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KLM And Airbus  
User currently offlineFJWH From Netherlands, joined May 2004, 968 posts, RR: 4
Posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 7412 times:

Years back, KL flew airbus planes.

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Photo © Pedro Aragão


What was the reason that they quit operating Airbus aircraft?
What about the (near) future, can we expect airbus again (in KL livery)? If so, which aircraft('s)

Thanks,

FJWH


FlightS in the next 3 months: MSP, PHX, MEM, NCE, TFS, BCN. All round trips from AMS
55 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineWietse From Netherlands, joined Oct 2001, 3809 posts, RR: 55
Reply 1, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 7237 times:

Future: A330-200s are ordered. Dont know how many, but they are coming.


Wietse de Graaf
User currently offlineFeeble From Netherlands, joined Jul 2004, 17 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 7240 times:

Didn't KLM order a dozen of A330s?

User currently offlineKl911 From Ireland, joined Jul 2003, 5114 posts, RR: 12
Reply 3, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 7218 times:

Google is sooo easy.....  Laugh out loud

http://www.eads.net/frame/lang/en/1024/xml/content/OF00000000400004/7/55/495557.html

November 14, 2002

KLM Royal Dutch Airlines has signed the contract with Airbus for the purchase of six A330-200s and further 18 purchase-rights of this type herewith formalizing an earlier commitment. Deliveries for the aircraft are scheduled to begin in April 2005. In KLM’s layout the aircraft will seat around 250 passengers in a comfortable two-class-cabin. The engine selection has yet to be made.



Next trip : DUB-AUH-CGK-DPS-KUL-AUH-CDG-ORK :-)
User currently offlineAlitaliaMD11 From Spain, joined Dec 2003, 4068 posts, RR: 13
Reply 4, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 7173 times:

Hey

with this new AF partner ship they will probaly be seeing alot more Airbus in thier future. I think that there A330s are for deliveryin 2007.



No Vueling No Party
User currently offlineKl911 From Ireland, joined Jul 2003, 5114 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 7168 times:

AlitaliaMD11,

Read the posts....

Deliveries for the aircraft are scheduled to begin in April 2005.

KL911



Next trip : DUB-AUH-CGK-DPS-KUL-AUH-CDG-ORK :-)
User currently offlineZweed From Netherlands, joined Apr 2004, 455 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 7155 times:

These future 330's of KLM. on what routes will they possibly ble flying?
Are they replacing the MD-11 fleet?


User currently offlineMauriceB From Netherlands, joined Aug 2004, 2488 posts, RR: 25
Reply 7, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 7152 times:

the reason KLM didn't bought an Airbus after the A310's is that they prefered the Boeing products 737NG the 747-400 didn't had a competitor from airbus, MD-11 for long range (A340-200 didn't had what KLM wanted) and 767 for A310 replacement, so there weren't any markets except for the 737NG market where KLM could choose Airbus.... so nothing about that they dislike them.

the 6 A330-200;s will arive in August , October , December 2005 and the last 3 in 2006, so its a very slow process... A330 is supposed to be the replacement of the 12 767-300ER's and with a possible combi of 777/A330 will replace the last 6 767's




greets maurice


User currently offlineFJWH From Netherlands, joined May 2004, 968 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 7135 times:

Nice, I can't wait to see those A330's in the (new) KL color scheme  Smile. Really curious how it looks.

FJWH



FlightS in the next 3 months: MSP, PHX, MEM, NCE, TFS, BCN. All round trips from AMS
User currently offlineA319114 From Netherlands, joined Aug 2004, 541 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 7091 times:

Well something like this:
http://www.cardatabase.net/modifiedairlinerphotos/search/photo_search.php?id=00000751

By the way: the a330s will be equiped with GE engines:
http://www.geae.com/aboutgeae/presscenter/cf6/cf6_20040428.html
Best looking engines on the a330 IMHO  Big thumbs up



Destruction leads to a very rough road but it also breeds creation
User currently offlineKl911 From Ireland, joined Jul 2003, 5114 posts, RR: 12
Reply 10, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 7074 times:

Nice to see those colours on the 330!

