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Why Don't CO, DL, Or NW Fly To Australia?  
User currently offlineACB777 From Canada, joined Sep 2003, 350 posts, RR: 2
Posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 9729 times:

Why don't CO, DL, and NW fly to Australia? Is it because that the route would not be profitable for them? I find that hard to imagine, because it seems that there is a lot of demand for USA - Australia routes. Since CO and NW are going to join Delta in Skyteam, I believe that there should be a direct route by a Skyteam airline from USA - Australia. This would be a much better route to Australia instead of the KE route via ICN. Also, this would also expand the Skyteam route network. Is it possible that these airlines could start new direct routes from USA - Australia (e.g., IAH-SYD, MSP-SYD, DTW-SYD, ATL-SYD, etc). These airlines would probably need a plane such as the 777-200LR to do this non - stop, however.

What are your thoughts on this?

[Edited 2004-08-28 08:28:38]

[Edited 2004-08-28 08:29:16]

44 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineN1120a From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26593 posts, RR: 75
Reply 1, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 9636 times:

Some years ago, NW did DTW-Osaka-SYD and LAX-SYD flights with their 744s. They printed money on the routes, particularly on the Osaka-Sydney segments as they had 5th freedom. The problem arrose when the Aussie government stepped in at QF's behest and limited the PAX NW could carry Osaka-SYD and NW bugged out. CO does fly to Australia, from GUM with Air Mike


Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineBNE From Australia, joined Mar 2000, 3186 posts, RR: 12
Reply 2, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 9646 times:

I think NW is the only airline that would have the planes to fly from USA to Australia. If each of the airlines NW, CO and DL could co-ordinate their schedule at a city like LAX then it might be possible. I am not sure of the exact figures but a lot of passengers ex Australia will usually stop in LAX.

Another problem for CO, NW, DL, there hubs aren't really places that Australians would tend to visit. MSP, DTW, MEM. IAH, CLE, EWR. SLC, DFW, ATL, CVG. Can anyone name of anything historically important or must see attraction which would warrant a visit. Those hubs are also not western with SLC still being 2 hours flying from LAX.

Another problem is that with Qantas being the primary carrier and only full service carrier. If you want to travel outside of Sydney you got to fly Qantas or Virgin if don't mind LCC.

If they are looking at this route then they better get to it fast before a Virgin company beats them to it. A Virgin owned company, whether an offshoot of Virgin Atlantic or Virgin Blue, were considering flying US-AUS in the next year or so.






Why fly non stop when you can connect
User currently offlineLtbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13138 posts, RR: 15
Reply 3, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 9518 times:

Didn't Hawiian air take one of the slots of a USA carrier to Syndey, with their flights from Honolulu? Don't forget that you have UA, Qantas & Hawiian to Sydney. Qantas and the Austrialian government likes to protect their home carrier and thus making it not economical for the other carriers expand. I think the CO connection to Australia is into Carins, in far nothern Queensland. Let's not forget that this is not a cheap route to run, requiring several 747's or long range 340's, double crews, and expensive ground support.

User currently offlineSkyteam10001 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 197 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 9424 times:

you can look at this thread for answers

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1509812/4/

hope this helps
A.


User currently offlineKim777fan From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 510 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 9280 times:

"Another problem for CO, NW, DL, there hubs aren't really places that Australians would tend to visit."

But isn't the issue Americans visiting Australia rather than the other way around??? There's a whole plethora of flights going to Florida and the Caribbean and it has absolutely nothing with residents of Barbados visiting Philadelphia. Since NW already operates LAX - NRT and LAX - HNL, they already have enough presence there at LAX to start an LAX - SYD service with a 744.

It may be distance that is the biggest consideration as IAH - SYD is 8596 miles putting Sydney JUUUST out of reach. (Not by much, but it's the longest range jetliner CO currently operates, same with DL). ATL - SYD is 9258 miles and no commercial aircraft has that range except for *MAYBE* the A345, and Delta don't got 'em.


User currently offlineGitano From Puerto Rico, joined Aug 2004, 30 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 9235 times:

CO does fly to Australia. It does so from GUM

1CO 902 GUMCNS 635P 1110P 738 0 435


User currently offlineStevenUhl777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 9196 times:

United has been the dominant US carrier to Australia since '86 using 742's via HNL, and eventually nonstop with the 744s from SFO and LAX, which they still operate. In fact, UA just announced their increasing their frequency to SYD for the Aussie summer season. There's a press release on http://www.united.com that explains more.

