's a initial left turn to 190, once crossing I-LSQ 2.3 DME turn right to 220, climb maintain 2500....Thence.
Now the Newark Seven DP basically calls for the same things as Mariner Two on both ends. Although for 22L/22R departures should expect Radar Vectors Direct LANNA, Sparta (SAX), or Pottstown (PTW).
These DP's are specifically designed for traffic to stay out of the surrounding airports LGA, JFK's airspace. Why do you think the Canarie Climb (CRI) DP was created.... for traffic to not go into LGA's airspace.
Trickijedi From United States of America, joined May 2001, 3266 posts, RR: 5 Reply 7, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1720 times:
I've noticed the eastbound turn and then west for some LGA departures as well. Just thought I'd bring it up here in case they may be related.
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Sdkualeb From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 129 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 1637 times:
IT KEEP THE AIRTRAFFIC AWAY FROM THE RESIDENTUAL AREA'S OF Elizabeth AND NEWARK, DEPENDING ON THE RUNWAY USED. IF YOU NOTICE THAT MOST OF THE TAKE Offs ARE OVER PORT ELIZABETH.
WindowSeat From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1307 posts, RR: 59 Reply 10, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 1584 times:
First off, this has everything to do with noise abatement and citizens' concerns than anything else. It does not really have any bearing on entering any of the other airspaces as mentioned by some.
Both runway 22 departures at EWR call for immediate heading changes to get the aircraft over the water as opposed to the land for noise abatement. While in the early 80s and before the FAA introduced the Expanded East Coast Plan (EECP) in the 90s the bearing change from the initial 190 turn to the 220 happened a little later than 2.3 DME which was then pulled back to the current 2.3 DME due to noise concerns over the Staten Island area. Newark also has take off minimums of at least 410 ft climb rate to minimize noise.
These DP's are specifically designed for traffic to stay out of the surrounding airports LGA, JFK's airspace. Why do you think the Canarie Climb (CRI) DP was created.... for traffic to not go into LGA's airspace.
I agree that the turns to 290 (rwy 4s) and the 220 turn (rwy 22s) is indeed to get out of each others airspaces, but I think the question was, why the initial turn to 060 (rwy 4s) and 190 (rwy 22s)? If at all these turns put traffic closer to LGA.
Since the EECP, when introduced, did not take into consideration traffic below 3000' these procedures have stayed. Apparently there were tests conducted by the FAA on straight-out departures at EWR and there are allegations that the findings were destroyed. There is a lot of political wrangling that took place of EWR's departures and the saga still continues. Until a decision is reached, these procedures are here to stay.
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