Guess I'll never see them at MRS, we've only got 3 F-70's per day...  Pissed

KL911



Next trip : DUB-AUH-CGK-DPS-KUL-AUH-CDG-ORK :-)
User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 11, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 7007 times:

Over the years, KLM worked much more closely with McDonnell Douglas (jet airliners - DC8,DC9,DC10,MD11) and then Boeing. Until now, the only Airbus airliner that KLM has flown is the A310-200 for which KLM was one of the launch customers. KLM did not have a great experience with the A310, nothing wrong with the aircaft (aside from a few typical introduction problems), the problem was that KLM could not use the A310-200 effectively on its route system. Flying 200 pax aircraft on the intra-European routes that the type was designed for did not work out as planned (pax want frequency and beng that AMS is a huge connection hub, less departures with big aircraft did not work) and since the A310-200 was a bit short in range for transatlantic operations, KLM ended up using the A310s on routes to the mideast, the gulf and some African destinations (some of these routes were also a bit of a strech for the type)......KLM phased out the A310-200s in favor of the 763ERs which offered more range, more passenger capacity. Note that KLM considers the 763s a compromise aircraft, since although its very versatile, it does not have the cargo capacity that KLM is looking for.

KLM has ordered the A332, 6 firm plus lots of options. KLM's exact fleet planning is still not clear, the 777s and A332s will over time replace both the 763 and MD11 fleets......but not enough aircraft are on firm order to accomplish that and KLM is interested in more 777s. A lot depends on what AF does with KL over the long term: first we must see how many long aircraft KL really needs as routes are rationalized and the AF and KL networks coordinated if not combined.


User currently offlineKl911 From Ireland, joined Jul 2003, 5114 posts, RR: 12
Reply 12, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 6984 times:

''' A lot depends on what AF does with KL over the long term: first we must see how many long aircraft KL really needs as routes are rationalized and the AF and KL networks coordinated if not combined.'''

Sorry, slightly off-topic:

What routes do you think can come to AMS, or leave for CDG?
There should be some logic in that.

( Being it a Sunday today I hope Jwenting is visiting his family....  Laugh out loud)

Besides, If a KL777 goes tech, is it possible to 'borrow' an AF plane? I recall that MP and KL sometimes uses eachother planes. In that case we might see An AF340/330 at AMS incase they also don't have a spare 777.

KL911



Next trip : DUB-AUH-CGK-DPS-KUL-AUH-CDG-ORK :-)
User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 13, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 6957 times:

Hey Kl911....regarding routes, its already happening, AF will fly to Caracas and KL will drop service there, and KL will fly to Jarkarta, with AF dropping service. In the future, I would imagine that KL and AF will coodinate on routes to certain cities in Africa and South America......duplication of services in some cases will be eliminated. Its too soon too tell what will happen, a lot depends on if worldwide traffic continues to increase and how the yeilds are system wide.

Re an AF plane subbing for a KL airliner - why not? I can surely see that happening in the future, and AF and KL using or leasing eachother's aircraft for certain routes or to adjust capacity during certain times of the year.


User currently offlineKl911 From Ireland, joined Jul 2003, 5114 posts, RR: 12
Reply 14, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 6931 times:

Dutchjet,

Thanks! Yes I know about a the Caracas and Jakarta routes, I was just wondering if there will be a strategy, like only AF to Africa, and only KL to Asia.

On a sidenote, are the reservation and sales offices in Holland and France still separate? And how about the check in and ticket desks at AMS and CDG

KL911



Next trip : DUB-AUH-CGK-DPS-KUL-AUH-CDG-ORK :-)
User currently offlineSabena 690 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 6926 times:

LJ has once made an interesting post about the reasons why KLM took the A310 out of service.

If he sees this topic, I'm sure that he will reply.

(Being it a Sunday today I hope Jwenting is visiting his family....  Laugh out loud)

This one made my day!  Big thumbs up

Frederic


User currently offlineLj From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4401 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 6713 times:

Dutchjet is not exactly right The A310 didn't exactly worked out well. However this was not the inefficient flying of the A310 but basically it was the result of a strategy change (which made them inefficient). At first KLM's strategy was to serve Europe with a mixture of large and small aircraft like they did in the DC-8 / DC-9 years. However later on KLM opted for high frequency instead of large aircraft (flying 4 B737s to MAD is a little bit more customer friendly then only 2 A310s). However, the A310s were a blessing as it meant that KLM could retain its Middle East schedule while serving the Far east nonstop (during the first Gulf war KLM started to fly nonstop to BKK etc) Only it wasn't ideal and therefore it was suddenly replaced by the leased B767s. However the main reason why KLM wanted the B767 was again a change of strategy (this time a change in its long haul strategy).

BTW at the time had to decide to purchase the A310 the B767 was also an option. However Boeing couldn't deliver it in time hence the reason why they opted for the A310-200

What routes do you think can come to AMS, or leave for CDG?

KLM will stop flying to Doula and leave the destination to AF as of winter schedule.