Hawaiian just received authority to fly HNL-SYD with 763's, which also will rely on feed from SEA, PDX, SFO, LAX, and SAN.

I'd be very curious to learn why NW stopped serving LAX-SYD with their 744's. How long did NW fly the route, and when?

CO and DL don't have the aircraft to operate LAX/SFO to SYD. I suppose they could try HNL, but the profit opportunity must not be there for them.


User currently offlineSCRAMJET From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 99 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 9157 times:

"MSP, DTW, MEM. IAH, CLE, EWR. SLC, DFW, ATL, CVG. Can anyone name of anything historically important or must see attraction which would warrant a visit?"

Well, I'm sure Aussies would love to visit The King in MEM!

And any Aussies interested in Diana Ross and the Supremes would CERTAINLY want to visit DTW!

The oil companies would enjoy direct service to IAH and Mormon Aussies might want to visit SLC!

So, there you have it! Justification for US-based SkyTeam members to begin direct services from the US mainland to Oz!

 Nuts
SJ


User currently offlineThrust From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 2690 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 8984 times:

AA used to fly Sydney with the Boeing 707s, or was that Melbourne? It was very briefly during the 1970s.


Fly one thing; Fly it well
User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6489 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 8722 times:

KIM777fan,

I would be willing to bet, that on any flight between Australia and the US on any airline, there are more other nationalities onboard the fights than US citizens.


User currently offlineAntares From Australia, joined Jun 2004, 1402 posts, RR: 39
Reply 11, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 8608 times:

Note for N1120a, the US carriers didn't print money flying to Australia unless you are talking Confederate currency. They did their backsides. NW was selling tickets from JFK to SYD via the old Osaka airport for under $200 and CO had as $1 Chickenfeed offer on connecting flights into its US network from LAX on top of the TransPac fare. They raped themselves would be the kindest way of putting it. NW thought the Osaka routing would give it access to the rich Australia-Japan market, but were too dumb to realise that it was all but totally controlled by the seven major Japanese tour wholesalers. The result was that they couldn't give the seats away, and while the Australian government intervened inappropriately in my opinion to discourage them flying the route it was actually a mercy killing.

The general situation was just too ruinous to continue, even though they were fantastic for bringing Americans and Australians to see each other's patch while the good times lasted.

Note for BNE. I've had it up to my creaking ancient joints with silly comments about Virgin Blue being OK if you like LCCs. Two recent flights in full economy in Qantas were so pathetic in terms of so called service give me the lovely ladies and clean jets and cheap fares and equally comfy seats on Virgin Blue anyday.

It is hard to imagine any US carrier taking on Qantas in the immediate future either in terms of equipment or service standards, which may be ordinary by Aussie standards but blindingly brilliant compared to the crap dished out by the likes of AA and UA within the US. It will happen but I'm stuffed if I know when.


User currently offlineZK-NBT From New Zealand, joined Oct 2000, 5350 posts, RR: 11
Reply 12, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 7847 times:

AA flew to AKL and SYD also in the early 1990's with DC10's routing DFW-HNL-AKL 3x weekly and DFW-HNL-SYD 4x weekly. Service didn't last long though.

I think those 3 airlines NW, CO and DL could hub services through LAX with an NW 744 operating LAX-SYD and possibly LAX-AKL wishful thinking there on my part, though I am a little surprised that no one replaced UA on LAX-AKL.


User currently offlineN9801F From Samoa, joined Apr 2004, 335 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 7696 times:

The answer is very easy: these carriers don't have sufficiently big hubs on the West Coast.

User currently offlineJetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7414 posts, RR: 50
Reply 14, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 7595 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

We started flying LAX,HNL-SYD in January of 1990. and terminated it April of 96. The route has been leased out for several years. The HNL route was sold outright, while the LAX-SYD is still being leased. NW lost money because there was little or no feed out of LAX and the tickets were heavily discounted. Now, I think that this market will be addressed if not sooner, than later. It all depends who will put up the money for it.


Made from jets!
User currently offlineJoFMO From Germany, joined Jul 2004, 2211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 7527 times:

Could CO fly IAH-AKL-SYD with their triple7?