Regarding the A330 routes. Strong rumours that Quito and Guayaquil will become A330 destinations (without a stop in Bonaire). However, given the fact that the MD-11 is a very suitable aircraft for this route I doubt it will be the first one


User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9693 posts, RR: 11
Reply 17, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 6616 times:

Interesting topic. I also wonder which routes will see KL 332 service. I was also thinking of the flights operated to Quito and Guayaquil as well as Lima nonstop. I would also use the 332 on the Curaçao and Aruba flights during the low season. In my opinion the 332 would be ideal for this route during the low season. It was also mentioned in the local newspaper in Curaçao (Amigoe) that KLM might use the 777 nonstop to Quito, Guayaquil and Lima, making the current Bonaire hub redundant. Any news on this?

A388


User currently offlineAirKas1 From Netherlands, joined Dec 2003, 3958 posts, RR: 55
Reply 18, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 6419 times:

I don't think KLM will drop Bonaire. The airport there is undergoing some major changes (They built catering buildings, built a large fuel depot, extended the runway with 300m, built a whole new departure terminal (which is very beautiful, I've been in it this year)).

And since KLM is the biggest and most frequent visitor there, I doubt they would do all that, when they could be losing the position as a stop between Lima/Guayaquil/Quito.

But since I'm am a frequent visitor in the caribbean (especially Bonaire), I would love to see the A332 there.

Just my thoughts...

Kas


User currently offlineN808NW From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 374 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 6345 times:

Dose anyone think KLM will use the 332 on AMS-MSP?


All flights have great IFE...get yourself a window seat, thats something no PTV can beat! flew 808 Pacific an Atlanic
User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 20, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 6277 times:

Dose anyone think KLM will use the 332 on AMS-MSP?

-------

While anything is possible and the KL A332s could be assigned to the AMS-MSP route, I do not think its likely. NW seems to be flying most of the routes out of AMS to their hubs in DTW, MSP and MEM, plus KL/NW move a lot of passengers between AMS and the NW hubs such as MSP......MSP-AMS will eventually get NW A333 service, and if KL was to operate on of the flights between those two cities, I would think an MD11 would operate the route.....or maybe a 777.


User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9693 posts, RR: 11
Reply 21, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 6261 times:

How is the load factor between AMS/BON and UIO/GYE/LIM? Is demand that much to justify these services? I never understood why KL operated between these countries as demand always seemed poor between these cities, except for the summer season. It wouldn't surprise me that the number of people flying between AMS and UIO/GYE/LIM wouldn't be that substantial. My only question is if the BON stop (or even the CUR stop in the past) between AMS and UIO/GYE/LIM is really that necessary. How are the load factors?

I didn't mean for KL to stop flying to BON all together. The AMS-BON flights are lucrative but I was only wondering about the UIO/GYE/LIM flights. Now that KL has or is investing in BON airport facilities doesn't mean they have to continue all flights. The expansion made is already very useful for the nonstop AMS flights.

I also wouldn't mind seeing KL's 332 flying to BON or CUR/AUA. The 332 will be wearing one of the most beautiful liveries when wearing the KL new livery  Wink/being sarcastic

A388


User currently offlineHorus From Egypt, joined Feb 2004, 5230 posts, RR: 60
Reply 22, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 6251 times:

Dutchjet, According to Flight International the A332s (in most cases) will replace the routes that are currently flown by the 763s, as well as having the 777s replacing the the routes currently flown by MD-11s.

Horus




EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
User currently offlineWietse From Netherlands, joined Oct 2001, 3809 posts, RR: 55
Reply 23, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 6182 times:

so far so good re: Jwenting  Big grin


Wietse de Graaf
User currently offlineAirKas1 From Netherlands, joined Dec 2003, 3958 posts, RR: 55
Reply 24, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 6120 times:

I don't know numbers for the loadfactors. But it looks to me like the seats that are being left empty between BON and UIO/GYE/LIM (from the passengers that get out on BON), won't be filled again. So the current MD-11 will have empty seats on the flight down south.

However, on the way back some South-American people will get out on Bonaire (probably not all that much either), but for sure it's going to fly BON-AMS fully loaded.


Now that KL has or is investing in BON airport facilities doesn't mean they have to continue all flights. The expansion made is already very useful for the nonstop AMS flights.

I don't know if KLM is sharing some costs with the island.And I hope the new features will bring more airlines and more different aircraft to Bonaire, with later on (they haven't yet begun building the cargo terminal) even bring cargo planes to BON.

The 332 will be wearing one of the most beautiful liveries when wearing
the KL new livery.


I couldn't agree more.

And I also wouldn't mind seeing 777's at BONBig thumbs up

Kas.