I think IAD the nearest Skyteam hub to OZ.


User currently offlineAirportugal310 From Tokelau, joined Apr 2004, 3656 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 7470 times:

Gitano is right.

Continental flies to Cairns, Australia. Dont know the specifics on aircraft type, but it could actually be Continental Micronesia.



I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
User currently offlineJetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7414 posts, RR: 50
Reply 17, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 7320 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Air Mike 902, I believe flies a 737-800 into GUM-CNS.


Made from jets!
User currently offlineNickofatlanta From Australia, joined May 2000, 1488 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 7252 times:

Antares - "It is hard to imagine any US carrier taking on Qantas in the immediate future either in terms of equipment or service standards, which may be ordinary by Aussie standards but blindingly brilliant compared to the crap dished out by the likes of AA and UA within the US. It will happen but I'm stuffed if I know when."

Whilst I agree with you that it is unlikely that another US carrier will enter the market between the US and Australia anytime soon, I would definitely take AA More Room Throughout Coach over QF's Economy Class any day! Same with UA Economy Plus over QF.


User currently offlineAntares From Australia, joined Jun 2004, 1402 posts, RR: 39
Reply 19, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 7089 times:

Hi Nickofatlanta,

Yes you are right about the extra room. But is it true that AA is removing the 'more room' configuration to drive down ASMs? (I hope not.)


Antares


User currently offlineCospn From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Oct 2001, 1623 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 7019 times:

Gitano Thank for remembering AirMike 737-800 3x per week GUM-CNS
1CO 902 GUMCNS 635P 1110P 738 0 435

We Tried GUM-BNE SYD with DC-10's it didnt work but it was grate to fly to SYD as it is in Our (Guam's) Time Zone..




User currently offlineBaw716 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 2028 posts, RR: 27
Reply 21, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 7014 times:

Hi all,
Most all of your answers are correct...not having the right equipment, challenging feed, etc. However, since Australia is a single market destination (in other words, not much connecting traffic beyond Sydney) and with no alliance partner in Australia, given the current level of competition in the market, it is highly unlikely that an Australian operation would be profitable.

Once the 7E7 is a reality, that could change.



David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
User currently offlineAirbear From Australia, joined May 2001, 648 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 7001 times:

CO ... I was told by my travel agent in DRW, that Air Mike have started, or will start soon, flts. bet. GUM & DRW, as well as CNS. Also, CO flew into SYD for many years with DC-10's. My wife and I took our honeymoon trip SYD/NAN on CO, not too long after they started here. At one point, they had a one-stop flt. SYD/JFK via HNL, as well as service to LAX.

NW ... I remember that there was a lot of political interference in their services, with QF as ever, whining in the govt.'s ear. They were not allowed to carry 5th-freedom pax bet. Australia & Japan. (UA at the time had - and poss. still do - have rights for Aust./Japan, but chose not to use them at the time) They all had to be thru' pax to Detroit of all places, when I believe most traffic ex Australia wants to go the West Coast. As for HNL, this was the during the time when traffic and tourism from Aust. to Hawaii was declining. HA also served the route, (L1011's from SYD to HNL via Pago Pago) and pulled out, only returning in May this year.


User currently offlineStirling From Italy, joined Jun 2004, 3943 posts, RR: 21
Reply 23, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 6979 times:

AA began it's service to Australasia with the 707.

In addition to the obvious carriers, Air Pacific and Air New Zealand have traffic rights between the US and Australia. There is already plenty of competition on the SYD-LAX route.



Delete this User
User currently offlineGemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5710 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 6911 times:

The short answer is: MONEY.

Not just income from the services but the ROI or return on investment. The ROI on US-SW Pacific services would be horriable. All US airlines can make more money by investing in other routes. In fact I would bet that UA would make more money by closing their OZ operation and using there 744 elsewhere.

Why is it such an expensive route to operate?
a) It's l-o-n-g, it requires at least two aircraft per daily frequency. You must do it non stop which means B744 (preferable 744ER), A345/6 or B777, none of which are cheap to buy and very few are on the used market and the 777 has ETOPS issues, although not major ones.

b) It's T-H-I-N. If you draw a line from the equator to the South Pole that passes just east of Madagascar, then from the South Pole back to the Equator that passes just west of the west coast of South America, then back to your start point, staying south of the Republic of Indonesia, then you have just enclosed about 30% of the worlds surface. How many people live in this area?