25 ACES320 : Some years back KL operated the BOG - AMS route. I do not know what the underlying strategy was for South America but operating to Quito and Lima alon
26 Post contains images A388 : I also don't know about BOG or Colombia, but the UIO/GYE/LIM flights still puzzle me, because KL has been operating those flights for a long time now.
27 Kevin752 : I never knew that KL ever opperated any Airbus planes. They actually looked nice in a A310. I will be sad to see their livery dissappear soon. Well t
28 MauriceB : I don't think KLM will drop Bonaire. The airport there is undergoing some major changes (They built catering buildings, built a large fuel depot, exte
29 Post contains images A388 : I agree with you MauriceB, The investment KL made in the BON aiport facilities isn't that much (looking at how big KL is). The word "hub" is very misl
30 Post contains images AirKas1 : owh and about the new departure building: its stunning isnt it with only 1 sigaret and 1 alcohol shop :-P (iv been there too this year) Yes, but it's
31 Lj : I also don't know about BOG or Colombia, but the UIO/GYE/LIM flights still puzzle me, because KL has been operating those flights for a long time now.
32 Keesje : Other reason to replace the 767 is the increased cargo capasity. LD2´s make it fully compatible with the other widebodies. Range/crew wise the A330 a
33 Dakota : Hi, I flew AMS-GYE in may, and actually only a few people did leave the plane in BON. Furthermore: Ecuador is a very touristic destination, also a lot
34 Kl911 : Yes, I always flew the 8.25 767 to LHR every Monday morning, what will replace this 767 when they are gone? Will they use a 330 which is not needed fo
35 Dakota : Question: Is there currently a European airline using an aircraft as large as the A330 on inter-European flights, except KLM on AMS-LHR with the 767?
36 Aerosol : BA uses 767 on LHR DUS sometimes.
37 Horus : The following use widebodies from their respective hubs to LHR: LH (A300s) LX (A330s) TAP (A340s) seasonal Iberia (A340s) seasonal Olympic (A340s) sea
38 Schoenorama : I have actually flown a couple of times on the KL A310's on the AMS-MAD route. I loved the aircraft particularly because they were never full. Guess t
39 Post contains images ACES320 : I'm not 100% sure but KLM cited security reasons and low loadfactors when they discontinued BOG. Furthermore I doubt anyone in The Netherlands is wai
40 Lj : What a poor reason you give: BA, AF, IB would follow suit then according to your reasoning I can't speak about the situation at LHR, MAD or any other
41 MauriceB : I'm not 100% sure but KLM cited security reasons and low loadfactors when they discontinued BOG. Furthermore I doubt anyone in The Netherlands is wai
42 Kl911 : MauriceB, About half a year ago the Dutch government said that if KLM didn't do anything about the drugs problem from those countries that those fligh
43 Fokker50 : I think that KLM passed thought the same problems as AA. The airbus planes didn't made KLM happy. Just like the AA MD's 11. FOKKER50
44 ACES320 : By the way if something is to blame shutting down a route is loads. Finally Airlines' business is to transport people indeed. They would pull off a ro
45 Thrust : It would be nice of KLM ordered the A333 too....however, it is strange KLM is still placing orders for new aircraft despite the fact that their time a
46 GlobeTrekker : AirKas1 I don't think KLM will drop Bonaire. The airport there is undergoing some major changes (They built catering buildings, built a large fuel dep
47 ACES320 : Very good indeed GlobeTrekker That was smarter. Provided is demand there will be a route. Airlines do their best to keep security under required stand
48 Post contains images FLYSSC : A long haul fleet consisting in A332/B777/B744 ... Doesn't it remind you another airline... ? (that one that is not washing its plane daily...) LH & B
49 Post contains links GlobeTrekker : Thank you very much ACES320. I also agree with what FLYSSC said. You can also read this: http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.ma
50 Keesje : FLYSSC A long haul fleet consisting in A332/B777/B744 ... Doesn't it remind you another airline... ? (that one that is not washing its plane daily...)
51 MauriceB : FLYSSC A long haul fleet consisting in A332/B777/B744 ... Doesn't it remind you another airline... ? mmmmm cathay eva Malaysian China southern (soon)
52 GlobeTrekker : I am started to get worried...no sign of Jwenting yet. GlobeTrekker
53 Post contains images Kl911 : I've heard a rumour that Jwenting is on a RTW. Guess ( hope ) it's by bike... KL911
54 Post contains images AirKas1 : Impressive answer in post 46, GlobeTrekker Do you think DCA will survive? Because when I was on vacation on BON I read that they would get ($/Nfl)7M f
55 Post contains links GlobeTrekker : AirKas1: Honestly I think it's not a matter of "if" DCA goes under, but more of when.... Read this article: http://www.amigoe.com/artman/publish/artic
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