30 Million, on a good day! About the population of the LA Basin plus the Bay Area! Far less than CA's 50 million.

Now given the above stated aircraft types, how many flights a day are going to be profitable? Today QF had five, two SYD-LAX, one each MEL-LAX, SYD-BNE-LAX, SYD-AKL-LAX, UA had one SYD-LAX & one SYD-SFO, NZ had one AKL-LAX. In addation there may have been one NZ AKL-SFO, one TN PPT-LAX and one FJ NAN-LAX, all 744 or A340 and FJ has a 738 NAN-HNL-YVR tonight and NZ may have a 763 on an island hopper to LAX.

Are they all profitable? I don't know but I'd bet not. Do they all earn a commerical rate of return? I doubt it. My guesstimate is that one QF SYD-LAX & NZ's AKL-LAX flights do so. QF's MEL-LAX would be boarderline, all the others, not a hope in hell!

Given the above why would any carrier that does not live here bother?


Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
25 Chrisrad : Singapore Airlines has applied a few times to fly SYD-LAX but the Australian goverment had not approved it?So there must be some money in it, if they
26 Post contains images Skyteam10001 : Gemuser, the OZ-LAX route is one of the most profitable in Qantas' network, which is why the airline is fighting against any other airline willing to
27 Gemuser : Skyteam10001 You are right that OZ-LAX is profitable for QF. Does it make a commerical ROI? Nobody outside QF knows for sure, but I'd bet its not grea
28 Aa777jr : With all the flying in Asia NW does on B744, it's amazing they don't go to SYD. Why not? AA777jr
29 United Airline : LAX-SYD is very profitable for UA too. UA is committed to the Australian market.
30 Jetjack74 : With the SkyTeam being on the final assembly line, Australia is good prospect. NW on it's own was simply overwhelmed by the competition, with QF, UA,
31 Sccutler : Inherent in every one of these ubiquitous threads is the presumption that connecting at LAX is a good thing. Which it ain't, unless LA is your destina
32 Kim777fan : No kidding it's about range. DFW - SYD is 8578 miles, or just short of the record distance of covered by the A345 between LAX and SIN. Besides, the th
33 Ryanair : As Antares said last time they tried it 10-15 years ago it was a blood bath. UA and QF stuck it because they had 744's in great enough numbers to have
34 ConcordeBoy : I think IAD the nearest Skyteam hub to OZ Even in the event you meant IAH, the statement is still incorrect.
35 EK40 : If CO flew EWR-AKL/SYD/MEL then I think they would gain on a lot of European regional business, i.e BHX/GLA/EDI/OSL I would fly them if the price was
36 ConcordeBoy : If CO flew EWR-AKL/SYD/MEL then I think they would gain on a lot of European regional business, i.e BHX/GLA/EDI/OSL ...er, why? CO Have a great opport
37 Gemuser : To take this discussion in sort of another direction are there any carriers, other than Oz, NZ or US carriers who hold traffic rights non stop OZ-US?
38 Gigneil : No kidding it's about range. DFW - SYD is 8578 miles, or just short of the record distance of covered by the A345 between LAX and SIN. And far less th
39 NWAFA : I heard from Richard Anderson and he said that NWA is looking at NRT-SYD. Not right away (this year) but NWA is looking to go back into SYD...will not
40 Aa777jr : Just thought I saw a NW 744 at SYD when I was there in 2000. AA777jr
41 Jetjack74 : That was a charter for the 2000 Olympic games. the aircraft was a 200. It was ship# 6642.
42 ZK-NBT : Would AC hold Traffic rights to be able to fly SYD-LAX non-stop? From AKL i'm pretty sure that AC and SQ can fly AKL-LAX non-stop, though neither ever
43 Stirling : If NW goes back to SYD, will it be more substantual than what they did in '92? SYD-HNL 742 Fri SYD-LAX 744 Mon/Wed/Sat SYD-OSA 744 Tue/Thu/Sun HNL-SYD
44 Post contains images ConcordeBoy : Of course its not the closest Skyteam hub, but if you wanted to help anyone you could have mentioned the closer ones. ...thanks for saving me the rebu
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